Over Running Flags - Penalty??

[Kuala76]

Hello all! Worked a couple of track days at Pocono this past weekend.  There were many instances of riders "over riding" both the waving yellows and reds & riders MID PACK running the checker to get in that one last lap  .  So what do you..(both riders and corner marshals) think is an appropriate penalty for over riding flags?  Over riding red? waving yellow? Blowing a debris point and continuing to the pit?  Running the checker?  Should the penalty differ between track days and races?  What do you think??

[Jeff]

in racing there is a penalty.  Generally it's being docked a lap for passing under waving yellow.

For the debris flag I've never heard of a penalty.  If someone is stupid enough to ride through dirt/oil/crap on the track, they will probably pay the price...

On the red flag, if you act stupid and get caught, you'll most likely get a fine and a big ass chewing...

Track days are regulated by the organization running them, not the race org.

[HAWK]

What is the definition of over riding the waving yellow? The org I ride with allows full speed racing with no passing from flag to incident. Red flag, reduce speed and proceed safely to the pits, no passing from flag to track exit.

[Kuala76]

Hey there Jeff!  Yes, I know there are penalties for such behavior - I have actually RTFRB   for both CCS and WERA - being as those are the organizations that I generally have contact with.  I was just putting this up there as more of a discussion question to see what the positions of different folks would be (ie. how seriously this is taken on an individual basis - and what different folks would think an "appropriate" penalty would be).

~As for the debris, I didn't mean just a debris flag (I mirror your opinion as to if they are stupid enough to run through it they will probably pay their own penalty!! :))- I was speaking of the debris POINT.  

~For example, I think if a rider is dropping - is debris pointed and does not pull off immediately causing oil on the track - that rider should be out there with us cleaning up the mess he/she left  

I know that "penalty" will not be implemented in racing - but again, just opening the discussion to people's thoughts :)  

[Jeff]

Kumi,

There are times when a racer does not see flags for several corners, so nailing them with a penalty after blowing one flag is probably not appropriate.  Additionally, there are times when it's safer to simply blow past a rider under a waving yellow.

I've come up on lappers right as the waving yellow was pulled.  My closing speed was already a good 20mph faster, and they grabbed a handful of brakes, quickly increasing that closing speed to 40, 50 or more MPH.  By the time I see that flag, I can't shave off 40-60mph, so it's simply better to just go around them.

Most of the time the corner workers see and understand what happens and accept it.  I have had to explain myself twice to the race director.  Once he saw in my favor, once he did not...

Nobody makes it a habit to blow flags, it just sometimes happens.

[HAWK]

Last year in a wet race I passed a waving yellow in 6, caught two rider afraid of the water and running over 20 mph off my pace, waited till we passed rider off in 7, started to pass them and saw a waving yellow in 8, aborted a pass that I could easily have made before the flag station and in the process let the leaders get away. Will I ever balk on a pass that I know I can complete before a waving yellow? No. Is that wrong? No. Some riders will grab a handful of brakes when they see a waving yellow and that is their choice but the rule book says nothing about reducing speed, only that there is an incident on or near the track and no passing. If you want to win you don't slow down for the flag, only as required for the situation. Unless a rider crashes because he is going too fast for the incident on or near the track he is not going too fast for a waving yellow in my book.

Please don't take any of the above the wrong way, I very much appreciate the work you guys do for us and the safety it brings to the event. On the other hand I also paid a lot of money to try to win that event and will do EVERYTHING inside of the rules to get that win.

[Kuala76]

Again, Jeff, this wasn't a post to "flame the racers" nor was it a post to "hang and burn em" type thing and I am hoping that the tone of my original post was not such.  I KNOW that there are always exceptions to every issue and circumstances surrounding every incident.  And yes, most of the time corner workers see it and accept what happens, maybe giving the information to the sanctioning body to deal with.  You may personally have never blown a flag and put anyone in danger, but you can't say that it never happens.  As with any penalty in racing, I wasn't looking for a hard fast and steady answer for EVERY racer/rider who has EVER blown a flag, just for what the thoughts were on affective penalties.  Again, in my mind I was thinking of the BLATANT disregard for the flags, not the instances you spoke of.

~We as corner workers really do rely on the riders/racers adhering to the flag conditions. I am out there for the love of the sport and to help contribute to the safety of the sport as much as I can and have a blast doing it.  There were several times this past weekend where flag running was an issue and therefore, it was on my mind.  Just wanted others views on this issue... wasn't meant to be controversial at all.  

[Kuala76]

Hawk - I don't know where I said anything about having to STOP or GRAB a handful of brakes upon seeing the waving yellow, nor do I even think that's a good idea.  CCS rules state:

4.2.3 Yellow flag - Waving - indicates a potentially hazardous situation on or
near the racing line or in a crash impact area. No passing is allowed
from the flag stations displaying the waving yellow flag until the rider is
beyond the incident.

