G1 Sv Won't stay Running.

Started by EM JAY, September 11, 2007, 12:28:25 PM

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EM JAY

  I have an 01 with flatslides and the G2 intake swap. The bike  doesn't
start unless I have almost full throttle and then back it off a bit once it
does start. Won't stay running unless I hold the throttle open  either.   My
trouble shooting so far has been to check the plugs, drain the bowls, new  gas >>> adjusted the idle high, and just a general cleaning of the   carbs.   All
to no avail. Battery is charged also. With the tank up while starting it
seems like there is a lot of fuel kind of "misting" from the carbs. Also a  slight smell of oil? Any ideas???
Michael Jordan
           CCS EX #??   ASRA #??
   01 SV Midwest
  Thanks to Expert Racing Ltd. in Chicago and Madness Custom Choppers of Fox Lake

EX_#76

Quote from: EM JAY on September 11, 2007, 12:28:25 PM
  I have an 01 with flatslides and the G2 intake swap. The bike  doesn't
start unless I have almost full throttle and then back it off a bit once it
does start. Won't stay running unless I hold the throttle open  either.   My
trouble shooting so far has been to check the plugs, drain the bowls, new  gas >>> adjusted the idle high, and just a general cleaning of the   carbs.   All
to no avail. Battery is charged also. With the tank up while starting it
seems like there is a lot of fuel kind of "misting" from the carbs. Also a  slight smell of oil? Any ideas???


I am assuming that there are not any misassembled parts in the carbs or wrong cam timing and or carb jetting. 

Check to make sure the orings are not damaged on the intake boots.
Check to make sure both carbs are fully seated in the intake boots.
Check to make sure the intake spicot on the flat slides is tight.
Make sure the air bleeds on the back of the carbs are clean (they look like little jets)
Visually check the carb sync by rolling on the throttle.
Check for a damaged or dirty inlet needle and seat.
Check the float level, Sudco can tell you what your baseline setting should be.

If you can not find anything wrong with the carbs I would look at your cam timing.

Did you remember to rotated the crank counter clock wise 360 degrees before moving on to the rear cylinder?

Did you move your old intake cams to the exhaust side?  That requires adjustable cam sprockets and an exercise in degreeing them in.

Report back with your findings

Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

SV88

Guy & EM:  This bike has run very well before so I think that it may be an intermittent issue as opposed to design/installation issue such as cam timing or such.  Flat slides are known to be very finicky indeed.  Try your stock carbs to rule out fuel or ignition issues.    Can the stock carbs be rejetted sufficiently to handle the new cams?
Remember that the weather has changed dramatically so you may be running leaner (colder denser air) which would explain why you have to keep the throttle open so much...

Hope this helps..
Fastsv650/SVR6/Steve sv23
09R6rdrace,13KTM250xc enduro,03SV1000N, 99-02 sv650 project
ret. CCS MW/FL/SE 88  Moto A SSP 881

backMARKr

MMMmmmm....I think it may be the kanooo valve...or possibly the muffler bearings :biggrin:



( I apologize, Mike....it's the end of the day and I have had enough of the children :banghead:)
NFC Racin',Woodcraft, Pitbull,M4, SUDCO,Bridgestone
WERA #13

EM JAY

Thanks will look into today and report back.   :thumb:
Michael Jordan
           CCS EX #??   ASRA #??
   01 SV Midwest
  Thanks to Expert Racing Ltd. in Chicago and Madness Custom Choppers of Fox Lake

benprobst

Quote from: EX_#76 on September 11, 2007, 02:23:43 PM
Did you move your old intake cams to the exhaust side?  That requires adjustable cam sprockets and an exercise in degreeing them in.



Nothing to do with the actuall question. I just like pointing out when Guy is wrong because he beat me last time I raced him, haha. buuuuuuutttttttt, you dont need adj cam sprockets to move the intake cam to the exhaust side you can do it with making/marking the "3" mark in the correct position on your old intake/new exhaust cam.
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Home of the GSXR 565

resurection

#6
Checked plugs ?
If you thought bad gas I'd stick with it and replace plugs .
3 or 4 bikes this year just bad GAS,fouled plugs.
Also check petcock diaphram ,and throttle sensor.

