Over Running Flags - Penalty??

[HAWK]

I was only listing specific issues to try and nail down over-riding. I fully agree that passing under a waving yellow or red is unacceptable and furthermore very black and white. However, over-riding is a rather broad brush stroke that could encompass some of the examples I mentioned. My concern here is whether there is a clear line or will something be acceptable at one venue and not at another. My interpretation is that as long as I don't pass or crash into the incident I am within the rules for a waving yellow and as long as I am off race pace (not dragging a knee, hanging off etc) and don't pass I am within the rules for a red flag.

Usually the race organizers and or trackday groups will take a rather firm stand against these incidents, the checkered flag victory lap is usually dealt with by public humiliation tactics unless it becomes a regular occurance. The red or yellow flag incidents are frequently enforced by the track for insurance reasons at track days, but the racing penelties are as Jeff pointed out spelled out in the rule book. The debris wave off is one that I have never seen a specific penalty for. The key here is whether the organizer knew about the situation, were they notified? I have to wonder if some of the incidents were not followed through because someone somewhere in the chain wasn't sure if it was right or wrong. I agree that there should be punishment for safety infractions but we should all be on the same page, both as to what constitutes an infraction as well as what is done about it. Your post is a start in the right direction by trying to get the penalties clarified so that everyone knows what will happen if they break the rules, I just want to know exactly what is considered breaking the rules. If the gray areas are eliminated in everyones minds then this will become much less of an issue.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Well we've had riders at BHF acknowledge the debris wave off to them and STILL continue around. Seems to be worse and worse every season. Line vioations at BHF seem to be down a bit, but dammit if you get the debris flag wave off pointed at you, PULL THE FUCK OFF!! Theres a reason its being pointed at you. May be something simple as leathers unzipped, something hanging or loose or you may be leaking oil bad. If we get you off asafp, not only will we keep the possibility of oiling the track down, may save your ass if we get you before your rear oils up and may even save the motor. I know theres a couple corners where its hard to tell, but dont nod your head and keep going around with your hand up. There should be a penalty for not obeying a debris flag off. But then again much like any penalties handed out in the MW, there is no consistancy. But one of these days someone is gonna be waved off around 3 and keep going around all while leaking oil everywhere. Then its gonna be a min of 2-3hr clean up. Remember that one a few years ago in 3a where we had to shut the races down for the day to try to scrub that synthetic oil off the surface with simple green and 100's of gallons of water.

As for red flag situations. You are supposed to slow down, put your hand up and no passing period. Isnt the time for doing wheelies (which are no-nos anyways). Just roll around in 2nd or 3rd to the hot pit.

And on to wheelies (not talking power ones out of corners during the race either, but the pulled ones after the race or during red flags). Every riders meeting I've been to with CCS MW, Bill keeps saying "No wheelies, stoppies or burnouts", but yet we still have a few select "special people" who just cant seem to comprehend what 'no' means. $50 fine means nothing to some of these people. Maybe if they were told they are done for the weekend may get it through their heads. Seen a couple rather dangerous ones already this year on the cool down. One of these days someones gonna go down doing one.

[TheHiriser]

There are times when a racer does not see flags for several corners, so nailing them with a penalty after blowing one flag is probably not appropriate. 

If they don't see a debris point for several corners they shouldn't be racing, period, end of discussion.  Part of racing is being aware of the track condition and that is communicated by the flaggers.  There is no excuse for blowing several in my opinion.  You don't see them?  Bull.

You also have to realize the excuse of not seeing them is even more bogus considering most of us either race ourselves, are former racers or aspiring racers.  We either know from racing where the riders are more apt to see the flags or we are told by racing cornerworkers. 

Irregardless this whole thread started out differently and IMHO for track day orgs it should be an ass chewing first, second time you get another ass chewing and miss the next session, third time and you are gone.

Like Kumi said we do a lot of stuff relying on people to adhere to the flags.  During the WERA endurance this year I jumped over the tire wall in T7 on riders right standing about 1-1/2-2 feet from the track while riders were coming straight at me going atleast 80-100mph depending on the rider.  I pushed a bike backwards, up an embankment and away from the track surface.  Knowing most WERA riders slow up and generally go single file with no passing gave me the confidence to do that.  Am I a touch crazy?  Most would say yes but I had that confidence in the riders.  Earlier in that day had an incident occurred where a rider buzzed me or a fellow worker I wouldn't have done that and called for a red flag potentially changing the outcome of the race.  Which would you guys prefer?