If you had passed the incident and hadn't yet gotten to the second waving then you wouldn't have been in violation of the flags, therefore my hypothetical "what should the penalty be" would not apply to that situation anyway.  On the other hand, what if you had passed the waving yellow station, didn't make the pass because you hadn't passed the second incident (being cautious and adhering to the no passing standard), but someone passed YOU for position between the waving yellow and the incident - your caution and your adherence to the flags just cost you a position - should the passing rider be assessed a penalty? 

[Jeff]

People who blatantly disregard things (pit speeds, yellow lines, flags, etc) can/should and generally are - dealt with.

Warn 'em
Fine 'em
Kick them out

[HAWK]

First of all I never implied that you said to stop or grab a handful of brake, I only stated that many riders will do just that and when they do I will try as hard as I can to get around them before the flag. What I was trying to point out is that you might be the worker in the second station and see me come by your waving yellow hot and make a pass (two bikes in my example) feet before your flag. Per the rule book this is a legal pass but looks like full on racing into a waving yellow flag. This all points back to my original post of what is over-riding of a waving yellow? Or a red flag? There are tracks where you cannot roll an ambulance for an injured rider until the track is cleared, I broke an ankle in a crash in the carousel at Black Hawk Farms and specifically told the corner worker NOT to send out the ambulance, I could wait. The ambulance must cross the track and obviously requires a red flag, had I been more seriously injured wouldn't you want the riders to clear the track quickly so that you could get the ambulance to the injured rider. When I see a red flag I put a hand up and reduce my speed but proceed quickly to the exit so that things stay on schedule and injuries can be attended to as quickly as possible. I was just asking for definition so that I could speak inteligently on the matter.

I was not trying to be a jerk and don't want to be treated as such either. Please clarify what your original statement of over-riding a waving yellow or red flag means.

[Kuala76]

Hawk - it is clear from your attention to this matter, and your responses here, that you are probably not the type of rider/racer which I was trying to address or draw comment about.  It may be foreign to you but there are actually riders/racers who continue to RACE through red flags...meaning high speed and passing!!!!!! 

This wasn't meant to "nit pick" on flag proceedures and it wasn't meant to attempt to get penalties assessed to each and every person who ever in our opinion "blows a flag".  Since every situation is different, a lot is left to the particulars of each incident.  The above example would be a clear description of "blowing the flag" and in my opinion would warrant some type of penalty.  I know you are wanting me to give a definition of the "blowing the flag" but unfortunately I can't other than to say any action outside of the rule book, but even then, some actions I wouldn't consider to be blatantly "blowing the flags". 

All of the circumstances you have described and the actions you have taken (or would take) in response to those circumstances all seem valid and reasonable.  Once again you are correct with regard to attempting to clear the track after a red flag quickly (but reasonably) to get emergency response out there.

"I was not trying to be a jerk and don't want to be treated as such either. Please clarify what your original statement of over-riding a waving yellow or red flag means." 

- I don't know where in my post you felt I may have been treating you like a "jerk" but I appologize if you felt that way, it wasn't my intent.  I was trying to make the point that your actions described (passing PRIOR to the yellow - etc) would have been in compliance with the rules. By my comments regarding someone passing under the waving yellow and gaining position was just another attempt to veer away from the "questionable" moves to what would obviously be against protocol under flag conditions.   

More thought is going into this with regard to specific situations than I was anticipating :(.  I was assuming I guess that people would understand that I was speaking of blatant disregard for the flags, not circumstances that can left to interpretation :(

[Burt Munro]

Kumi,

I think I get where you're coming from on this.  You're asking if there is a standard or consistent policy on how the infraction is dealt with in various track day organizations.  Not so much how you think it should be handled as much as how IS it handled.

I think this is an excellent question that would best be answered by people responsible for the track day, the Track Day Director, if you will.  People such as Monte from STT or Garth from NESBA, who frequent this board could describe how this has been handled on their watch.  

Is it 1 strike and you're out?  Or does it depend on the severity of the infraction that gains a rider a 2nd strike?

I think everyone on here has an opinion as to what they would do.  But that doesn't give us the consistency that should be in place.

From another perspective it might be interesting to get the comments of Control Riders as to how this was handled when they observed an infraction on track.  Have you seen consistency in a 1 strike, 2 strikes or even 3 strikes action taken for track days?  

Any Track Day Directors or Control Riders out there who are willing to share their policies?

