Point of Contact to Corner Work

Started by Kuala76, September 10, 2007, 12:52:05 PM

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Kuala76

I was wondering if maybe we could start a "universal" list of points of contact for folks interested in corner working.  This board was how some of the MidWest folks met up with us East Coast folks to come and play!  This list would not only be helpful for those who are current workers who may find them selves in other regions, but would be great for anyone "new".  Maybe having the information readily available would cause more folks to inquire about getting involved.  I am not even sure there are actual organizations for other regions or if it is a track by track basis, but even a few tracks and contacts for them would be a great start!

1.  MARRC - www.marrc.org - Summit Point, WV - CCS and WERA events
Kumi
MARRC Corner Worker of the Year 2008
MARRC Vice President 2012
MARRC President 2013

TheHiriser

Surprised there has been no response to this thread.  I did find this but I'm not sure how accurate it is anymore. 

    US Marshalls is a non-profit educational group dedicated to state-of-the-art motorcycle road race safety.

    We develop, teach and practice road race safety techniques and disciplines as corner workers (a.k.a corner marshals) at Eastern US motorcycle road racing events, principally at the New Hampshire International Speedway at Loudon, NH (Loudon Road Racing Series - LRRS).
 
    Our Southeast Bureau, under the direction of veteran Safety Director Egor Emery, is involved in events at Daytona , Moroso Motor Sports Park, Homestead, Virginia International Raceway(VIR), Road Atlanta, and other Southeast tracks.


http://www.usmarshalls.org/

Simon

There is a list of cornerworker groups and road racing clubs on the MARRC website under "Racing Links". Don't know how comprehensive or accurate it is.
MARRC Cornerworker
CCS AM 48
Always in the gravel, one way or another!
www.marrc.org

TheHiriser

That is where I pulled the US Marshalls deal from but like I said I don't know how accurate it it.  A lot of the links were not operational to include their cornerworker handbook.

Suzy

For the CCS-Midwest contact:  Dave Fanning  email: dandlfanning@charter.net

For CCS-South, there is a web site with contact number, would assume they would assist anyone who wants to work down there.  link:     http://www.ccs-south.com/

Maybe CCS staff on here can possibly give us other contacts too from other regions?  :biggrin:

2005 Rookie Corner Worker of the Year!

Kuala76

Thanks Suzy :)  appreciate the info!  :cheers:
Kumi
MARRC Corner Worker of the Year 2008
MARRC Vice President 2012
MARRC President 2013

Eric Kelcher

We include contact or website info in the event info on our website.

The ones I cna think of off the top of head are MCRA, Mid-West Safety Crew, US Marshalls, MARRC, and Flagging by Faynisha.
Eric Kelcher
ASRA/CCS Director of Competition

In Your Corner

#7
Regarding the US Marshalls..

I'm the USM treasurer, Mike Braley, and want to assure you we are actively teaching and developing cornerworking techniques as we have for years.
Every race weekend we hold a class on Saturday mornings at 9.
For members of any of the other orgs out there, we are always open to information, suggestions or questions and welcome you to come to Loudon anytime and work with us. We're happy to share any info we have with your organization. We feel we are especially knowledgeable in fluid clean-up techniques, and would be happy to share anything we know on the subject with other organizations or individuals.

We also work with Egor Emery in some events down south (Daytona comes to mind) and many of us travel to other tracks to work. I've worked Barber, VIR, Daytona and Laguna in the last couple of years.
Laguna GP rocks, btw.

I like the universal point of contact idea, but what I've been thinking for some time is that we need a national association of cornerworking organizations to both improve and standardize what we do, as well as facilitating workers who want to work in another area. There's a lot of good work that could be done in this area. Raising our general level of professionalism as a group would be the greatest asset.

If anyone wants to discuss something like this, e-mail me at msbraley@comcast.net.


Oh, and the web site is under revisement right now, some things may not work but they will. The new site will be more interesting.
If you find a non-working link, please let us know.
Thanks

Kuala76

Hey there!  Thanks for posting up!  This is EXACTLY what I was hoping to pull out of the woodwork!  :thumb:
Unfortunately we are approaching the end of the racing season, but then it's a perfect time to discuss all the workings of corner working! 

