Wave starts

[fatboy122]

I single class race with multiple wave starts is BS.  How is it considered fair when the guy you are supposed to beat gets a green flag 10 seconds before you. 

It is B.S. I started from the 3rd wave, yeah thats right, at VIR this year and ended with a bunch of top 4's. If i was rich and could afford to preenter 3 months ahead of time, but for now I'll start in the back and live with it just like i did at roebling and Barber. Its fun comin through traffic but sometimes i would like to take an easier approach!

[r1owner]

Technically, they could use transponder times to determine the winner.  They should have total time.  Although starting from the back you'd still have issues such as passing people slowing you down that the pole sitter would not have (assuming he's fast enough to stay in front).

[CCS243]

Darned if you do, darned if you don't 

As race director in the MA & SE regions, I have been setting grids based on track density,  Typically, if if there are about 1/2 the density entered in a given event, I have used a space break in lieu of a 2 wave start, without regard as to whether it is a combined or single class event.  The goal is to provide competition and challenges for everyone.  Any ideal start will have a steady stream of riders entering the first turn at most tracks.  We are less successful on 2 wave starts.

At Barber, a space break was employed for the USGRPU and one of the middleweight AM events, even though the entries were above the mid point of density.  At tracks like Carolina Motorsports, there isn't enough front straight to do that.

Some of the longer term competitors can recall the "good old days" of 80 bike 2 wave fields at Daytona, I know I didn't enjoy starting in 79th in one event, but had a great time not finishing last !  The same folks can tell you a Le Mans start (no electric starters guys) is down right scary.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

I think this once again leads to the never ending debate about HOW people should get their experience for racing. The Amateur class is for learning racing, the Expert class is for those who already walked that path. The variable which has greatly disrupted that balance in the last 8 years or so has been people gaining race track experience in non-racing situations then going into racing already having some degree of speed, but not racing experience to go along with it. That is the very reason I encourage people who want to get into racing (who already have motorcycle experience on the street) to only do a few non-racing activities (at the most) at race tracks before they actually go racing (as an introduction to the track and the general race track environment). The reason for this is the very situation that I run into on a constant basis, some fast Amateurs who learned how to go fast in non-racing environments, but sadly have very questionable passing ability. The reason I prefer a person to get into racing with minimal non-racing race track experience is so they can develop their passing abilities as they develop their speed. Having one ability developed without the other is dangerous in my opinion, it certainly doesn't promote safer racing, if anything it can lead to more dangerous situations because those people are now going alot faster (while lacking an important ability) than they would have if they had developed their abilities simultaneously in an actual racing environment.

At Road America I was at the back of the Experts running times that were about 110% that of the fastest laps turned in those very classes. In the AMA that cut-off percentage would qualify you for the Superbike class (and this is after the AMA has progressively lowered it's percentages from 120% not that long ago). What I'm getting at is there are alot of Amateurs now days who are able to not only get within 110% of the fastest Experts times in a particular class, some are only 2% or 3% off the pace of the fastest Expert on the track at that time. At what point is it time for someone to make the step up to Expert (mid-season if need be)? Those fastest Amateurs should be Experts starting in front of me, not behind me in the Amateur field, then the number of true Amateurs the Experts would have to deal with coming from behind would be minimalized or even possibly eliminated. And if those people who are running that fast are not up to par as far as their 'racecraft' goes then that's further proof as to what I previously said.

I don't have a vendetta against Amateur racers or non-racing racetrack activities, I just find it frustrating that more people can't seem to make some of these connections as to the 'causes and effects' of different things involved in this sport. I've watched 2 major things happen with the Amateur classes since I started racing in '96, one is the obvious speed increases as non-racing activities on racetracks have become more and more popular since they started becoming popular around 2000, the other is the combining of almost all classes now so the Experts and Amateurs are on the track at the same time (believe it or not Amateurs and Experts use to run their classes seperately). If the Experts and Amateurs were running seperate races again I wouldn't really care how fast they were going, but when it's an issue I have to deal with at every event it concerns me when I have very questionable passes being attempted on me by racers who are not even racing against me. It's sad to me that some Amateurs are that fast, yet don't understand how to pass safely in an actual race environment. If the Amateur class was actually filled with racers who weren't running Expert lap times this very topic about wave starts wouldn't even be an issue.