Rick

[HAWK]

I was only listing specific issues to try and nail down over-riding. I fully agree that passing under a waving yellow or red is unacceptable and furthermore very black and white. However, over-riding is a rather broad brush stroke that could encompass some of the examples I mentioned. My concern here is whether there is a clear line or will something be acceptable at one venue and not at another. My interpretation is that as long as I don't pass or crash into the incident I am within the rules for a waving yellow and as long as I am off race pace (not dragging a knee, hanging off etc) and don't pass I am within the rules for a red flag.

Usually the race organizers and or trackday groups will take a rather firm stand against these incidents, the checkered flag victory lap is usually dealt with by public humiliation tactics unless it becomes a regular occurance. The red or yellow flag incidents are frequently enforced by the track for insurance reasons at track days, but the racing penelties are as Jeff pointed out spelled out in the rule book. The debris wave off is one that I have never seen a specific penalty for. The key here is whether the organizer knew about the situation, were they notified? I have to wonder if some of the incidents were not followed through because someone somewhere in the chain wasn't sure if it was right or wrong. I agree that there should be punishment for safety infractions but we should all be on the same page, both as to what constitutes an infraction as well as what is done about it. Your post is a start in the right direction by trying to get the penalties clarified so that everyone knows what will happen if they break the rules, I just want to know exactly what is considered breaking the rules. If the gray areas are eliminated in everyones minds then this will become much less of an issue.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Well we've had riders at BHF acknowledge the debris wave off to them and STILL continue around. Seems to be worse and worse every season. Line vioations at BHF seem to be down a bit, but dammit if you get the debris flag wave off pointed at you, PULL THE FUCK OFF!! Theres a reason its being pointed at you. May be something simple as leathers unzipped, something hanging or loose or you may be leaking oil bad. If we get you off asafp, not only will we keep the possibility of oiling the track down, may save your ass if we get you before your rear oils up and may even save the motor. I know theres a couple corners where its hard to tell, but dont nod your head and keep going around with your hand up. There should be a penalty for not obeying a debris flag off. But then again much like any penalties handed out in the MW, there is no consistancy. But one of these days someone is gonna be waved off around 3 and keep going around all while leaking oil everywhere. Then its gonna be a min of 2-3hr clean up. Remember that one a few years ago in 3a where we had to shut the races down for the day to try to scrub that synthetic oil off the surface with simple green and 100's of gallons of water.

As for red flag situations. You are supposed to slow down, put your hand up and no passing period. Isnt the time for doing wheelies (which are no-nos anyways). Just roll around in 2nd or 3rd to the hot pit.

And on to wheelies (not talking power ones out of corners during the race either, but the pulled ones after the race or during red flags). Every riders meeting I've been to with CCS MW, Bill keeps saying "No wheelies, stoppies or burnouts", but yet we still have a few select "special people" who just cant seem to comprehend what 'no' means. $50 fine means nothing to some of these people. Maybe if they were told they are done for the weekend may get it through their heads. Seen a couple rather dangerous ones already this year on the cool down. One of these days someones gonna go down doing one.

[TheHiriser]

There are times when a racer does not see flags for several corners, so nailing them with a penalty after blowing one flag is probably not appropriate. 

If they don't see a debris point for several corners they shouldn't be racing, period, end of discussion.  Part of racing is being aware of the track condition and that is communicated by the flaggers.  There is no excuse for blowing several in my opinion.  You don't see them?  Bull.

You also have to realize the excuse of not seeing them is even more bogus considering most of us either race ourselves, are former racers or aspiring racers.  We either know from racing where the riders are more apt to see the flags or we are told by racing cornerworkers. 

Irregardless this whole thread started out differently and IMHO for track day orgs it should be an ass chewing first, second time you get another ass chewing and miss the next session, third time and you are gone.

Like Kumi said we do a lot of stuff relying on people to adhere to the flags.  During the WERA endurance this year I jumped over the tire wall in T7 on riders right standing about 1-1/2-2 feet from the track while riders were coming straight at me going atleast 80-100mph depending on the rider.  I pushed a bike backwards, up an embankment and away from the track surface.  Knowing most WERA riders slow up and generally go single file with no passing gave me the confidence to do that.  Am I a touch crazy?  Most would say yes but I had that confidence in the riders.  Earlier in that day had an incident occurred where a rider buzzed me or a fellow worker I wouldn't have done that and called for a red flag potentially changing the outcome of the race.  Which would you guys prefer?

[TheHiriser]

You want specifics here you go.  At Pocono this past weekend a "CONTROL RIDER" buzzed past a cornerworker and Pocono fire during a full course red flag at race speed.  Keep in mind they were in the middle of the track and the rider came mere feet from them.

What should have been done to that rider in your opinion?