I will definitely be in touch, I have family not too far from Loudoun.  I got a taste of "traveling to work" and now I'm addicted!  We can all learn from one another and it's great to find others like "us"  :biggrin:
Kumi
MARRC Corner Worker of the Year 2008
MARRC Vice President 2012
MARRC President 2013

Burt Munro

I just received this email from Egor Emery who coordinates Daytona events and looks like he is starting to work on Indy for Sept 2008.  Thought it might be helpful for anyone interested in these events.   :thumb:



GREETINGS FROM CENTRAL FLORIDA
Start planning your 2008 calendar now! The Daytona 200 week is always a big
deal, but the 2008 Daytona 200 is the best preparation you can get for the
inaugural Moto GP at Indianapolis which will be held on September 14, 2008.
Don't miss out on these great events!

Fall Cycle Scene at Daytona: October 18-21, 2007.

The event begins with Hammer School on Thursday. There is a full program on
Friday including the Team Challenge race(43 laps) starting at 1200 hrs.
There will be a 2 hr Moto ST practice starting at 1700 hrs. Again this year
Moto ST will have an endurance race starting at 12:30 Saturday afternoon
and finishing at 2100. Sunday has several more CCS races than last year and
concludes with the ASRA program. There will be an awards ceremony Sunday
evening starting at 1900 hrs.

Workers are needed! If you would like to be considered for working Fall
Cycle Scene please respond now. Have a friend(s) that you think might be
interested? Pass this email along to them or submit their name with yours
on the Data card below. We are looking forward to a great event, act now to
help make it so!

Egor Emery
phone:  352-357-7104  cell 352-360-3003
email:  73530.452@compuserve.com


Date                      Event                   Location

10/18-21                ROC                      Daytona
12/1-2                    CCS FL                  Homestead
2/28-3/8/08(probable)                        Daytona
9/11-14                  Moto GP                Indianapolis Motor Speedway


Data Card
------------------------------------------------------------------


_____________________________________________
Last Name             First              MI
_____________________________________________
Address

_____________________________________________
City                                                State        ZIP

_____________________________________________
email

____________________________Shirt size:
Phone        Home/work

Emergency contact:
Phone:

Days I can work:

Other workers I recommend: (name, address, ph)


---------------------------------------------------------------------

Founding member of the 10,000+ smite club.  Ask me how you can join!

on your corner

To add to what Mike Braley said above...  I have always thought that not every cornerworker has the skills and/or temperament as well as the physical capability to do every job there is in cornerworking.   In order to get proper recognition for the art and science of cornerworking and the respect that it deserves in motorcycle road racing, I think that national standards have to be developed to bring the craft to a certifiable level.  Then, the folks that hire a corner crew can know what it is they will get.  Car workers often just don't get it and cause the racing to be interrupted needlessly.  Promoters who hire the crews are too often taking the local car road racing crew because they are available and cheap.  As I said in a post here a while back, if some smart litigator learns that there are more comprehensive capabilities available out there, specifically for motorcycles, and responsible parties don't take advantage of them, they might be accused of negligence.

The problem for motorcycle safety work is that all the groups around the country, and the world for that matter, are not united on exactly what it is we do and/or should do in our craft.
I sat in on meeting a number of years ago at Daytona where reps from WERA, MARRC, US Marshalls, one of the Mid West crews that I can't recall, and some others that I don't recall were present...  We basically left the meeting with no consensus on the issues discussed.  The time is well past the point where the various groups should get on the same page.

My first proposal is for a nationwide consensus for defining what it is we do, how it is different than cornerworking cars.  After that, I think we need a rating system for workers.  Not everyone is capable of doing pick-up on a live track in racing traffic, not  everyone has that attention span to be the best flagger, few have the temperament and sensibilties to do race control.  Like EMT work, we need to have certifiable levels and positions.  Only then will we get the respect due the work we do without question from those in race management who hire and work with us.

I know that all of us have work and families in addition to the time we spend on the racetrack.  This is certainly why what I speak of hasn't already happened.  At some point, hopefully before the next road racing season, the US Marshalls web site will be up to date and our manual for what it is the USM does will be online.  I'd love to see other groups do likewise who haven't already done so.  Possibly then we can hash out a national strategy.

I think this forum could be a place for us all to get together on this.  Please respond with websites for all to check out...