Guy
you gota check the cam swap thing it's easy and cheap just one cam.
Alittle strange installing what seems so wrong ,but it works


resurection

#7
I believe it ran fine after the swap ,if I'm not mistaken you had the wrong size carbs at first but valley swapped for correct size and it ran very well on Dyno.
Is this the bike were discussing?
I think I know the guys that put it together hhmmmmmm.

EM JAY

Quote from: resurrection on September 11, 2007, 11:47:20 PM
I believe it ran fine after the swap ,if I'm not mistaken you had the wrong size carbs at first but valley swapped for correct size and it ran very well on Dyno.
Is this the bike were discussing?
I think I know the guys that put it together hhmmmmmm.

Yep, ran great after the carbs were set up, it just started so I don't think it has to do with that.  Haven't had a crash yet this year so there is nothing there either....gotta go with the guys that did the cam swap, I think they have thier shit pretty much together!   :thumb:   I haven't tried "new" plugs but will be picking them up today after work.  So far this year I've been using just the stock #8 plugs...any advantage of using something other if I'm using VP?    Have not checked the petcock, will double check the throttle sensor...(counter clock right?) 
Michael Jordan
           CCS EX #??   ASRA #??
   01 SV Midwest
  Thanks to Expert Racing Ltd. in Chicago and Madness Custom Choppers of Fox Lake

EX_#76

Quote from: benprobst on September 11, 2007, 05:19:19 PM
Nothing to do with the actuall question. I just like pointing out when Guy is wrong because he beat me last time I raced him, haha. buuuuuuutttttttt, you dont need adj cam sprockets to move the intake cam to the exhaust side you can do it with making/marking the "3" mark in the correct position on your old intake/new exhaust cam.

Well then one good turn deserves another.  Technically I beat you the last 8 times we raced LOL!!!

On the serious side, how do you determine where to accurately place the #3 mark?

Guy
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

EM JAY

Quote from: EX_#76 on September 12, 2007, 01:12:47 PM
Well then one good turn deserves another.  Technically I beat you the last 8 times we raced LOL!!!

On the serious side, how do you determine where to accurately place the #3 mark?

Guy
The method was actually off another forum maybe Svrider.com I think....  Went thru the entire step by step method, pictures too (that was a good thing) on how the lobs and everything should look.   Well, it looked easy for me cuz I just watched....
Michael Jordan
           CCS EX #??   ASRA #??
   01 SV Midwest
  Thanks to Expert Racing Ltd. in Chicago and Madness Custom Choppers of Fox Lake

EX_#76

Quote from: EM JAY on September 12, 2007, 01:31:58 PM
The method was actually off another forum maybe Svrider.com I think....  Went thru the entire step by step method, pictures too (that was a good thing) on how the lobs and everything should look.   Well, it looked easy for me cuz I just watched....

Cool!! thanks man, I'll have a look
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

benprobst

Quote from: EX_#76 on September 12, 2007, 01:12:47 PM
Well then one good turn deserves another.  Technically I beat you the last 8 times we raced LOL!!!

On the serious side, how do you determine where to accurately place the #3 mark?

Guy

yup, youve had my number at Blackhawk in the past. You should try running other tracks sometime. :kicknuts:  :biggrin:  :blahblah: haha, ive got pics and numbers of where to place the three mark, its real simple. everything else stays the same, still 16 pins between marks etc.... To be honest I think for racing applications the timing could be a little better. We are getting a little more overlap at sustained high RPM then we would like, but the things work so damn good everywhere else its not worth messing with. You should look into it, its actually marginally hotter than the yosh cams, the 03 intake is identical to the yosh intake and the 99 intake is slight hotter (not sure lift or duration or both) than the yosh exhaust. It has worked well for us.
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Home of the GSXR 565

EX_#76

Quote from: EM JAY on September 12, 2007, 01:31:58 PM
The method was actually off another forum maybe Svrider.com I think....  Went thru the entire step by step method, pictures too (that was a good thing) on how the lobs and everything should look.   Well, it looked easy for me cuz I just watched....

