ASRA Thunderbike rule changes........

[ahastings]

There was some talk this past weekend at Summit about some big rule changes coming for the Thunderbike class. Anybody hear anything. The speculation I was hearing was a possible change to more of a Supertwins type format, since it is a class that is highly supported by Buell and would give them a National Series to showcase the new 1125R. Inquiring minds want to know.

[badmonkey]

its pretty much a Buell show anyway so no big surprise there...

[Super Dave]

I think that would be unfortunate.  I think the current structure is interesting.  Yeah, if they did go to a new format, I could potentially race my SV1000 in it, but I think the SV650's, the BMW's, and Buell's make it interesting. 

Yeah, it's a Buell show...because the Buell dealers are supporting a lot of riders in it.  Where are the Suzuki dealers supporting competitive guys on SV650's?

[ahastings]

An SV 650 is not competetive with a Buell. And Buell posts major contingency which makes up for the fact that the ASRA payouts are pitiful. I finished 5th at Summit on what is considered a very fast SV and won $100 from ASRA and $50 from suzuki. I am not knocking the fact that it is a buell dominated class, I think it is great the way they support the sport. In fact I might look hard at one next year the way they pay especially if I can find a nice Harley dealer to help me out.

[xseal]

The only change I would make to the current format is they HP/weight ratio should be based on a combined rider/bike weight. If you really want to make the races equal, you can't have equal bikes with riders that have 50-60 lb differences in weight.

This is how F1 and many spec car/cart classes works.  Instead of 4lb/HP bike, how about 5.5lb/hp combined?  I think that would increase the competitiveness of the class, and if there is one class you should do it in, this one makes the most sense.  

I don't think they should include watercooled liter twins in the class, that will end up being another unlimited class, with 1098s running the show.

[Eric Kelcher]

There are changes being discussed but not quite that major, most of the changes discussed are to include other brands like the Ducatis and Suzukis, while holding with current limit on the Buells.
The field is very tight as is and we do not want to mess with the speed or power of the field but if we can inculde other bikes that can fit that same current mold without destroying what exists is the goal. The problem becomes that some bikes are better at some tracks IE high speed tracks/bikes and others are more technical tracks/bikes. So we are looking for some input.

[George_Linhart]

I would also agree with suggesting that it moves to a combined bike/rider weight to BHP ratio.  This is going to be the only way to create a level playing field for those of us with "big bones."

Its a pretty competitive class right now between the Buells, Ducati's and SVs with the occasional BMW thrown in the mix.  I can't think of many bikes that "fit the spirit" of the class (and that we frequently see at the track) that could be added while keeping it competitive (unless there was some kind of additional weight handicap like what has been done with the F2).

George

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

How about put an age limit on it? Make a rule it has to fall in the current rules but be at least 5yrs old.

[Ducmarc]

that makes my 748 illegal but i asked for the 749 to be legalized last year. as it stands I spend my time hording 748 parts with are 5 to seven years old why not use the moto st rules.

[Team Spalding]

Leave it how it is.

[ahastings]

I think the format is prettty good but maybe if the power to weight was reduced a little maybe to 4.2 to 4.5 lbs per hp. that way the Buells wouldn't have to be built to their usual grenade status and some other bikes would be a little more competitive.

[Super Dave]

why not use the moto st rules.

Which one?  There are three classes.

[Chris G.]

I know I had a great time at the last two Summit rounds being the closest track to me and my first expert year. Building my Sport Classic Ducati for fun and to offer another appeal on the grids and the paddock after looking at the same thing on a different day every year after running SV's and GSXR's.

I only hope Eric and the rest look at small guys like me trying to get others involved with CCS because of the current rules. That said,  I found I had more fun with CCS, then WERA in the classes I can run my air cooled Duc with laced spokes and all, and there seems to be more Ducati's there as well which for me is nice to share similar things with.

I run for fun, no money, no contingency-and just enjoy being there-shoot, just having Arnie in front of me, Kern, Estok, and the rest last Saturday...being as slow as I am- my dreams already came true.