Ed McFarland
22 year, US Marshalls
www.usmarshalls.org

Kuala76

Here's our site:

www.marrc.org

On the site is the cornerworker handbook as well which basically outlines our proceedures.  Unfortunately I believe that in addition to basic training, the making of a great corner worker will entail time and experience.  I also agree with the rating system and the fact that it would assist with folks "knowing what they are getting" and it would make it a lot easier for organizations to accept "outside" workers with confidence. 

I am not even going to start on the issues  :preachon: with car folks!   :ahhh: :ahhh:
Kumi
MARRC Corner Worker of the Year 2008
MARRC Vice President 2012
MARRC President 2013

spyderchick

This is a great discussion. Is there someone who would be willing to step up and form a National sanctioning body for Cornerworkers?

Standards that could be implemented on a national level would allow for race and track day orgs to have the best trained crews out there on a consistent basis. Also, the dialogue would allow everyone to learn of potential issues and hopefully come up with the best strategies to solve problems.

Definitely keep up the effort. We all appreciate what you do!

Alexa Krueger
Spyder Leatherworks
414.327.0967
www.spyderleatherworks.com
www.redflagfund.org
Do or do not, there is no "try".

TheHiriser

Quote from: on your corner on September 20, 2007, 01:10:27 PM
I have always thought that not every cornerworker has the skills and/or temperament as well as the physical capability to do every job there is in cornerworking.  

After that, I think we need a rating system for workers.  Not everyone is capable of doing pick-up on a live track in racing traffic, not  everyone has that attention span to be the best flagger, few have the temperament and sensibilties to do race control. 

Some quick observations from my experience, which is no where near Ed's.  We don't have a rating system per say in MARRC.  However the person in charge of signing people up for corners each day does and will push someone in the general direction/position they are qualified for.  Our training does provide for every aspect of cornerworking but like Ed said not everyone is cut out for running onto a hot track with bikes coming straight at you.  We are lucky to have a very experienced core group of people we can spread out in the trouble spots.  We are also very lucky to have an ASD (Associate Safety Director) position which is basically a "super" cornerworker.  These guys and girls respond to every incident, make on the spot decisions on every aspect and coach where needed.  They don't take over a corner they visit but will if necessary.  Quite often you will find them in hot spots or working side by side with new recruits going over every aspect of that particular turn.

In regards to a national standard I don't see how this should be a problem at all.  Every racing sanctioning body is different with regards to rules and flags but if all cornerworkers were trained on all flags there shouldn't be a problem going from one body to another.  After all most if not all cornerworker organizations developed their standards most likely based on the racing orgs rules that come to their playground.  MARRC has one flag difference to deal with between CCS and WERA and that is only for solid versus liquid debris.

On the other hand, maybe also pushing towards the sanctioning bodies to also come together and develop a national standard set of flags and there purposes may be feasible.  On paper none of this seems like it should be all that difficult to accomplish but I'm old enough to know better on that one.

I'd love to see the USM handbook and how it differs from MARRC if at all.  I'll be looking forward to the updated site.


In Your Corner

Having the cornerworking organizations on one page would certainly make it easier to influence the racing organizations to standardize. I would think this would also be easier on racers who race more than one series as well.

Super Dave

Hey, I'll sticky this until it shakes out.

Great thread!
Super Dave

Suzy

Quote from: TheHiriser on September 20, 2007, 08:33:19 PM
On the other hand, maybe also pushing towards the sanctioning bodies to also come together and develop a national standard set of flags and there purposes may be feasible.  On paper none of this seems like it should be all that difficult to accomplish but I'm old enough to know better on that one.

I agree with you here 110%. There should be one standard training and flags for ALL Cornerworkers. Maybe some riders here on the forum who race more than one orginization can answer this question 'cause I'm curious.....

Does it get confusing? Do you forget which flag is which when racing, or in other words, do you forget who uses what flag?  :err:
2005 Rookie Corner Worker of the Year!

TheHiriser

Racers shouldn't get confused, after all they read the rule book for each org they race with front to back, right?   :biggrin:

Between CCS and WERA the only flag I'm aware of that is different is the Pickle flag for liquid debris/oil, which WERA uses.