I didn't see the post on SVrider, if you find it, please post a link
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

EM JAY

 I'm not telling you nothin till my bike is running again   :ass:   :biggrin:
Michael Jordan
           CCS EX #??   ASRA #??
   01 SV Midwest
  Thanks to Expert Racing Ltd. in Chicago and Madness Custom Choppers of Fox Lake

resurection

Quote from: EX_#76 on September 12, 2007, 01:12:47 PM
Well then one good turn deserves another.  Technically I beat you the last 8 times we raced LOL!!!

On the serious side, how do you determine where to accurately place the #3 mark?

Guy

Let the numbers go ,set cams like manual drawing, count chain .
Front lines up ,check Clarance if it's good you got it right

resurection

Em thanks for the kind words please call if we can help.

EM JAY

Quote from: resurrection on September 13, 2007, 12:12:12 AM
Em thanks for the kind words please call if we can help.
No problem!  You guys helped me a ton!

I talked to Nick tonight, he was kinda busy tho.... said not much he could do over the phone but suggested maybe the (damn forgot what he called it now) jet thats inside the bowl.  Dunno.   Looks like I may be taking a trip to Valley tomorrow....
Michael Jordan
           CCS EX #??   ASRA #??
   01 SV Midwest
  Thanks to Expert Racing Ltd. in Chicago and Madness Custom Choppers of Fox Lake

SV88

Quote from: benprobst on September 12, 2007, 10:02:49 PM
yup, youve had my number at Blackhawk in the past. You should try running other tracks sometime. :kicknuts:  :biggrin:  :blahblah: haha, ive got pics and numbers of where to place the three mark, its real simple. everything else stays the same, still 16 pins between marks etc.... To be honest I think for racing applications the timing could be a little better. We are getting a little more overlap at sustained high RPM then we would like, but the things work so damn good everywhere else its not worth messing with. You should look into it, its actually marginally hotter than the yosh cams, the 03 intake is identical to the yosh intake and the 99 intake is slight hotter (not sure lift or duration or both) than the yosh exhaust. It has worked well for us.

Yeah Guy is pretty fast @ BHF but other tracks.... I was following him @ RA when Shaeffer went down hard in front of both of us after T6 - Guy freaked a bit which enabled me to pass him.  He passed me back on the front straight and then I got him back when he forgot to brake and or turn for T5.  These experts aren't that fast except on the straight where the Bartz ram air takes over!!

In all fairness, Guy was a little freaked that weekend but he looked great in the rain @ BHF last weekend.  I got a great view after cutting a couple of 1:30s in the rain and losing it exiting T6.
Fastsv650/SVR6/Steve sv23
09R6rdrace,13KTM250xc enduro,03SV1000N, 99-02 sv650 project
ret. CCS MW/FL/SE 88  Moto A SSP 881

EM JAY

 Your not allowed to post anything unless you add something to help trouble shoot my bike. 
:blahblah:

:spank:
Michael Jordan
           CCS EX #??   ASRA #??
   01 SV Midwest
  Thanks to Expert Racing Ltd. in Chicago and Madness Custom Choppers of Fox Lake

EX_#76

#20
Quote from: SV88 on September 13, 2007, 11:38:18 AM
Yeah Guy is pretty fast @ BHF but other tracks.... I was following him @ RA when Shaeffer went down hard in front of both of us after T6 - Guy freaked a bit which enabled me to pass him.  He passed me back on the front straight and then I got him back when he forgot to brake and or turn for T5.  These experts aren't that fast except on the straight where the Bartz ram air takes over!!

In all fairness, Guy was a little freaked that weekend but he looked great in the rain @ BHF last weekend.  I got a great view after cutting a couple of 1:30s in the rain and losing it exiting T6.