[Simon]

There is absolutetly no excuse for over riding a red flag. It just puts corner workers and other riders in danger. Last year me and two others nearly got our clocks cleaned in turn 5 at Summit when we were picking up a bike and  attending to an injured rider who was down on the track. It was a good 15-20 seconds after the red flag was thrown...the rider got a $50 fine and a major chewing from the race director. Rightly so!

[Kuala76]

Who gets the $50??  I think at Summit it should go to the MARRC Injured Riders Fund, other wise to the Air Fence Fund 

The more I thought about the reactions I had to this post, the more I realized that I don't think racers/riders actually think through the things that are going on in the corners while waving yellow or red.  Every thing we do out there is done to assist the riders/racers in the most efficient manner, and to keep races flowing as quickly & easily as possible.  I would hate for it to come to us waiting around until all riders are in the pits before tending to something/someone on the track :(

[TheHiriser]

I would hate for it to come to us waiting around until all riders are in the pits before tending to something/someone on the track :( 

Sad to say but I think that is where things are headed.  I'm not putting my ass on the line anymore if things like this continue to happen.  Someone else said they pay good money to race and win, well I don't pay anything and don't get paid either.  What incentive do I have to run out during a race and pick up a bike off a hot track?  None, I don't get points, contingency money or anything. I do it because I want to see good racing, I do it because I don't want to see anyone get hurt.  I do it because I love the sport.  I don't do it to get run over.

I'll get off the soap box now and stop preaching  , I'm done with this subject.

[Super Dave]

Any Track Day Directors or Control Riders out there who are willing to share their policies?

I've seen situations where riders that are drawing flack from either the riders or corner workers have to do a "sit out" in track day situations;  they can't participate in the next session.  That's a good "fine" for a track day rider as they are paying to ride all day. 

I can't remember if it was in an STT day or another independent group.  I've only been to a couple Nesbian days, so I know that didn't happen in them.

[Super Dave]

What incentive do I have to run out during a race and pick up a bike off a hot track?  None, I don't get points, contingency money or anything. I do it because I want to see good racing, I do it because I don't want to see anyone get hurt.  I do it because I love the sport.  I don't do it to get run over.

I'll get off the soap box now and stop preaching  , I'm done with this subject.

No, I feel for you.

I think there are lots of people in racing that recognize that corner workers love the sport.  It's important to me that you know that I appreciate what you do.  Again, it's a few bad apples that spoil it for us all.

[Kuala76]

Hey thanks Dave  Luckily the majority of riders/racers we run into feel the same way you do - if the majority were NOT, I think we'd have an even HARDER time getting people out there on the corners! 

[Suzy]

Couple years ago, don't remember the number, but he got the debris flag wave off at corner 3 at BHF, with smoke coming out he just continued to ride, every corner giving him the flag, and he just waved his hand at us, like he was saying to himself, yea, yea, I know attitude and rode all the way around to pit in. He was going slow enough not to drop fluids. But obviously, he didn't read the rulebook. 

I think it should be brought up at every rider's meeting, every time. Maybe all rider's should have a flag meeting before races too, like we do before working. Because you always will have new riders that may not have read the rule book. 

[TheHiriser]

Trouble is, and I'm not pointing anyone out, with having these things pointed out during the meetings is you have people that think they've heard it all and aren't paying attention.  The people that think this time is best used joking with their buddies.  Or someone who is so ramped out to get out there they are thinking of their break markers and turn in points instead of listening.  Unfortunately I think what needs to happen is the offenders need to be spanked hard.  Penalties and fines.  I bet then these sorts of incidents would stop happening.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Suzy, theres a LOT of things brought up at the riders meeting, but as Mike pointed out, theres not much listening going on.

[TheHiriser]

It'll take someone getting hurt in order for things to change it seems.  I think that is the only reason not much is made of these types of incidents when they happen.

[SVbadguy]

In the Mid-Atlantic region all the flags are discussed at least once during the Saturday riders meeting and then some again on Sunday.

[barb_arah]

Some riders don't even show up to the meetings, let alone not pay attention. 

[Suzy]

I do realize there is alot of stuff against getting a rider to do what you need him to do.  Is there a fine impossed when a rider does not show up for a meeting, would it do any good?

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

No fine for not showing up. Even when its 'threatened', still about half dont show. Much like the blend line rule at BHF. How many times have we had people WHO RACED THERE REGULARLY cross the blend line coming out of the pits? Or people who go out in the wrong practice session?

[r1owner]

At Road America this year, I passed two riders coming up the front straight under a waving yellow.  I saw the flag, but was going so fast, I didn't have time to register what I'd just did.  After turn 1, it all caught up to me and I realized what I'd done.  So after T2, I waved both riders back by me.