Couple of class eligibility questions

[truckstop]

Should we change the rules to go back to restrict LW classes to EX500's, FZR400's and Honda Hawks?

No, but everyone with those bikes wishes that the Duc 750 wasn't allowed in UltraLW. Then again, if we didn't have them, we probably wouldn't have a class in the midwest where we're even remotely competitive so really I don't mind. (And I like Barney and the other guys who run them.) Whatev's. A lot of it is still about the rider. Put me on a Duc 750 and I'm still not going to be winning any races. I'm just happy to have a class to run in.

The funny thing to me about the original post is that the class that desleeved SV runs in with WERA doesn't allow built Hawks.

[George_Linhart]

Amen Scott!

I could have bought two SS spec SV650's or one well sorted SB SV650 for what I have into my 1000DS - and we are still working out bugs.  I am done racing for the year because of another catestrophic failure (occured on Lap 1 of the Thunderbike race at Road America).

What I have learned first hand is that the Ducatis consistently take a lot of tinkering and when things go wrong they are very expensive.  Unlike Scott, I am not nearly as handy with the tools and I do rely on a mechanic to do a lot of the work so it probably isn't the best track weapon for my skill set.  That said, I have always wanted to race a Ducati - its something about the sound and the feel which is just different.

Once I have the bugs out it should be pretty reliable and I believe it will be very fast; however, in retrospect and with emotional issues asside I believe I would have been better off getting an SV650 and spending the extra money on more track time and doing a weekend at the Freddie Spencer school.

George

[123user]

Reliable Ducati.... oxymoron.  I easily spend 15-20 hrs of prep. time after each weekend.    Some of its just regular stuff like cleaning, but doing the valves is time consuming, but also pulling the filter screen, retightening every bolt.   I'm pretty handy and can do a complete valve lash (every valve needs changing- opener and closer) in about 3 hours. 

A lot of racers couldn't find a ducati valve in 3 hours... there's a reason why there isn't a full grid of Ducs.

By the way George, I added a second oil cooler- temp stays constant at 250F.  Stop by and see it at the next race.

I raced a "built" hawk for two years, and did fairly well last year on it.  I decided it was a "put up or shut up" sort of deal- thus I'm on a new bike this year.  Paul Onley figured out the same thing on his Hawk... Instead of complaining, he bought an SV 

Again, if your not racing a full season... your not really serious about winning are you?   In which case, you have no business complaining about class suitability.  Show up, race every weekend, get knocked off the podium a few times by an outclassed bike... now you have something to complain about!

[ahastings]

I just don't see a 1000 anything being Lightweight although the rules allow it.

I haven't been beat by a Duc yet on my Sv in regional races, but there aren't many in my region. Although with a good rider I think a 1000 Duc would be an advantage over an SV. The biggest issue for most guys is the cost though. Lightweight classes are run by many due to the lower costs. I have a SB SV and it makes 10 more hp than my SS Sv, My buddy has an SS 800 with mild SB work and it makes the same hp with more torque than my SB built SV. I hear it is easy to get close to 100 hp out of an air cooled 1000 Duc.

[123user]

Being realistic, it costs about the same to get power out of either a 1000ss or an SV700.  I'm not sure what HP scale we're talking about.  So lets use a repeatable one. 

On a FactoryPro dyno a well built SV/SS would post about 68HP, a ducati DS /SS about 75.  Anything over 85HP (on a factory pro) starts getting pretty expensive for either.

The rumors of the 1000ds are just plain over-hyped.  The simple fact is that the SV is cheaper to buy, build, and maintain. 

Basically, if YOU have never disassembled a motor, rebuilt it, blueprinted it, YOU have no idea what it takes to build a good SS motor.  Your mechanic is going to either oversimplify or try to impress you.

Fact is, most racers are more concerned over the color of their plastic, than completely understanding the insides of their motors.     And while I'm up here, race plastic is an expensive rip off...  I've never seen the test data from anyone's wind tunnel that proves aftermarket bodywork really helps.  If your bodywork didn't come from the HRC or TZ-factory, its never been in a wind tunnel!!!

[truckstop]

Fact is, most racers are more concerned over the color of their plastic, than completely understanding the insides of their motors.     And while I'm up here, race plastic is an expensive rip off...  I've never seen the test data from anyone's wind tunnel that proves aftermarket bodywork really helps.  If your bodywork didn't come from the HRC or TZ-factory, its never been in a wind tunnel!!!