Other tracks....  Freaked out?   :wtf: I was avoiding running a fellow competitor over who was tumbling in front of me.  :ahhh: :ahhh:  The fact that you caught me must mean that you are the metric for sucking.  :lmao:  Do you remember me telling you that my front end was chattering so hard I couldn't see?  kinda hard to go fast without any corner speed.   :banghead:  I don't remember telling you how much you sucked when I was lapping your ass in a sprint race.  Weren't you were coming to me seeking advice on how you could get faster?   :finger: :finger:

Well, I feel better now :thumb:
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

SV88

Wow I didn't realize that you'd react that way to a little gentle ribbing.  No intention of offending but clearly I did, so I'm apoligizing.

I guess humor is best left off of forums....
Fastsv650/SVR6/Steve sv23
09R6rdrace,13KTM250xc enduro,03SV1000N, 99-02 sv650 project
ret. CCS MW/FL/SE 88  Moto A SSP 881

dylanfan53

Guy,
PM me you e-mail address and I'll send some notes that I scarfed off the SV racers list.  It's probably stuff you already know but maybe there's something you'll find interesting.
Don Cook
CCS #53

resurection

EM
Nick must have meant low speed jets ,if the bike sat for some time they may be clogged .
I can set you straight on that, 1hr job call @7082693102 for appointment

GSXR RACER MIKE

Problem solved, see the U4 thread concerning this subject.  :thumb:
Smites are a cowards way of feeling brave!   :jerkoff:
Mike Williams - 2 GSXR 750's
Former MW Region Expert #58
Racing exclusively with CCS since '96
MODERATOR

resurection

#25
ED is all that but.
maybe good advise has a deaf ear?
These guys are so busy thread jacking the don't read posts with good advice

EM JAY

 Yep...simple solution...just needed the guidence!  Ed was on hand and talked me thru my virgin uncloging...or something like that... 

Big thanks for real Ed!
Michael Jordan
           CCS EX #??   ASRA #??
   01 SV Midwest
  Thanks to Expert Racing Ltd. in Chicago and Madness Custom Choppers of Fox Lake

grasshopper

#27
So it was the low speed jets just like I told you or what?

Oh and by the way, when someone posts a problem like this I find it difficult to understand why people go with a complicated solution immediately. For example, the cams being off. I understand why that was brought up because Em Jay said that he had the cam swap done. I actually did the cam swap, double and triple checked the markings and timing and it was dead nuts on. After the swap and carb install the bike was brought down to Valley Racing for carb tune and dyno run and it was a running little son of bitch... 89 hp with 39mm flat slides and 03+ cam swap. Pretty damn good.

Again... So it was the low speed jets just like I told you or what?


grasshopper

Here are the markings for the 03+ cam swap. Follow along in the Suzuki manual exactly like it says to install the cams except use the marking on the picture for the old intake cams you are installing on the exhaust side.

What you need to do is order the front and rear 03+ intake cams. Install the 03+ intake cams exactly like the 99-02 SV manual says. The markings are identical. Take the old intake cams and install on the exhaust side with the marking on the picture. The new markings (in red) are where the markings are normally on the stock exhaust cams.

We have done this mod on 5 motors and it straight up makes the motor rip all throughout the rev range. It's not a bad idea to get a degree wheel out, but you can't adjust them anyway with out pressing new adjustable cam sprockets on. I have never had a problem with the timing being off and I beat the living shit out of all my SVs. Long track days, tons of street riding, burnouts, wheelies and racing. Never had a problem with this cam swap. Do it. 100 bucks per cam. 200 dollar mod. 5 to 6 hp gain.


grasshopper

#29
That picture above kind of sucks, here's a better one. Where the arrow is on the cam is where the dowl of the cam chain should be and you count the specified number of dowls from the specified mark on the exhaust cam to the specified mark on the intake cam.


grasshopper

Oh one other thing. If you ever get the 1st gen cams mixed up with the 2nd gen cams observe the markings on the dark part of the cam in the center of the sprocket.

A,B,C,D - 1st gen

E,F,G,H - 2nd gen

EX_#76

Quote from: grasshopper on September 21, 2007, 11:01:16 AM
So it was the low speed jets just like I told you or what?

