Point of Contact to Corner Work

Started by Kuala76, September 10, 2007, 12:52:05 PM

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spyderchick

This is a great discussion. Is there someone who would be willing to step up and form a National sanctioning body for Cornerworkers?

Standards that could be implemented on a national level would allow for race and track day orgs to have the best trained crews out there on a consistent basis. Also, the dialogue would allow everyone to learn of potential issues and hopefully come up with the best strategies to solve problems.

Definitely keep up the effort. We all appreciate what you do!

Alexa Krueger
Spyder Leatherworks
414.327.0967
www.spyderleatherworks.com
www.redflagfund.org
Do or do not, there is no "try".

TheHiriser

Quote from: on your corner on September 20, 2007, 01:10:27 PM
I have always thought that not every cornerworker has the skills and/or temperament as well as the physical capability to do every job there is in cornerworking.  

After that, I think we need a rating system for workers.  Not everyone is capable of doing pick-up on a live track in racing traffic, not  everyone has that attention span to be the best flagger, few have the temperament and sensibilties to do race control. 

Some quick observations from my experience, which is no where near Ed's.  We don't have a rating system per say in MARRC.  However the person in charge of signing people up for corners each day does and will push someone in the general direction/position they are qualified for.  Our training does provide for every aspect of cornerworking but like Ed said not everyone is cut out for running onto a hot track with bikes coming straight at you.  We are lucky to have a very experienced core group of people we can spread out in the trouble spots.  We are also very lucky to have an ASD (Associate Safety Director) position which is basically a "super" cornerworker.  These guys and girls respond to every incident, make on the spot decisions on every aspect and coach where needed.  They don't take over a corner they visit but will if necessary.  Quite often you will find them in hot spots or working side by side with new recruits going over every aspect of that particular turn.

In regards to a national standard I don't see how this should be a problem at all.  Every racing sanctioning body is different with regards to rules and flags but if all cornerworkers were trained on all flags there shouldn't be a problem going from one body to another.  After all most if not all cornerworker organizations developed their standards most likely based on the racing orgs rules that come to their playground.  MARRC has one flag difference to deal with between CCS and WERA and that is only for solid versus liquid debris.

On the other hand, maybe also pushing towards the sanctioning bodies to also come together and develop a national standard set of flags and there purposes may be feasible.  On paper none of this seems like it should be all that difficult to accomplish but I'm old enough to know better on that one.

I'd love to see the USM handbook and how it differs from MARRC if at all.  I'll be looking forward to the updated site.


In Your Corner

Having the cornerworking organizations on one page would certainly make it easier to influence the racing organizations to standardize. I would think this would also be easier on racers who race more than one series as well.

Super Dave

Hey, I'll sticky this until it shakes out.

Great thread!
Super Dave

Suzy

Quote from: TheHiriser on September 20, 2007, 08:33:19 PM
On the other hand, maybe also pushing towards the sanctioning bodies to also come together and develop a national standard set of flags and there purposes may be feasible.  On paper none of this seems like it should be all that difficult to accomplish but I'm old enough to know better on that one.

I agree with you here 110%. There should be one standard training and flags for ALL Cornerworkers. Maybe some riders here on the forum who race more than one orginization can answer this question 'cause I'm curious.....

Does it get confusing? Do you forget which flag is which when racing, or in other words, do you forget who uses what flag?  :err:
2005 Rookie Corner Worker of the Year!

TheHiriser

Racers shouldn't get confused, after all they read the rule book for each org they race with front to back, right?   :biggrin:

Between CCS and WERA the only flag I'm aware of that is different is the Pickle flag for liquid debris/oil, which WERA uses.

The AMA uses one more flag than those two orgs which is the blue flag.  As far as what the cornerworkers use here is what they have from their rulebook.

b. Warning Flags / Lights
1. Yellow Flag with Red Stripes: Indicates debris, fluid or a potentially
hazardous situation on or near the track. Passing is allowed.
Exercise caution.
2. Lime Green with Black Stripes: Indicates the possibility of oil on
the track. Passing is allowed. Exercise caution.
3. Yellow Flag / Light
a. Stationary Yellow Flag: Indicates a potentially hazardous
situation on or near the track. Passing is allowed. Exercise
caution.
b. Waving Yellow Flag/Yellow Light: Indicates serious hazards
on or near the track. Proceed with caution. Passing is not
allowed from the flag stations displaying the waving yellow flag
until the rider is beyond the incident. Violations will be
determined from corner worker reports or other evidence
deemed appropriate by the Race Manager.
4. White Flag with Red Cross: Indicates that ambulances, safety
vehicles or emergency personnel are on the course. Exercise
caution.
c. Courtesy Flags
1. White Flag: Indicates the final lap of a race.
2. White and Green Flags Crossed: Indicates 1/2 total race distance.
3. Blue Flag: Indicates you are about to be overtaken by faster
riders. Hold your line and do not impede their progress. Riders
disregarding this flag may be black-flagged at the discretion of
Race Manager.


