Over Running Flags - Penalty??

[Kuala76]

Hello all! Worked a couple of track days at Pocono this past weekend.  There were many instances of riders "over riding" both the waving yellows and reds & riders MID PACK running the checker to get in that one last lap  .  So what do you..(both riders and corner marshals) think is an appropriate penalty for over riding flags?  Over riding red? waving yellow? Blowing a debris point and continuing to the pit?  Running the checker?  Should the penalty differ between track days and races?  What do you think??

[Jeff]

in racing there is a penalty.  Generally it's being docked a lap for passing under waving yellow.

For the debris flag I've never heard of a penalty.  If someone is stupid enough to ride through dirt/oil/crap on the track, they will probably pay the price...

On the red flag, if you act stupid and get caught, you'll most likely get a fine and a big ass chewing...

Track days are regulated by the organization running them, not the race org.

[HAWK]

What is the definition of over riding the waving yellow? The org I ride with allows full speed racing with no passing from flag to incident. Red flag, reduce speed and proceed safely to the pits, no passing from flag to track exit.

[Kuala76]

Hey there Jeff!  Yes, I know there are penalties for such behavior - I have actually RTFRB   for both CCS and WERA - being as those are the organizations that I generally have contact with.  I was just putting this up there as more of a discussion question to see what the positions of different folks would be (ie. how seriously this is taken on an individual basis - and what different folks would think an "appropriate" penalty would be).

~As for the debris, I didn't mean just a debris flag (I mirror your opinion as to if they are stupid enough to run through it they will probably pay their own penalty!! :))- I was speaking of the debris POINT.  

~For example, I think if a rider is dropping - is debris pointed and does not pull off immediately causing oil on the track - that rider should be out there with us cleaning up the mess he/she left  

I know that "penalty" will not be implemented in racing - but again, just opening the discussion to people's thoughts :)  

[Jeff]

Kumi,

There are times when a racer does not see flags for several corners, so nailing them with a penalty after blowing one flag is probably not appropriate.  Additionally, there are times when it's safer to simply blow past a rider under a waving yellow.

I've come up on lappers right as the waving yellow was pulled.  My closing speed was already a good 20mph faster, and they grabbed a handful of brakes, quickly increasing that closing speed to 40, 50 or more MPH.  By the time I see that flag, I can't shave off 40-60mph, so it's simply better to just go around them.

Most of the time the corner workers see and understand what happens and accept it.  I have had to explain myself twice to the race director.  Once he saw in my favor, once he did not...

Nobody makes it a habit to blow flags, it just sometimes happens.

[HAWK]

Last year in a wet race I passed a waving yellow in 6, caught two rider afraid of the water and running over 20 mph off my pace, waited till we passed rider off in 7, started to pass them and saw a waving yellow in 8, aborted a pass that I could easily have made before the flag station and in the process let the leaders get away. Will I ever balk on a pass that I know I can complete before a waving yellow? No. Is that wrong? No. Some riders will grab a handful of brakes when they see a waving yellow and that is their choice but the rule book says nothing about reducing speed, only that there is an incident on or near the track and no passing. If you want to win you don't slow down for the flag, only as required for the situation. Unless a rider crashes because he is going too fast for the incident on or near the track he is not going too fast for a waving yellow in my book.

Please don't take any of the above the wrong way, I very much appreciate the work you guys do for us and the safety it brings to the event. On the other hand I also paid a lot of money to try to win that event and will do EVERYTHING inside of the rules to get that win.

[Kuala76]

Again, Jeff, this wasn't a post to "flame the racers" nor was it a post to "hang and burn em" type thing and I am hoping that the tone of my original post was not such.  I KNOW that there are always exceptions to every issue and circumstances surrounding every incident.  And yes, most of the time corner workers see it and accept what happens, maybe giving the information to the sanctioning body to deal with.  You may personally have never blown a flag and put anyone in danger, but you can't say that it never happens.  As with any penalty in racing, I wasn't looking for a hard fast and steady answer for EVERY racer/rider who has EVER blown a flag, just for what the thoughts were on affective penalties.  Again, in my mind I was thinking of the BLATANT disregard for the flags, not the instances you spoke of.

~We as corner workers really do rely on the riders/racers adhering to the flag conditions. I am out there for the love of the sport and to help contribute to the safety of the sport as much as I can and have a blast doing it.  There were several times this past weekend where flag running was an issue and therefore, it was on my mind.  Just wanted others views on this issue... wasn't meant to be controversial at all.  