The AMA uses one more flag than those two orgs which is the blue flag.  As far as what the cornerworkers use here is what they have from their rulebook.

b. Warning Flags / Lights
1. Yellow Flag with Red Stripes: Indicates debris, fluid or a potentially
hazardous situation on or near the track. Passing is allowed.
Exercise caution.
2. Lime Green with Black Stripes: Indicates the possibility of oil on
the track. Passing is allowed. Exercise caution.
3. Yellow Flag / Light
a. Stationary Yellow Flag: Indicates a potentially hazardous
situation on or near the track. Passing is allowed. Exercise
caution.
b. Waving Yellow Flag/Yellow Light: Indicates serious hazards
on or near the track. Proceed with caution. Passing is not
allowed from the flag stations displaying the waving yellow flag
until the rider is beyond the incident. Violations will be
determined from corner worker reports or other evidence
deemed appropriate by the Race Manager.
4. White Flag with Red Cross: Indicates that ambulances, safety
vehicles or emergency personnel are on the course. Exercise
caution.
c. Courtesy Flags
1. White Flag: Indicates the final lap of a race.
2. White and Green Flags Crossed: Indicates 1/2 total race distance.
3. Blue Flag: Indicates you are about to be overtaken by faster
riders. Hold your line and do not impede their progress. Riders
disregarding this flag may be black-flagged at the discretion of
Race Manager.


They also use the black flag but it would seem being displayed with a number board would mean it is only at Start/Finish.

6. Black Flag: Indicates a problem with your motorcycle or a
disqualification. Number board displayed with the flag indicates the
rider being signaled. Carefully reduce speed and stop at the first
suitable location off the course.


I would think since most (not all) riders at some point aspire to be in the AMA or dream about it why not push for their flags to be the standard.  If all the racing orgs were on the same page we would be forced to abide by their standards for flags, not the other way around.  They after all don't have to let us play with them.  This is just one aspect of the entire picture and the whole flag deal to me is a baby step but a step in the right direction and definitely a start.  The only flaw to this plan I see is if someone thinks there should be additional flags added in the rotation from what the AMA uses.

Now all CW orgs being trained on other aspects of race safety is a totally different animal and should be left entirely up to CW orgs.  I agree with what everyone else has already stated.  Our training above and beyond flags and general procedures is something that could be developed more thoroughly and standardized.  Maybe I'm naive but if a congress of CW orgs met once already to no avail what would make anyone think another meeting of the minds would work?  Was the purpose of that meeting specifically for what we are discussing now?  Or was this brought up in conjunction to the original purpose of the meeting?  I think if two or more of the bigger CW orgs banded together first and developed a comprehensive training package, others would most certainly follow if it became known as the standard.  I know of a couple smaller private groups that use MARRC's training as a prerequisite-requisite for working in their group.  They must complete our training and work with us a weekend before they are allowed to work for them on track.  Not tooting MARRC's horn but this further emphasizes if a "standard" was developed, others would follow. 

Maybe I'm not seeing the entire picture here but my only qualm about a "rating system" is if you rate someone a number and then fall short with worker turnout, how do you justify asking them to work in a position you previously stated they were not qualified for?  I understand this would help on a national level when going to tracks you aren't familiar with where CW orgs aren't familiar with you. I for one wouldn't want to have the highest rating and then be asked to work a track the first time in the highest rated zone because they were short the highest rating and yes I know I can always say no, I just don't like being put in those sort of situations where I'd feel like I'm letting someone down.  I like to be familiar with the track before I put myself into those sort of situations.  Doing a hot lap in a car or being handed a track map to me doesn't justify knowing the track.  It takes time to learn the different lines, speeds and other workings of each and every turn and even then things are never predictable.   I'm not suggesting different ratings for different tracks.  I just don't see how it would work flawlessly at this point.  I could be missing something and I'm not knocking it completely I do think it could be a good idea. Someone might have the answers and explanations to all my concerns that would make me change my mind.  I can see how it would be beneficial in knowing what you are getting when someone shows up out of the blue who doesn't have the same issues I'd have working an unknown track.

And for the record I am one of the ones that will step out onto a hot track with bikes coming at me.  Some say I'm insane and some say I've been lucky.  Every time I do it however I think of a million things in a split second.  A lot of my decision making process is based upon which group of riders is on track at that particular time.  With experts I tend to be more trusting.  Amateurs on track and I'm way more cautious.  Bike size and speeds also plays a big factor, which turn I'm in, all sorts of things.  A new track with riders I don't know?  I'd be less inclined to jump out there on good faith. 

Another .02 (I'll go broke keeping this up)

on your corner

All thoughtful points.  Good discussion. 