That's my OPINION, bash away! 

*EDIT* I was wrong, the AMA Superbike qualifying cut-off is 108%

[Sig]

The issue at barber wasn't that I was running expert lap times, it was that a good deal of experts weren't running expert times.

I think that a 39 at barber isn't an expert lap time. *shrug*

[Johnny B]

I am both an LRRS and a USCRA official up at Loudon. For the most part, a single class has not been divided into waves. Our rulebook calls for heat races to set the grid in case a class is split. Another solution was to just run two races with two sets of trophies. Since our riders are divided into Expert, Amateur and Novice, we are less likely to have an oversubsribed class. Except for Motard, Novices are separate from the Experts and Amateurs. Experts and Amateurs are always separate waves.
We use gaps in the grid for USCRA. I am the Hot Grid Marshall and I have the power to deviate from the printed grid sheet as I see fit when lining the bikes up. The problem is, when you send two classes off in a single wave, the slow guys in the first group are going to be messing up the fast guys in the second group. Swap their places on the grid, (First group behind second group.) and you'll still have the same problem. It will never be eliminated altogether, but careful thought must go into the makeup of the grid.
Loudon is a tight track, and when the first Suzuki money races were held in 1986, the 1100's were gridded in front of the 750's. It was discovered that the 750's got around the track much quicker, so after a few weekends, the 750's were switched to the first wave.
My observations at Loudon are that as soon as Control says that Turn 1 is OK, the next wave almost immediately gets the green flag.

[red900]

GSXR Mike, who is going to teach the amateurs proper riding technique on the track?   Are you going to take the time out of your day and go over to the amateurs you notice on track and talk to them about particular issues you may see?  A perfect example happened this past weekend when an myself and another amateur were racing for first place and we came out of a corner and split an expert.  He took the outside line and I took the inside line.  As we approached the next turn we were almost side by side with my front tire about even with his gas tank...  He had the inside line so I assumed he was going to maintain that line and continue through the corner, only to find out that he was going to cut across the track at a 45degree angle and hit his turn in marker before bending it in...  Hmm, where does that put me?    On the ground as he folded my front rim in half like a taco when he clipped me.  This is the type of thing that happens when someone is not taught to maintain your line when entering a corner.  I teach this at every event to beginners while I CR at Nesba who is going to step up in the race environment and do this while learning by your methodology?

[Super Dave]

...we were almost side by side with my front tire about even with his gas tank... 

And this is unexpected in amateur racing? 

Racing is different than a track day, and one needs to expect very unexpected stuff during a race.  Passing rules are pretty much based on who ever is in front is in front.

Things are taught, but the trick is that new amateurs have to actually learn.  That is the trick.

[red900]

Give me a freaking break Dave.  That is a load of Sh**.....  Tell me that every race you are in you don't put yourself in positions that could, if the other rider did not continue to do what they were doing, put you on the ground.  Don't try to pawn this off as some amateur racing and that experts don't take the exact same risks.   

Of course we all have to prepare for the unexpected, but seriously how much can you prepare for?  Prepare for everything and you will not even step foot on the track.  In my opinion, which everyone seems to disagree with because I have cheated my way through this season and I am one of those asshole CR's with nesba, is that a new person to the track cannot be expected learn everything on their own in a race environment, and  needs feedback as to track etiquette at a minimum. 

I will tell you what dave, you would not have done the hair brain move this guy did...  Why, because you understand what implications it could have on both riders not just because  "you are in front therefore you have the right to weave all over the track".... 

[Burt Munro]

In my opinion, which everyone seems to disagree with because I am one of those asshole CR's with nesba .....

10 points for Dustin for a correct statement

[red900]

10 points for Dustin for a correct statement

Oh great, now the peanut gallery has joined...  Pipe down over there.. 

:)

[Burt Munro]

 

I didn't even feel that smite!