Oh and by the way, when someone posts a problem like this I find it difficult to understand why people go with a complicated solution immediately. For example, the cams being off. I understand why that was brought up because Em Jay said that he had the cam swap done. I actually did the cam swap, double and triple checked the markings and timing and it was dead nuts on. After the swap and carb install the bike was brought down to Valley Racing for carb tune and dyno run and it was a running little son of bitch... 89 hp with 39mm flat slides and 03+ cam swap. Pretty damn good.

Again... So it was the low speed jets just like I told you or what?



Ed said it was the pilot jets.  I stated in my first post that I am assuming everything in the carb is OK.  I did not realize that MJay did not know how to dismantle and clean his carbs (no offence dude).  He also did not state that someone other than he did the cam swap until a later post (again no offence).  So I thought that there may be a chance the cam timing was off.  Then we thread jacked and forgot about MJay altogeather.
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

grasshopper

It's all good brotha! Em Jay called me before he even started this thread and told me what was going on. I told him to clean the pilot jets out. He must have had fluff in his ear.  :err:

So what's new Guy? Wanna go ride some dirt this weekend?

How about the Slimey Crud Run, are you going to do that the first Sunday of October? Show me some good twisty Wisconsin roads man!

EX_#76

#33
Quote from: grasshopper on September 21, 2007, 12:29:15 PM
It's all good brotha! Em Jay called me before he even started this thread and told me what was going on. I told him to clean the pilot jets out. He must have had fluff in his ear.  :err:

So what's new Guy? Wanna go ride some dirt this weekend?

How about the Slimey Crud Run, are you going to do that the first Sunday of October? Show me some good twisty Wisconsin roads man!

Nothings new, can't ride dirt, got plans.  Slimey Crud might work out.  I won't be much fun to ride with, I am a sally on the street.  I am sure you can relate, seems that trying to go fast (?) on a street bike just isn't that much fun.  Racing kinda took the thrill out of that.   Give me a call or fire me an Email.   Maybe you can get Key to pull that RZ of his out for a ride.
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

grasshopper

I'm going to try and get Gus (resurrection) to let me ride his custom CB750 cafe racer. It's a pretty cool machine.

Hmmm, a street ride with you and Ed Key, that outta be interesting.

EX_#76

Hey Ben,
I am a little confused about your post.  When you stated "We are getting a little more overlap at sustained high RPM then we would like" what did you mean?  More valve overlap is what you want to make upper end HP.  Did you mean you have a little more lobe separation than you want?  That would make more sense as you stated that it works so good everywhere else that its not worth messing with.  I am assuming that you meant that the bike is making good HP and or torque in the low to mid range RPM. 

     More valve overlap generally helps with scavenging at the cost of low-end power.  The loss of low rpm power is due to opening the intake valve before the blow down of the exhaust gasses is complete.  The small amount pressure that exists in the cylinder as the intake begins to open causes a reversion pulse in the intake track.  This early opening also causes a little over scavenging, pulling a little of the fresh intake charge out the exhaust.

Please shed a little light on this for me.

Talk with ya later
Guy   
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

benprobst

Hey Guy, I could very well be wrong, I dont have near the motorbuilding experience you and your crew have.

Having said that, I understand the need for a certain amount of overlap. However, I always imagined that at high RPM your explosions are closer together and have less time to complete their respective "burns" If your ex valves are opening too quickly it would result in the escape of unburnt fuel, resulting in a loss of PE(potential) long before it had the opportunity to turn into KE(kenetic).

Also like you stated, if the in valves are opening too soon they will get a slightly dirtier charge due to the back pressure from a racing exhaust. I realize you need the overlap, for both the reduction of intake pulse, and consistent exhaust velocity. But what I have noticed on the big superbike motor (as compared to the basically stock with adj sprockets motor which liked to rev to about 10200) is it is absolutly violent at about 7500-9000 RPM and above that it tends to wain just a bit asking for a shift before 9500, (fine with me, id much rather not overrev this thing, too much money in it already). That combined with slightly dirtier than usual intake tracks led me to believe we were maybe getting a little more overlap than I would like, but I suppose it could just be the big slugs dont like to spin as fast.
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