Point of Contact to Corner Work

Started by Kuala76, September 10, 2007, 12:52:05 PM

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Dr. Evil

I cornerwork at Summit Point when I can, but I live close to VIR.  I really haven't found "the path" to cornerworking at VIR or anyother track for that matter.  The only way I got hooked up at Summit Point was because of the MARRC website.

limy_1

I see a bunch of you posting on the WERA site today.

Anytime you want to work with WERA let Sean know.
Anytime you want to work with AHRMA let Cindy know.
I am sure the same holds true with CCS.

Look me up if you find your way to an AHRMA race or
a WERA North Central race.
Roger Preston
AHRMA Volunteer & Monkee
WERA Official

bambam

 great thread and lots of good information.  it seems as though maarc and usm are both in favor of making a standard system so why not start with you 2 and then go from there. of course it would be awesome if you could first get ccs and wera to have similar flags and / or get both of them to adopt the ama or fim standard. since there are really only 4 main groups ( fim ( moto gp and wsb) ama, ccs, and wera) and their affiliates that hold races in the US.  i would think that having a standard flag set nationwide would take miles out of the journey to a national corner working association.

just my $.02 worth  to go with a thank you for doing what you do so we can do what we do a little safer.

limy_1

WERA adopted the pickle flag last year but I don't see them using the blue flag anytime soon.
Remember that WERA is now AMA sanctioned for their National events.

AHRMA I don't think will ever adopt either of these flags and they are also AMA sanctioned.
Roger Preston
AHRMA Volunteer & Monkee
WERA Official

truckstop

Quote from: RoadRaceJunkie on October 23, 2007, 03:19:19 PM
My idea for lights is solely based on what would be ideal for the racers in each corner.  A system for hanging the lights at each track would have to be devised for each corner.  Pay enough humans to do flagging long enough and you've put in a light system.  I propose that local flags (lights) would be controlled by the workers on the corner or Race Control- as necessary.  The red from Race Control only.  A light pattern/system certainly could be configured so no racer could say "I didn't see the flag".

Hi y'all. Just tried out corner working for the first time this past weekend and so I've been poking around a bit since I hope to do it more often next season. Since I typically only race one race, and spend most of the weekend spectating, seems like actually doing something is a better idea. I know this is an old topic, but wanted to throw in my noob $.02.

For a little background, I'm a rider coach with STT, and CR for the BHF trackdays, mostly working with new riders and novices, and race ULWSB on a tiny old slow turd bike. I've been able to ride at quite a few different tracks in the Midwest and have been surprised in the difference in cornerworkers at different venues. Some of them over the past couple years have been trained better to handle motorcycles, and some still treat us like cars. I like the idea of standardized training, and coming up with a training platform to readjust car workers to dealing with bikes.

As a rider, I want the least number of flags possible. Four is enough.

The blue flag would be nice, but really? Its a distraction and can make things more dangerous. If a new rider tenses up thinking someone is coming, they're more likely to be unpredictable trying to get out of the way, instead of minding their own business so that the faster rider can pass. I've been lapped plenty by the fast guys, and they always manage to get it done before I even knew they were there.

As for its use along with the pickle flag in higher levels of racing, the riders have been at it longer, can process more information, and are supposedly more skilled - which is where I don't know if you can have a standardized set for all levels of racing.

Finally, as for the lights, wouldn't that be a cost incurred by the track? There are tracks out there that need to spend their money on *far* more important things than a light system. I also don't really think that lights would be any more visible than a waving flag. If a track can use lights, and can afford lights to augment flaggers, then cool - but as a rider, I'd rather see surface issues dealt with, or more air fence added, etc. and even if you add lights, you're still paying cornerworkers to work com, watch traffic, and run to pick up bikes, so there's not much of a cost savings there.

HAWK

Overhead lights would be missed more often. Our cornerworkers here in the midwest (I can't speak for other regions as I don't have that experience) are very good at flagging and are positioned in the corner stations to be in the line of sight as we enter the corner.
Paul Onley
CCS Midwest EX #413

limy_1

Since we are back at this again.