Oh, and Arnie... you rock

[PJ]

An SV 650 is not competetive with a Buell.

Umm. Apparently, somebody forgot to tell Mr. Ed Key this. I'll bring it up with him this weekend and see if he can slow it down a bit. Maybe add 150lbs. of ballast or something...

::)

[benprobst]

I hear ya PJ. but the truth is, Ed has THE fastest and best sorted SV in the whole damn country and maybe the whole damn world for that matter. He is also undoubtedly one of the 5 best LW riders in the country. He also weighs 125lbs in the wet, with his leathers on  And yes he has been competitive even dominant at times, but it seems the Buells have been slowly getting there act together, closing the gap on the hp/weight limited class and are now maybe a little too good for the sv's to run with under the current rules. I mean look at this year, Ed has had rough year, he probably isnt at 100% post being Nate'ed at Daytona. All it takes is him being off his game a little and he cant quite get the job done. If the rules make it so 4 above average guys on above average bikes (vs. other buells/bmws) can run competitivly every weekend while one of the best guys on the best bike (vs. other sv's) needs only a hiccup to drop out of contention what does that tell you?

[Ducmarc]

I guess the permier class dave isn't that st which most of the current bikes would be legal? I don't have the rule book.

[benprobst]

I guess the permier class dave isn't that st which most of the current bikes would be legal? I don't have the rule book.

motost rules would be a MILE off. in moto st, sv's are the bottom class, buells are the middle class, and bmw's sv1000 and prillers are the top class. you would have to add hundreds of pounds of balast to make the sv meet the class rules for the bmw and the bmw would need to shop a cylinder and half its frame off to meet the buells rules. none of the class rules work for cross over, not even close.

[ahastings]

Umm. Apparently, somebody forgot to tell Mr. Ed Key this. I'll bring it up with him this weekend and see if he can slow it down a bit. Maybe add 150lbs. of ballast or something...

::)

I do pretty well on an SV myself. I have run 3 ASRA rounds this year finished 3rd , 5th  and crashed out of 2nd . I weigh 170 lbs and don't have an SV the caliber of ED's I am sure. I ran under the old Thunderbike lap record at Summit last weekend, but the Buells still sucked the paint off me going down the front straight. i am not complaining, Buell supports the class very well. I would just like to see the horsepower level lowered a little to help even the playing field so it doesn't cost so much to be competetive. How much money do you think is invested in those fast Buells and Nate's BMW and Ed's SV ? Thunderbike should be a low budget class that doesn't require that kind of an investment to be competetive.  Even the stock Buells arent even close. I don't have the budget of the Buell teams and the purse sure doesn't really pay anything.

[PJ]

I do pretty well on an SV myself. I have run 3 ASRA rounds this year finished 3rd , 5th  and crashed out of 2nd . I weigh 170 lbs and don't have an SV the caliber of ED's I am sure. I ran under the old Thunderbike lap record at Summit last weekend, but the Buells still sucked the paint off me going down the front straight. i am not complaining, Buell supports the class very well. I would just like to see the horsepower level lowered a little to help even the playing field so it doesn't cost so much to be competetive. How much money do you think is invested in those fast Buells and Nate's BMW and Ed's SV ? Thunderbike should be a low budget class that doesn't require that kind of an investment to be competetive.  Even the stock Buells arent even close. I don't have the budget of the Buell teams and the purse sure doesn't really pay anything.

Yep, you've done well on an SV Arnie, which I assume is CCS LWSB spec legal. So did David Yaakov and Darren Danilowicz a couple of seasons ago. Mike Barnes won the Thunderbike race at Daytona on a mildly tuned SV. Derek Keys, Mike Mills and Brian Lacy were also competitive on CCS-spec SVs in F-USA/ASRA Thunderbike. It can be done.

Ben is right that Ed's bike is probably better sorted than any other SV on the planet. Hell, he has to add a bunch of weight to make it legal for ASRA Thunderbike. Try racing him in CCS-spec trim with a LWSB legal Buell!