They also use the black flag but it would seem being displayed with a number board would mean it is only at Start/Finish.

6. Black Flag: Indicates a problem with your motorcycle or a
disqualification. Number board displayed with the flag indicates the
rider being signaled. Carefully reduce speed and stop at the first
suitable location off the course.


I would think since most (not all) riders at some point aspire to be in the AMA or dream about it why not push for their flags to be the standard.  If all the racing orgs were on the same page we would be forced to abide by their standards for flags, not the other way around.  They after all don't have to let us play with them.  This is just one aspect of the entire picture and the whole flag deal to me is a baby step but a step in the right direction and definitely a start.  The only flaw to this plan I see is if someone thinks there should be additional flags added in the rotation from what the AMA uses.

Now all CW orgs being trained on other aspects of race safety is a totally different animal and should be left entirely up to CW orgs.  I agree with what everyone else has already stated.  Our training above and beyond flags and general procedures is something that could be developed more thoroughly and standardized.  Maybe I'm naive but if a congress of CW orgs met once already to no avail what would make anyone think another meeting of the minds would work?  Was the purpose of that meeting specifically for what we are discussing now?  Or was this brought up in conjunction to the original purpose of the meeting?  I think if two or more of the bigger CW orgs banded together first and developed a comprehensive training package, others would most certainly follow if it became known as the standard.  I know of a couple smaller private groups that use MARRC's training as a prerequisite-requisite for working in their group.  They must complete our training and work with us a weekend before they are allowed to work for them on track.  Not tooting MARRC's horn but this further emphasizes if a "standard" was developed, others would follow. 

Maybe I'm not seeing the entire picture here but my only qualm about a "rating system" is if you rate someone a number and then fall short with worker turnout, how do you justify asking them to work in a position you previously stated they were not qualified for?  I understand this would help on a national level when going to tracks you aren't familiar with where CW orgs aren't familiar with you. I for one wouldn't want to have the highest rating and then be asked to work a track the first time in the highest rated zone because they were short the highest rating and yes I know I can always say no, I just don't like being put in those sort of situations where I'd feel like I'm letting someone down.  I like to be familiar with the track before I put myself into those sort of situations.  Doing a hot lap in a car or being handed a track map to me doesn't justify knowing the track.  It takes time to learn the different lines, speeds and other workings of each and every turn and even then things are never predictable.   I'm not suggesting different ratings for different tracks.  I just don't see how it would work flawlessly at this point.  I could be missing something and I'm not knocking it completely I do think it could be a good idea. Someone might have the answers and explanations to all my concerns that would make me change my mind.  I can see how it would be beneficial in knowing what you are getting when someone shows up out of the blue who doesn't have the same issues I'd have working an unknown track.

And for the record I am one of the ones that will step out onto a hot track with bikes coming at me.  Some say I'm insane and some say I've been lucky.  Every time I do it however I think of a million things in a split second.  A lot of my decision making process is based upon which group of riders is on track at that particular time.  With experts I tend to be more trusting.  Amateurs on track and I'm way more cautious.  Bike size and speeds also plays a big factor, which turn I'm in, all sorts of things.  A new track with riders I don't know?  I'd be less inclined to jump out there on good faith. 

Another .02 (I'll go broke keeping this up)

on your corner

All thoughtful points.  Good discussion. 

I always like defer to what the Pros are doing.  Up until the last 10 or 15 years the AMA had a pretty simple flag system.  Then some folks sorta decided on some changes without a real consensus from riders on what it is that is necessary and what is unnecessary as far as flags.  I don't agree with some flagging procedures of my own organization.  I think all groups and sanctioning bodies need to study what information the riders need and can process at speed on the racetrack.  I think, without a study like this having been done, that the FIM flagging system is good with the exception that there is no stationary yellow in FIM.  A stationary yellow, I feel, has its place when used judiciously.  Now as far as what would be judicious, that is what I seek to nail down for all the groups and sanctioning bodies.  I find that certain people can consistently be judicious and others can not. 