I always like defer to what the Pros are doing.  Up until the last 10 or 15 years the AMA had a pretty simple flag system.  Then some folks sorta decided on some changes without a real consensus from riders on what it is that is necessary and what is unnecessary as far as flags.  I don't agree with some flagging procedures of my own organization.  I think all groups and sanctioning bodies need to study what information the riders need and can process at speed on the racetrack.  I think, without a study like this having been done, that the FIM flagging system is good with the exception that there is no stationary yellow in FIM.  A stationary yellow, I feel, has its place when used judiciously.  Now as far as what would be judicious, that is what I seek to nail down for all the groups and sanctioning bodies.  I find that certain people can consistently be judicious and others can not. 

This is where a rating system comes in.  After ample opportunity to learn, someone on com. who cannot remain calm enough to report as an incident happens shouldn't be doing com.  Someone who is reluctant to go on to a hot track when it is reasonable to do so shouldn't be doing pickup.  Someone who is asleep at the flag staition when you need a waving yellow shouldn't be flagging.  For the same reasons that Paramedics can do more than EMTs, we need to have a system that can certify us for the jobs we do.  Without it we are treated as just warm bodies that may or may not be an asset to the racing.

If we are able to describe concisely what are the best practices and potential cornerworkers are able to learn these practices from reading the documents and live training, then we will be able to gain respect and status from consistently contributing to making the racing safer. 

My impression of the meeting years back was that it was just to see if the groups had any common ground for possibly standardizing what we do.  Everybody's got their opinion.  Without some study and some science it is only opinion.  The US Marshalls have found some practices and techniques over the last 35 years that seem to work well and we are in the process of documenting them in writing.  I'd love to see what every group does so that we can find common practices and techniques that the racing organizers and riders can agree might be the best practices and techniques.

Ed

Eric Kelcher

Well there are two flags I do not see a need for.

Blue flag means rider to hold your line, that is a rule and if it is not displayed the rider can be erratic ??? The response from most riders is exact opposite and even the encouraged response at AMA races.
This is not car races where the track width is sometimes an issue to making safe passes and is then a move over flag.


Green and Black flag, we will not race with oil on race surface

so those two flags wil not be utilized by CCS/ASRA with their current meanings.
Eric Kelcher
ASRA/CCS Director of Competition

RoadRaceJunkie

Agree that these flags are unnecessary.  Blue flagging just isn't practical with current operational procedures anywhere and many of those who need to heed the flag don't know how.  Never understood why an additional flag was necessary to indicate possible non-optimum traction.   The four basic flags were enough for me when I raced.  There's only so much information a racer needs and/or can process.  Need a University study or similar to learn what it is exactly that racers have to have and how best it be presented to them. 
I have always thought that flashing yellow and red lights, properly placed in each particular turn for best visibility and lighted picture signs- for the slippery flag and Ambulance flag would free a person from having to flag 100% of time and put 'em where they are needed more- in the corner picking up.  Addtionally there would be no false red flags if the red lights were solely controlled by Race Control.
Duh... some of these ideas seem like no-brainers that should have been adopted a long time ago.

Ed
RoadRaceJunkie
Changed screen name from "On Your Corner"

Woofentino Pugrossi

Ed thing about the light system is reliability. Also where to install the poles.

Sad thing is theres way too many racers who DONT either understand the current flags, nor actully follow them (ie someone getting a debris flag waveoff and just keeps going). We still have people passing under waving yellows AND reds. Honestly the flags for CCS are simple. I dont understand why some people just cant comprehend them.

Actually I miss the blue flag. Came in handy when I was out there on teh track and the leaders were coming up. I knew that I was gonna get lapped within 10-15 seconds.
Rob
CCS MW#14 EX, ASRA #141
CCSForums Cornerworking and Classifieds Mod

RoadRaceJunkie

#22
I compare what we do in club races and national races and then look at what the FIM does... Looks to me like every racer from every region has some differing ideas as to what the flags mean.  Rarely have I seen blue flags actually achieve the purpose- for a number of different reasons.  I would think the FIM would be the last word in what it is the racers need and want. But when I see a GP without a flag station in the proper place(s) I wonder who has a clue. 
My idea for lights is solely based on what would be ideal for the racers in each corner.  A system for hanging the lights at each track would have to be devised for each corner.  Pay enough humans to do flagging long enough and you've put in a light system.  I propose that local flags (lights) would be controlled by the workers on the corner or Race Control- as necessary.  The red from Race Control only.  A light pattern/system certainly could be configured so no racer could say "I didn't see the flag".