Nate's BMW and Danny and Dave's Buells are pretty well developed too (congrats on winning the championship Dave!). I don't believe their Buells are LWSB legal due to displacement, but Nate's BMW, I think, is. These bikes are pretty exotic weapons.

And that's the point, I guess. The ASRA Pro Thunderbike series is supposed to be a national, professional class, not a low budget class. If you want to run up front, your bike, no matter what brand you're on, is gonna need development and lots of it. That gets expensive, which is why Buell offers a $10,000 purse per event, plus a championship winning bonus.

[PJ721]

I'm guessing we can have different rules for ASRA T-Bike and leave CCS T-bike as is?

The ASRA T-bike race at Summit last weekend was probably the best race of the event....if not all season..

just look at the lap times...

http://laptimes.dorightsoftware.com/laptimes/scripts/Laptimes.aspx?competitorID=-1&raceID=722

sort out by clicking on "laptimes" until fastest lap is at top...

[Team Spalding]

I'm with PJ721, leave the CCS T-bike as is. The guys racing CCS T-bike are also using the same bike for the LW classes and currently in the Mid-west there are very few(maybe one Buell) that are leading these classes. Most current class leaders are on SVs. So saying that it is "mostly a Buell show anyway" is just not true. Actually it is just the opposite, at least in the Mid-west it is the SVs that are leading almost every class including T-bike. The guys racing ASRA T-bike are using highly modified bikes and race mostly ASRA not CCS.

[ahastings]

Yep, you've done well on an SV Arnie, which I assume is CCS LWSB spec legal. So did David Yaakov and Darren Danilowicz a couple of seasons ago. Mike Barnes won the Thunderbike race at Daytona on a mildly tuned SV. Derek Keys, Mike Mills and Brian Lacy were also competitive on CCS-spec SVs in F-USA/ASRA Thunderbike. It can be done.

Ben is right that Ed's bike is probably better sorted than any other SV on the planet. Hell, he has to add a bunch of weight to make it legal for ASRA Thunderbike. Try racing him in CCS-spec trim with a LWSB legal Buell!

Nate's BMW and Danny and Dave's Buells are pretty well developed too (congrats on winning the championship Dave!). I don't believe their Buells are LWSB legal due to displacement, but Nate's BMW, I think, is. These bikes are pretty exotic weapons.

And that's the point, I guess. The ASRA Pro Thunderbike series is supposed to be a national, professional class, not a low budget class. If you want to run up front, your bike, no matter what brand you're on, is gonna need development and lots of it. That gets expensive, which is why Buell offers a $10,000 purse per event, plus a championship winning bonus.

That is why it is dominated by Buells, there just isn't any money in it for an SV rider . And Barnes won on an F-2 not an SV , that is why they changed it to 5 lbs per hp for 4 cylinder bikes. As far as Ed having to add weight I wish mine had that problem. My SV weighed 365 lbs and dynoed at 76 hp on the ASRA dyno. Which means my bike could have dropped 65 lbs or gained 15 more hp and I still would have been legal. But to get that much more would have cost me as much as I have in the bike right now and for what ? a chance to win an extra $200 maybe. Just not worth it.

[Super Dave]

Barney did win on an SV once too.

I don't think the Buell's are necessarily cheap to run.  Racing is expensive.  I don't think the BMW's have any extra contingency either. 

But I think the tire bills are still less than what it is on a 600.

[ahastings]

I don't necessarilly agree about the tire bills being cheaper. And saying because Barney won on an SV means they are competive is really not a point , that is just him. You are right the BMW has no contingency that is why there is only one running and it is well funded by a large dealer. Another thing about the suzuki contingency is that all the other SV paying races are under SS rules except Thunderbike, so you would have to have a bike built just for that that you couldn't run in any of the other Suz contingency races or the Suzuki Cup. I would love to be able to run a national series , but unfortunately there just is no money there to be won unless you are on a Buell, and even then the front running Buells are built so much to the limit that it costs a fortune to keep them running. I would be curious what the DNF percentage is on the Buells due to this. That is why I feel changing the pwr to weight could make the class a little more affordable and maybe bring in more competitors. Dave , you going to run the Suzuki Cup on your SV 1000? That race alone would pay for your trip to Atlanta. There are 3 races that weekend that pay for the SV 1000.