I worked the last WERA night endurance race (3:30 pm - 11:30 pm)
The track had lights for vision on the front straight only.
All of the bikes were required to have headlights and a solid tail light on by 7:30 pm.

Cornerworkers started the race with flags and ended the race with lights.
In reality it was quite easy. 

Each station had 1 car battery and two yellow lights (picture school bus).
The lights were switched on, flash & wig wag.
No lights - green track
If one light was steady - standing yellow.
If one light was flashing - waving yellow
If two lights were alternating (wigwag) - red flag.

Down, dirty & cheap but only works well at night.  :err:
Roger Preston
AHRMA Volunteer & Monkee
WERA Official

RoadRaceJunkie

My vision for using lights would come strictly from research into what would be best noticed by racing riders.  I'm not talking about simply adding lights similar to what is currently used by car racing that might be less visible than flags.  I'm thinking there are much better ways to get the rider's attention than what is done currently.   And, of course, any system would probably be track infrastructure.   
With new procedures looming on the horizon for DMG/AMA racing, along with new risk management ideas seemingly being moved to implementation, it is time to make the whole effort more scientifically objective.  The days of "sounds like a good idea, we'll try that" need to be replaced by empirical development.

Ed

SLP007

Hi, Anyone looking to Corner work at Palm Beach International Raceway formerly Moroso Motorsports Park and Homestead please Contact Steve Pope cell (772)807-0925 email at popestephenl@bellsouth.net

Expat2b

#33
Quote from: RoadRaceJunkie on October 07, 2008, 04:48:21 PM
With new procedures looming on the horizon for DMG/AMA racing, along with new risk management ideas seemingly being moved to implementation, it is time to make the whole effort more scientifically objective.  The days of "sounds like a good idea, we'll try that" need to be replaced by empirical development.

All - You have detailed a complex set of management problems that needs a viable business model and could benefit greatly from technology support. I couldn't help but notice the parallels in this discussion to my present line of work in Healthcare Management so perhaps there is an opportunity to model another industry in some aspects and not re-invent the wheel.

Scheduling corner workers is not unlike staffing a hospital with skilled healthcare workers, especially areas like the operating room or emergency room where specialized resource competency is essential to safety. Standards in practice (physical assessment, medication administration, documentation, sterile technique) across different care domains (ortho, cardiac, neuro, oncology, OR, nursery) form the basis for good judgment which helps to improve safety and reduce errors. These and other areas of healthcare have seen widespread use of technology to manage the complexities of scheduling and decision support with great benefits to safety and operational management.

I agree with this discussion that standards in flagging would benefit safety in the racing domain however getting buy-in from all the relevant sanctioning bodies to a single standard will be an evolutionary process if it is feasible at all.  The cost/benefit of implementing change is always subject to debate when perceived risk and profit are involved. The opinions of this board could be voiced through advocacy and lobbying to influence changes in this regard.

Expanding corner worker education programs and offering advanced training at the local level are great ideas of course because they can be done now and increase the general competency within the pool of trained corner workers. I would imagine standards of corner worker practice would be easier to align across groups, and if agreement could be reached on standard roles and competencies, then a universal certification (basic/advanced/ASD/Control) would be possible which would enable more flexible scheduling of resources across geographic regions.

Event planning and Scheduling is a more complex multi-variable problem. With regard to worker placement, you have considerations such as worker competencies, preferences, availability, motivation, event requirements, logistics, budget, event popularity and interpersonal politics. Technology could help with most of this. Training and certification could mitigate the subjective questions of competency in scheduling. Successful recruitment and retention of trained corner workers needs a balance of monetary and non-monetary incentives and policies that don't necessarily have to be standardized but for each event should be fairly applied to everyone.  Just having a central registry would be a good place to start.

Now that we're into the winter months this is a good time to work on this. I am very interested and willing to work on a project to help facilitate the development of a management framework for a "Corner Marshall Safety Alliance" and help to evaluate and/or develop IT tools to help move us forward on this topic. 

If you would like me to assist please send me a PM with what you see to be the next steps.




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