[Kuala76]

Hawk - I don't know where I said anything about having to STOP or GRAB a handful of brakes upon seeing the waving yellow, nor do I even think that's a good idea.  CCS rules state:

4.2.3 Yellow flag - Waving - indicates a potentially hazardous situation on or
near the racing line or in a crash impact area. No passing is allowed
from the flag stations displaying the waving yellow flag until the rider is
beyond the incident.

If you had passed the incident and hadn't yet gotten to the second waving then you wouldn't have been in violation of the flags, therefore my hypothetical "what should the penalty be" would not apply to that situation anyway.  On the other hand, what if you had passed the waving yellow station, didn't make the pass because you hadn't passed the second incident (being cautious and adhering to the no passing standard), but someone passed YOU for position between the waving yellow and the incident - your caution and your adherence to the flags just cost you a position - should the passing rider be assessed a penalty? 

[Jeff]

People who blatantly disregard things (pit speeds, yellow lines, flags, etc) can/should and generally are - dealt with.

Warn 'em
Fine 'em
Kick them out

[HAWK]

First of all I never implied that you said to stop or grab a handful of brake, I only stated that many riders will do just that and when they do I will try as hard as I can to get around them before the flag. What I was trying to point out is that you might be the worker in the second station and see me come by your waving yellow hot and make a pass (two bikes in my example) feet before your flag. Per the rule book this is a legal pass but looks like full on racing into a waving yellow flag. This all points back to my original post of what is over-riding of a waving yellow? Or a red flag? There are tracks where you cannot roll an ambulance for an injured rider until the track is cleared, I broke an ankle in a crash in the carousel at Black Hawk Farms and specifically told the corner worker NOT to send out the ambulance, I could wait. The ambulance must cross the track and obviously requires a red flag, had I been more seriously injured wouldn't you want the riders to clear the track quickly so that you could get the ambulance to the injured rider. When I see a red flag I put a hand up and reduce my speed but proceed quickly to the exit so that things stay on schedule and injuries can be attended to as quickly as possible. I was just asking for definition so that I could speak inteligently on the matter.

I was not trying to be a jerk and don't want to be treated as such either. Please clarify what your original statement of over-riding a waving yellow or red flag means.

[Kuala76]

Hawk - it is clear from your attention to this matter, and your responses here, that you are probably not the type of rider/racer which I was trying to address or draw comment about.  It may be foreign to you but there are actually riders/racers who continue to RACE through red flags...meaning high speed and passing!!!!!! 

This wasn't meant to "nit pick" on flag proceedures and it wasn't meant to attempt to get penalties assessed to each and every person who ever in our opinion "blows a flag".  Since every situation is different, a lot is left to the particulars of each incident.  The above example would be a clear description of "blowing the flag" and in my opinion would warrant some type of penalty.  I know you are wanting me to give a definition of the "blowing the flag" but unfortunately I can't other than to say any action outside of the rule book, but even then, some actions I wouldn't consider to be blatantly "blowing the flags". 

All of the circumstances you have described and the actions you have taken (or would take) in response to those circumstances all seem valid and reasonable.  Once again you are correct with regard to attempting to clear the track after a red flag quickly (but reasonably) to get emergency response out there.

"I was not trying to be a jerk and don't want to be treated as such either. Please clarify what your original statement of over-riding a waving yellow or red flag means." 

- I don't know where in my post you felt I may have been treating you like a "jerk" but I appologize if you felt that way, it wasn't my intent.  I was trying to make the point that your actions described (passing PRIOR to the yellow - etc) would have been in compliance with the rules. By my comments regarding someone passing under the waving yellow and gaining position was just another attempt to veer away from the "questionable" moves to what would obviously be against protocol under flag conditions.   

More thought is going into this with regard to specific situations than I was anticipating :(.  I was assuming I guess that people would understand that I was speaking of blatant disregard for the flags, not circumstances that can left to interpretation :(

[Burt Munro]

Kumi,

I think I get where you're coming from on this.  You're asking if there is a standard or consistent policy on how the infraction is dealt with in various track day organizations.  Not so much how you think it should be handled as much as how IS it handled.

I think this is an excellent question that would best be answered by people responsible for the track day, the Track Day Director, if you will.  People such as Monte from STT or Garth from NESBA, who frequent this board could describe how this has been handled on their watch.  

Is it 1 strike and you're out?  Or does it depend on the severity of the infraction that gains a rider a 2nd strike?

I think everyone on here has an opinion as to what they would do.  But that doesn't give us the consistency that should be in place.

From another perspective it might be interesting to get the comments of Control Riders as to how this was handled when they observed an infraction on track.  Have you seen consistency in a 1 strike, 2 strikes or even 3 strikes action taken for track days?  

Any Track Day Directors or Control Riders out there who are willing to share their policies?

Rick