third class

[Ducmarc]

yes i'ts hopeless I think in AHRMA it's all expert

[Ducmarc]

I thought you were whining brickmen until I read your other thread are you out till Sept. or really really whining.and you would have to run it with amateurs or by it's self.

[cornerjunkie]

I was thinking that the intermediate class would be full of current faster amateurs.  We all know there are some combined expert/amatuer classes.  In these races, there are some AMs that don't get lapped by the experts, even in GTO.  These are the guys/gals that would be in the intermediate class and can run with the experts.  What we have to gain is getting these amatuers who refuse to move up to expert, out of the amatuer classes.  These faster amatuers are lapping the slower amatuers at almost the same speed as experts anyway.

[Super Dave]

I've talked to many racers, and their reasons far leaving the sport have nothing to do with class structure, or an inability to win a Championship, or be competitive.

They leave for three reasons:

#1 Cost.
#2 Family.
#3 Work.

While I do agree with those three reasons, I do know racers that have left because of various reasons related to classification, their "perceived cost of being competitive", and other reasons.  I've been around a lot of them myself all these years.

That isn't a complete answer to how something could be done in club racing, but after twenty and thirty plus years of WERA and CCS doing the same thing, there might be different opportunities.  LRRS has a different perspective, and they have quite a few entries every race.  Yes, the travel isn't so bad for them, but there are ideas to be gleaned.

Doing the same thing hasn't changed anything.  Why would one think that doing something a little different would harm the constant rotation of racers out of racing.  There is something to be gained.

If CCS could just retain riders renewing their licenses for longer periods, they would have more to work with on the finance side to keep themselves afloat better.  Kevin's got a big enough mortgage as it is, I'm sure.  Similarly, race tracks need the rental revenue.  And this is supposed to be fun.  If there are different avenues for fun beyond seventeen or more additional classes, I would hope that they would be explored.

[rogers1323]

I am on the fence on this one.  I agree that we should do as much as possible to keep racers for as long as possible so that we can maintain our sport.  Whether or not a 3rd classification would do that is anyone's guess. 

The bigger thing that I notice with this discussion is the idea of "I can't be competitive so I quit."  The reason that I have a problem with that is it reminds me of kids sports.  "Everyone should play so that it doesn't hurt their self esteem."  Or "We give trophies to everyone so that they can all feel equal."  We're racing.  It is supposed to be competitive, that's the entire idea.  I want to win because I've worked hard and become faster than the other people on the track.  Getting a trophy just because I showed up doesn't feel the same. 

This is my first year racing, and I'm getting to where I can run top 5 with the amateurs consistently, and top 10 if I'm a little off my pace.  I've already got enough points to go expert next year, so I won't be sandbagging like some (apparently) do.  I told myself that I could justify spending this much money for 2 years, one as an amateur to learn and the other as an expert to try to compete.  If I can't be competitive, then I can't justify the expense based on my current income.  If I start making enough money to truly be able to afford it, I would continue to race. 

For longevity of my career, top finishes would make me contingency and hopefully get some sponsorship help.  But the need to be competitive in order to keep racing is all based around the budget.  I just don't want this to become so PC that it kills the true nature of competition.

[ahastings]

I am on the fence on this one.  I agree that we should do as much as possible to keep racers for as long as possible so that we can maintain our sport.  Whether or not a 3rd classification would do that is anyone's guess. 

The bigger thing that I notice with this discussion is the idea of "I can't be competitive so I quit."  The reason that I have a problem with that is it reminds me of kids sports.  "Everyone should play so that it doesn't hurt their self esteem."  Or "We give trophies to everyone so that they can all feel equal."  We're racing.  It is supposed to be competitive, that's the entire idea.  I want to win because I've worked hard and become faster than the other people on the track.  Getting a trophy just because I showed up doesn't feel the same. 

This is my first year racing, and I'm getting to where I can run top 5 with the amateurs consistently, and top 10 if I'm a little off my pace.  I've already got enough points to go expert next year, so I won't be sandbagging like some (apparently) do.  I told myself that I could justify spending this much money for 2 years, one as an amateur to learn and the other as an expert to try to compete.  If I can't be competitive, then I can't justify the expense based on my current income.  If I start making enough money to truly be able to afford it, I would continue to race. 

For longevity of my career, top finishes would make me contingency and hopefully get some sponsorship help.  But the need to be competitive in order to keep racing is all based around the budget.  I just don't want this to become so PC that it kills the true nature of competition.

This is exactly the reason contingency payouts should be skewed more toward the experts. The motorcycle manufactures only pay experts except Buell. But most of the rest pay about the same for expert and amatuer. When I raced Am in 2003 I was winning tire money and other contingency and purse money and even then I didn't think it was right. In 2004 I went expert was turning slightly faster laptimes but didn't win squat. that is what causes most people to give up the sport- finances. Even though contingency isn't enough to make money, it is still helps defer some of the racing costs. I think if the contingency sponsors extended the expert payouts to top 8-10 and cut the am payouts to top 1-3 it would still give the top ams something but would still encourage more experts to stay in the sport. And like Dave is always preaching, we need less redundancy in the class structure.  GP and Superbike are  basically identical.  the 750 class is almost dead anymore.