Ed


limy_1

I have been talking over on the advanced training thread and it was requested that I post over here  :spank: :spank: :spank:

Anyway I have been going on  :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: for the entire second page of that thread.

http://www.ccsforum.com/index.php/topic,18408.msg159473.html#new

There is good information about racing and working in Canada.
Flags are a little different but they are organized.
Roger Preston
AHRMA Volunteer & Monkee
WERA Official

Dr. Evil

I cornerwork at Summit Point when I can, but I live close to VIR.  I really haven't found "the path" to cornerworking at VIR or anyother track for that matter.  The only way I got hooked up at Summit Point was because of the MARRC website.

limy_1

I see a bunch of you posting on the WERA site today.

Anytime you want to work with WERA let Sean know.
Anytime you want to work with AHRMA let Cindy know.
I am sure the same holds true with CCS.

Look me up if you find your way to an AHRMA race or
a WERA North Central race.
Roger Preston
AHRMA Volunteer & Monkee
WERA Official

bambam

 great thread and lots of good information.  it seems as though maarc and usm are both in favor of making a standard system so why not start with you 2 and then go from there. of course it would be awesome if you could first get ccs and wera to have similar flags and / or get both of them to adopt the ama or fim standard. since there are really only 4 main groups ( fim ( moto gp and wsb) ama, ccs, and wera) and their affiliates that hold races in the US.  i would think that having a standard flag set nationwide would take miles out of the journey to a national corner working association.

just my $.02 worth  to go with a thank you for doing what you do so we can do what we do a little safer.

limy_1

WERA adopted the pickle flag last year but I don't see them using the blue flag anytime soon.
Remember that WERA is now AMA sanctioned for their National events.

AHRMA I don't think will ever adopt either of these flags and they are also AMA sanctioned.
Roger Preston
AHRMA Volunteer & Monkee
WERA Official

truckstop

Quote from: RoadRaceJunkie on October 23, 2007, 03:19:19 PM
My idea for lights is solely based on what would be ideal for the racers in each corner.  A system for hanging the lights at each track would have to be devised for each corner.  Pay enough humans to do flagging long enough and you've put in a light system.  I propose that local flags (lights) would be controlled by the workers on the corner or Race Control- as necessary.  The red from Race Control only.  A light pattern/system certainly could be configured so no racer could say "I didn't see the flag".

Hi y'all. Just tried out corner working for the first time this past weekend and so I've been poking around a bit since I hope to do it more often next season. Since I typically only race one race, and spend most of the weekend spectating, seems like actually doing something is a better idea. I know this is an old topic, but wanted to throw in my noob $.02.

For a little background, I'm a rider coach with STT, and CR for the BHF trackdays, mostly working with new riders and novices, and race ULWSB on a tiny old slow turd bike. I've been able to ride at quite a few different tracks in the Midwest and have been surprised in the difference in cornerworkers at different venues. Some of them over the past couple years have been trained better to handle motorcycles, and some still treat us like cars. I like the idea of standardized training, and coming up with a training platform to readjust car workers to dealing with bikes.

As a rider, I want the least number of flags possible. Four is enough.

The blue flag would be nice, but really? Its a distraction and can make things more dangerous. If a new rider tenses up thinking someone is coming, they're more likely to be unpredictable trying to get out of the way, instead of minding their own business so that the faster rider can pass. I've been lapped plenty by the fast guys, and they always manage to get it done before I even knew they were there.

As for its use along with the pickle flag in higher levels of racing, the riders have been at it longer, can process more information, and are supposedly more skilled - which is where I don't know if you can have a standardized set for all levels of racing.

Finally, as for the lights, wouldn't that be a cost incurred by the track? There are tracks out there that need to spend their money on *far* more important things than a light system. I also don't really think that lights would be any more visible than a waving flag. If a track can use lights, and can afford lights to augment flaggers, then cool - but as a rider, I'd rather see surface issues dealt with, or more air fence added, etc. and even if you add lights, you're still paying cornerworkers to work com, watch traffic, and run to pick up bikes, so there's not much of a cost savings there.