[TheHiriser]

You want specifics here you go.  At Pocono this past weekend a "CONTROL RIDER" buzzed past a cornerworker and Pocono fire during a full course red flag at race speed.  Keep in mind they were in the middle of the track and the rider came mere feet from them.

What should have been done to that rider in your opinion?

[Simon]

There is absolutetly no excuse for over riding a red flag. It just puts corner workers and other riders in danger. Last year me and two others nearly got our clocks cleaned in turn 5 at Summit when we were picking up a bike and  attending to an injured rider who was down on the track. It was a good 15-20 seconds after the red flag was thrown...the rider got a $50 fine and a major chewing from the race director. Rightly so!

[Kuala76]

Who gets the $50??  I think at Summit it should go to the MARRC Injured Riders Fund, other wise to the Air Fence Fund 

The more I thought about the reactions I had to this post, the more I realized that I don't think racers/riders actually think through the things that are going on in the corners while waving yellow or red.  Every thing we do out there is done to assist the riders/racers in the most efficient manner, and to keep races flowing as quickly & easily as possible.  I would hate for it to come to us waiting around until all riders are in the pits before tending to something/someone on the track :(

[TheHiriser]

I would hate for it to come to us waiting around until all riders are in the pits before tending to something/someone on the track :( 

Sad to say but I think that is where things are headed.  I'm not putting my ass on the line anymore if things like this continue to happen.  Someone else said they pay good money to race and win, well I don't pay anything and don't get paid either.  What incentive do I have to run out during a race and pick up a bike off a hot track?  None, I don't get points, contingency money or anything. I do it because I want to see good racing, I do it because I don't want to see anyone get hurt.  I do it because I love the sport.  I don't do it to get run over.

I'll get off the soap box now and stop preaching  , I'm done with this subject.

[Super Dave]

Any Track Day Directors or Control Riders out there who are willing to share their policies?

I've seen situations where riders that are drawing flack from either the riders or corner workers have to do a "sit out" in track day situations;  they can't participate in the next session.  That's a good "fine" for a track day rider as they are paying to ride all day. 

I can't remember if it was in an STT day or another independent group.  I've only been to a couple Nesbian days, so I know that didn't happen in them.

[Super Dave]

What incentive do I have to run out during a race and pick up a bike off a hot track?  None, I don't get points, contingency money or anything. I do it because I want to see good racing, I do it because I don't want to see anyone get hurt.  I do it because I love the sport.  I don't do it to get run over.

I'll get off the soap box now and stop preaching  , I'm done with this subject.

No, I feel for you.

I think there are lots of people in racing that recognize that corner workers love the sport.  It's important to me that you know that I appreciate what you do.  Again, it's a few bad apples that spoil it for us all.

[Kuala76]

Hey thanks Dave  Luckily the majority of riders/racers we run into feel the same way you do - if the majority were NOT, I think we'd have an even HARDER time getting people out there on the corners! 

[Suzy]

Couple years ago, don't remember the number, but he got the debris flag wave off at corner 3 at BHF, with smoke coming out he just continued to ride, every corner giving him the flag, and he just waved his hand at us, like he was saying to himself, yea, yea, I know attitude and rode all the way around to pit in. He was going slow enough not to drop fluids. But obviously, he didn't read the rulebook. 

I think it should be brought up at every rider's meeting, every time. Maybe all rider's should have a flag meeting before races too, like we do before working. Because you always will have new riders that may not have read the rule book. 

[TheHiriser]

Trouble is, and I'm not pointing anyone out, with having these things pointed out during the meetings is you have people that think they've heard it all and aren't paying attention.  The people that think this time is best used joking with their buddies.  Or someone who is so ramped out to get out there they are thinking of their break markers and turn in points instead of listening.  Unfortunately I think what needs to happen is the offenders need to be spanked hard.  Penalties and fines.  I bet then these sorts of incidents would stop happening.