Ha! I know every time you see my bike you want to run over and tear all that damn plastic off... sorry.  Since X rode my bike in GTL I know for a fact that the bike as it is, is capable of running 6 or 7 seconds faster, so I'm concentrating more on my riding and more pressing issues like the brake sucking and the suspension being not right. Hey man, I'm a graphic designer, not a mechanic or engineer. 

Also, not complaining about the class structure, as I'm not competitive yet anyway, and it's been a great learning experience. I just wonder how many people would have stuck with the funny old machinery if the Ducs didn't dominate it.

[123user]

Jen, I haven't ridden your hawk, but I would bet that you don't need better brakes.  I rarely used heavy braking.  X is probably used to braking deep into the corner, but with the hawk, a simple downshift or two is usually sufficient.  Heavy trail braking just isn't necessary on such a small bike (mine weight 331) Note: I weight about 250 with leathers.  I think Paul weighs about 160!

Is that a Hurricane front end on yours,  the front wheel looks heavy.  When X told me he almost ran 1:22 on yours I was pretty impressed, luckily he didn't crash it... that's pretty close to the limit for a mildly built hawk.

At blackhawk, on the hawk, I only used the brakes in 1, 6, and 7- but very little in 7.  If that bike drove out as well as it pitched in, I'd still be riding it this year

[George_Linhart]

Arnie - you perfectly exemplify my point.  It is clearly the rider that is more important than the bike.  If it isn't the all about the rider, couldn't we argue that the SV650 is by far the best bike for the class since both the MW and NE regions are brutally dominated by SV650's?

As far as getting 100 BHP from the 1000DS motor - please define "easy" and let me know just how optimistic a dyno we can use.  Even if you can do some things just to pick up peak power on the Ducati, unless it is developed as a total package to lighten and balance everything as well as to provide for additional cooling (and with the corresponding expense of such an effort) will it last?  From my experience I would say the answer is no.

I have also thought about this a lot - ultimately, in terms of equipment doesn't it all come down to cubic dollars?  With the same money you would throw at the Ducati couldn't you build up a really super superbike SV to results in just as good of a package?  Before we even begin to debate if it is fair to spend that much money - isn't that a problem with running any true SB class against those who are willing and able to spend the money on the build?  I can tell you that if I didn't have the Ducati to spend money on I would be feeding the same money into a ultra-trick SV650 - basically from my competition's standpoint it should not matter...

Really, despite all these issues - doesn't your domination of the NE region demonstrate that we are all better off spending money on track time and training vs. equipment?  If I had the time I would - but I don't have the time so I just throw money at the problem...

George

[123user]

Hey George,

I've got a definition of "easy" for you.

Somebody else's time, somebody elses money.  I think you've also proved some of my points:

1: Benchracing is free!
2: Be competetive before complaining!
3: Put up or shut up!

[benprobst]

I say the Ducs are fine to be let in with the superbikes, like in WERA: supersport rules for the DUC and superbike classes. And in reality if you get beat you get beat, it really doesnt matter which bike beat you. However, i do have a pretty light full blow superbike chassis sv with a mild mild superbike motor as well as ram air, and at road atlanta I would lose in the neighborhood of 150-250 ft going down the back straight to a very healthy ss 1000ss. Where the ducs kill the svs is their torque, the svs are capable of making it back up under braking as well as tight "flick sections". I also think one reason there is so much complaining is that both national series hold their championship races at hp/torque tracks, and it results in scewed results vs. say blackhawk or talladega. All in all i just like giving you guys shit, ill race any bike anytime and if it meets the rules of the org. you choose to race with either shut up or dont race.

[123user]

Yeah, I know Ben.  I like to stir the pot too.  You really aught to ride one though before you make up your mind.   

Hey, my kx500/hawk hybrid is running again... you should come over and ride that too.  Watch out, sometimes the throttle sticks open.  I thought I was going to die the other day!  New shorts please!

Wait a minute... a 70 hp motor in a 230lb chassis, that shouldn't be legal for ultra light SB.   Well, I guess it isn't all about horsepower is it?

[benprobst]

eeehhhh, ill be done with all of this lightweight bull in a few months. Ill go down to road atlanta in october and either win a couple championships or lose a couple championships, then Ill move on to a big bike and see if i actually am capable of riding a motorcycle quickly. Hopefully someone buys my superbike for mucho money.