[Super Dave]

Three races?  As far as I know, my SV1000 is good for the SV1000 race.

As for Barney...LOL!  You brought him up.  Well, and rules were developed around his win.

[ahastings]

At the GNF for your SV1000 , you can ride the SV1000 cup race which has the large payout and pretty much everybody gets paid because there are never 20 riders in it, and if you have at least run one round with WERA you can also run Heavyweight Twins SS both Sportsman and National which both pay the normal Suzuki contingency payout. The Suzuki cup races they give you the check right at the banquet that night or if you don't go they mail it to you within a couple weeks.

[PJ]

With 17 podiums and 5 wins posted by 6 different Suzuki SV racers in Thunderbike nationals since 2004 (plus track records set on SVs that still stand at Daytona and Road America) it appers that the SV has been reasonably competitive.

What seems to have happened is that there are fewer and fewer competitive riders on SVs.

As you suggest, Arnie, the real issue here is support of the class. It makes no financial sense to race a Suzuki in ASRA Thunderbike. Conversely, with Buell paying $10,000 in contingency at every event, and paying back to 15th place, plus providing technical and parts support at all ASRA races, the field is deep with Buell racers.

I don't think anyone wants to see Thunderbike become a one brand class, but will a rule change bring support and continency from Suzuki, Ducati, BMW and others?

2007 ASRA Thunderbike Results to date
Summit Point 3rd Arnold Hastings (SV650)

2006 ASRA Thunderbike Results
Road America 1st place Ed Key (SV650)
Topeka 2nd place Ed Key (SV650)
Virginia 3rd place Arnold Hastings (SV650)

2005 F-USA Thunderbike Results
Daytona 1st place Michael Barnes (SV650)
Daytona 2nd place David Yaakov (SV650)
Road America 1st Ed Key (SV650)
Summit Point 3rd place David Yaakov (SV650)
Virginia 3rd place Darren Danilowicz (SV650)
Barber 3rd place David Yaakov (SV650)
Joliet 3rd place Ed Key (SV650)
Daytona 1st place Ed Key (SV650)

2004 F-USA Thunderbike Results
VIR 2nd place Derek Keys (SV650)
VIR 3rd place David Yaakov (SV650)
Loudon 3rd Rick Doucette (SV650)
Barber 1st David Yaakov (SV650)
Miami 2nd Ed Key (SV650)

[Super Dave]

...Qnd if you have at least run one round with WERA you can also run Heavyweight Twins SS both Sportsman and National which both pay the normal Suzuki contingency payout. The Suzuki cup races they give you the check right at the banquet that night or if you don't go they mail it to you within a couple weeks.

Yeah, I haven't had a WERA license in about fourteen years.  I won't be doing those other races.  WERA hasn't raced out this way in a long, long time. 

[firebolt]

Being a Buell fan and a Moto Guzzi racer, I would like to see Asra adopt AHRMA BOT F1 rules. I love the "unlimited" mods and displacement rule for air cooled pushrodders! Like Euro BOTT rules. This to me would encourage Buell, BMW, and hopefully Moto Guzzi, to stay in and join the fray. I know for obvious marketing reasons, Buell wants the rules to include the 1125R. But I think I am going to disagree and say no. Leave the Buells old fashioned! It will sound better.  Thunder bike should be just that. "Shake down the thunder from the sky" Regards, Dan USCRA #459 Moto Guzzi

[ahastings]

AHRMA BOT F! rules allow water cooled twins over 900cc under Supersport rules don't they? If that were the case then the Air cooled Buells and Guzzis wouldn't have a chance.The class is pretty much that now with water cooled twins limited to 750cc.  I think another good alternative for ASRA if the schedule will allow would be to add a Supertwins National class alongside the Thunderbike. Especially if they could get contingency support from Suzuki, Ducati, Aprilia, Buell, BMW for such a class.

[xseal]

I'm telling you, the way to even things out is to account for rider weight. Ed Key has a 100hp, 300lb SV, and he weighs 130. 