HAWK

Overhead lights would be missed more often. Our cornerworkers here in the midwest (I can't speak for other regions as I don't have that experience) are very good at flagging and are positioned in the corner stations to be in the line of sight as we enter the corner.
Paul Onley
CCS Midwest EX #413

limy_1

Since we are back at this again.

I worked the last WERA night endurance race (3:30 pm - 11:30 pm)
The track had lights for vision on the front straight only.
All of the bikes were required to have headlights and a solid tail light on by 7:30 pm.

Cornerworkers started the race with flags and ended the race with lights.
In reality it was quite easy. 

Each station had 1 car battery and two yellow lights (picture school bus).
The lights were switched on, flash & wig wag.
No lights - green track
If one light was steady - standing yellow.
If one light was flashing - waving yellow
If two lights were alternating (wigwag) - red flag.

Down, dirty & cheap but only works well at night.  :err:
Roger Preston
AHRMA Volunteer & Monkee
WERA Official

RoadRaceJunkie

My vision for using lights would come strictly from research into what would be best noticed by racing riders.  I'm not talking about simply adding lights similar to what is currently used by car racing that might be less visible than flags.  I'm thinking there are much better ways to get the rider's attention than what is done currently.   And, of course, any system would probably be track infrastructure.   
With new procedures looming on the horizon for DMG/AMA racing, along with new risk management ideas seemingly being moved to implementation, it is time to make the whole effort more scientifically objective.  The days of "sounds like a good idea, we'll try that" need to be replaced by empirical development.

Ed

SLP007

Hi, Anyone looking to Corner work at Palm Beach International Raceway formerly Moroso Motorsports Park and Homestead please Contact Steve Pope cell (772)807-0925 email at popestephenl@bellsouth.net

Expat2b

#33
Quote from: RoadRaceJunkie on October 07, 2008, 04:48:21 PM
With new procedures looming on the horizon for DMG/AMA racing, along with new risk management ideas seemingly being moved to implementation, it is time to make the whole effort more scientifically objective.  The days of "sounds like a good idea, we'll try that" need to be replaced by empirical development.

All - You have detailed a complex set of management problems that needs a viable business model and could benefit greatly from technology support. I couldn't help but notice the parallels in this discussion to my present line of work in Healthcare Management so perhaps there is an opportunity to model another industry in some aspects and not re-invent the wheel.

Scheduling corner workers is not unlike staffing a hospital with skilled healthcare workers, especially areas like the operating room or emergency room where specialized resource competency is essential to safety. Standards in practice (physical assessment, medication administration, documentation, sterile technique) across different care domains (ortho, cardiac, neuro, oncology, OR, nursery) form the basis for good judgment which helps to improve safety and reduce errors. These and other areas of healthcare have seen widespread use of technology to manage the complexities of scheduling and decision support with great benefits to safety and operational management.

I agree with this discussion that standards in flagging would benefit safety in the racing domain however getting buy-in from all the relevant sanctioning bodies to a single standard will be an evolutionary process if it is feasible at all.  The cost/benefit of implementing change is always subject to debate when perceived risk and profit are involved. The opinions of this board could be voiced through advocacy and lobbying to influence changes in this regard.

Expanding corner worker education programs and offering advanced training at the local level are great ideas of course because they can be done now and increase the general competency within the pool of trained corner workers. I would imagine standards of corner worker practice would be easier to align across groups, and if agreement could be reached on standard roles and competencies, then a universal certification (basic/advanced/ASD/Control) would be possible which would enable more flexible scheduling of resources across geographic regions.

Event planning and Scheduling is a more complex multi-variable problem. With regard to worker placement, you have considerations such as worker competencies, preferences, availability, motivation, event requirements, logistics, budget, event popularity and interpersonal politics. Technology could help with most of this. Training and certification could mitigate the subjective questions of competency in scheduling. Successful recruitment and retention of trained corner workers needs a balance of monetary and non-monetary incentives and policies that don't necessarily have to be standardized but for each event should be fairly applied to everyone.  Just having a central registry would be a good place to start.

Now that we're into the winter months this is a good time to work on this. I am very interested and willing to work on a project to help facilitate the development of a management framework for a "Corner Marshall Safety Alliance" and help to evaluate and/or develop IT tools to help move us forward on this topic. 

If you would like me to assist please send me a PM with what you see to be the next steps.




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