This is where a rating system comes in.  After ample opportunity to learn, someone on com. who cannot remain calm enough to report as an incident happens shouldn't be doing com.  Someone who is reluctant to go on to a hot track when it is reasonable to do so shouldn't be doing pickup.  Someone who is asleep at the flag staition when you need a waving yellow shouldn't be flagging.  For the same reasons that Paramedics can do more than EMTs, we need to have a system that can certify us for the jobs we do.  Without it we are treated as just warm bodies that may or may not be an asset to the racing.

If we are able to describe concisely what are the best practices and potential cornerworkers are able to learn these practices from reading the documents and live training, then we will be able to gain respect and status from consistently contributing to making the racing safer. 

My impression of the meeting years back was that it was just to see if the groups had any common ground for possibly standardizing what we do.  Everybody's got their opinion.  Without some study and some science it is only opinion.  The US Marshalls have found some practices and techniques over the last 35 years that seem to work well and we are in the process of documenting them in writing.  I'd love to see what every group does so that we can find common practices and techniques that the racing organizers and riders can agree might be the best practices and techniques.

Ed

Eric Kelcher

Well there are two flags I do not see a need for.

Blue flag means rider to hold your line, that is a rule and if it is not displayed the rider can be erratic ??? The response from most riders is exact opposite and even the encouraged response at AMA races.
This is not car races where the track width is sometimes an issue to making safe passes and is then a move over flag.


Green and Black flag, we will not race with oil on race surface

so those two flags wil not be utilized by CCS/ASRA with their current meanings.
Eric Kelcher
ASRA/CCS Director of Competition

RoadRaceJunkie

Agree that these flags are unnecessary.  Blue flagging just isn't practical with current operational procedures anywhere and many of those who need to heed the flag don't know how.  Never understood why an additional flag was necessary to indicate possible non-optimum traction.   The four basic flags were enough for me when I raced.  There's only so much information a racer needs and/or can process.  Need a University study or similar to learn what it is exactly that racers have to have and how best it be presented to them. 
I have always thought that flashing yellow and red lights, properly placed in each particular turn for best visibility and lighted picture signs- for the slippery flag and Ambulance flag would free a person from having to flag 100% of time and put 'em where they are needed more- in the corner picking up.  Addtionally there would be no false red flags if the red lights were solely controlled by Race Control.
Duh... some of these ideas seem like no-brainers that should have been adopted a long time ago.

Ed
RoadRaceJunkie
Changed screen name from "On Your Corner"

Woofentino Pugrossi

Ed thing about the light system is reliability. Also where to install the poles.

Sad thing is theres way too many racers who DONT either understand the current flags, nor actully follow them (ie someone getting a debris flag waveoff and just keeps going). We still have people passing under waving yellows AND reds. Honestly the flags for CCS are simple. I dont understand why some people just cant comprehend them.

Actually I miss the blue flag. Came in handy when I was out there on teh track and the leaders were coming up. I knew that I was gonna get lapped within 10-15 seconds.
Rob
CCS MW#14 EX, ASRA #141
CCSForums Cornerworking and Classifieds Mod

RoadRaceJunkie

#22
I compare what we do in club races and national races and then look at what the FIM does... Looks to me like every racer from every region has some differing ideas as to what the flags mean.  Rarely have I seen blue flags actually achieve the purpose- for a number of different reasons.  I would think the FIM would be the last word in what it is the racers need and want. But when I see a GP without a flag station in the proper place(s) I wonder who has a clue. 
My idea for lights is solely based on what would be ideal for the racers in each corner.  A system for hanging the lights at each track would have to be devised for each corner.  Pay enough humans to do flagging long enough and you've put in a light system.  I propose that local flags (lights) would be controlled by the workers on the corner or Race Control- as necessary.  The red from Race Control only.  A light pattern/system certainly could be configured so no racer could say "I didn't see the flag".

Ed


limy_1

I have been talking over on the advanced training thread and it was requested that I post over here  :spank: :spank: :spank:

Anyway I have been going on  :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: for the entire second page of that thread.

http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,18408.msg159473.html#new

There is good information about racing and working in Canada.
Flags are a little different but they are organized.
Roger Preston
AHRMA Volunteer & Monkee
WERA Official