If you want to make different bikes competitive, worry less about configuration and more about COMBINED hp/weight ratio. Seriously, if the total package is 5.5 hp/lb (or whatever is reasonable), then who cares if its a Buell, SV, in-line 4 or whatever. I don't want to change the spirit of the class (something other than the ubiquitous in line 4s), but if you want the race to come down to rider skill, you go to spec tires and a combined rider/bike hp/weight ratio.  If that is equal, then all that's left is skill.

I have a well built Ducati that is almost as fast as the Buells. I spent a lot money to get it there and I'm finally competitive in LW classes b/c my hp to overall weight ratio is close to Arnies and others (he's still much faster, but also weighs 40 lbs less). To decrease the power rules is crazy. Increase the weight requirement instead ... and make it combined. What's the matter, all you little guys scared of us x-football players?

[ahastings]

I agree, a combined formula would equal things out more for sure.

[badmonkey]

5 wins in 4 years is not competitive sorry... everything is hp to weight but nobody looks at the torque. A mildly built sv may push 52-55  lb ft of torque while the buells are pushing 90+ . Thats slightly more than a 1000 inline 4 NOT... its a lot more. what drives you out of the corner better hp or torque? If you make any change make it combined rider and bike weight. Ok let the jabs begin

[ahastings]

The only problem with using combined weight is then nobody will be able to touch Bemisderfer.....

Ray , Where you been this year?

[badmonkey]

Home     ...LOL Will be at VIR this weekend. Kinda took this year off. Needed a break.  I've  seen you been having fun..

[Super Dave]

The only problem with using combined weight is then nobody will be able to touch Bemisderfer...

Well, that wouldn't be terrible. 

I'd enjoy racing my SV1000 in Thunderbike, if the rules made it equitable. 

[xseal]

The only problem with using combined weight is then nobody will be able to touch Bemisderfer.....

Truthfully, you'll be another one of those guys for whom it just won't matter Arnie ... but all we can do with the rules is try to make it closer ... the fast guys will still get away ...

[F2RGK]

its pretty much a Buell show anyway so no big surprise there...

Not unless you're running a Honda F2!  I just hate it when I take Buell Money! 

[Russell Masecar]

I've never understood, since the implementation of the 4lbs/hp rule, why the class isn't open to any TWIN that complies.

1098/999/916/749/748, RC51, TLR, BUELL 1125, BMW, APRILIA, SV....whatever.  As long as your bike doesn't weigh less than 4x it's hp, let her rip.

A 120hp Ducati or Honda or Suzuki (on Factory dyno) would have to weigh 480lbs.  What's wrong with letting those bikes in if you want to add the weight and wrestle it around or vice-versa choke the power to meet the criteria?

I personally don't care for the old inline 4's being allowed at all, but if you're going to let in any inline 4's based on power-to-weight, why limit it to older models.  You'd have to add a ridiculous amount of weight to even a modern 600, but if that's what you choose to do, and it meets the power-to-weight requirement, then why exclude them.  Even inline 1000s, for that matter.

The power-to-weight rule is good, but I think more variety of competitive machinery would be nice.

[ScubaSteve]

Barney did win on an SV once too.

I don't think the Buell's are necessarily cheap to run.  Racing is expensive.  I don't think the BMW's have any extra contingency either. 

But I think the tire bills are still less than what it is on a 600.

He didn't win he blew them away! He was running the SV i was running which was mills. He ran that race for me after I broke my neck. That SV was a blast and I gave Key a run at ROC's

[Super Dave]

Right, Barney blew them away. 

[banzai1]

Well, that wouldn't be terrible. 

I'd enjoy racing my SV1000 in Thunderbike, if the rules made it equitable. 

Until I come pull off one plug wire.

[Super Dave]

LOL!  I might have that problem already...

[banzai1]

Not unless you're running a Honda F2!  I just hate it when I take Buell Money! 

Or when my skirt comes off with my FZR.

[banzai1]

LOL!  I might have that problem already...

I was looking for that evil smiley, but couldn't find one.