third class

[Ducmarc]

+1 Dave I see you've put a lot of thought in this . I'm a second year amateur I'm 44 and if I wasn't injured I would have to move up next year that's OK but if I'm in the back of the pack every race at some point I'm going to stay home and paint the house that's lost revenue. I have 3 friends that have allready done that after moving from last year. and if you have to many bikes rent Friday. look at the 600 class 50 riders if I could not do top 10 I would not waste my money. knowing this I stay in light weight that's also lost revenue the plus side the FAST GUYS would have less back markers to complain about. what pisses me off is when the fast amateurs complain about backmarkers that's why we are AMATEURS

[Super Dave]

Yeah, I think it's all going to get worse for the racing organizations too. 

When I started racing, which was 20 years ago, it was filled with a lot of twenty somethings.  Now, it is filled with thirty somethings.  The demographic is getting older, and IRA investments are very attractive in comparision to racing. 

Yeah, there are hardcore riders that have been around for longer, myself included, but that only helps the average. 

[jeremy271]

I NOMINATE DAVE FOR PRESIDENT. I mean that too!

[spyderchick]

I've talked to many racers, and their reasons far leaving the sport have nothing to do with class structure, or an inability to win a Championship, or be competitive.

They leave for three reasons:

#1 Cost. Many racers bleed themselves dry, some getting into real financial hardship. Some come back because they love the sport.

#2 Family. They get married, have kids, perhaps they are caring for ailing parents. Whatever. Fact is, racing is not a priority in their lives at that time. Some do track days and an occasional race, some bring their kids back when they are old enough. Some never return, such is life.

#3 Work. These people place priority on their careers. Some have gone to school to set the foundation for their life, and may have found what they feel is the job of a lifetime, so they focus on that. If they do it right, they will have free time and money, and again, sometimes return to the sport after they get themselves in a comfortable position.


When you look at this sport overall, the ones who remain involved in any capacity have a passion for the sport, the others will always be transient for a variety of reasons, including those not stated above.

Changing class or competitor structure needs to be done on occasion, but to be honest, as club racers, we are the ones responsible for growing the sport. No one wants higher entry fees, but those few extra $$ could go towards marketing, right? But wait...they could also be spent for rider safety, or to pay more to the corner workers. It becomes a juggling act of numbers to make everything work in this sport.

And as a side note: as a slow assed female, it was still cooler to race (ahem: moving chicane :ahem) with the boys in our tiny little pond, that it would have been to be mid-pack with a bunch of females. Other women might want a class of their own. When they have a loud enough voice, I hope they get it.

[ccs183]

I love the sport.  It's my favorite thing to do bar none.  However- I will never make a living racing motorcycles- nor would I really want to.  Henceforth, I have to consider racing as a hobby- albeit an expensive one.  $3.00 + a gallon diesel fuel has really limited what I can do this year.

There's another subject you guys have been addressing that I wanted to chime in on.  It's the whole expert/amatuer/racing classes thing.  I started out on an SV650 several years ago- in one year I had accumulated enough points/wins etc to prompt ccs to move me to expert- I did not protest like almost everybody else I know.  Then I decided at some point to get a new 600.  Different world. completely.  And I still had white plates, because of my SV.  I quickly realized that in most races I was a roadblock.  I also wasn't learning anything while riding around in last place (not always, but mostly, last place that is).  Please don't get me wrong- I have nothing against the guys/gals who are fast-GOOD for them.  I just think that there is a gap in the rules/classes that enables a racer to keep white plates for different machines-even if they have no experience on said machine. 

Just my 3 cents.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

I think we also need to make it perfectly clear, the issue isn't what does it take to keep Amateur racers, it's how do we keep the Experts? Amateur status is a stepping stone, not a destination, Expert status is the destination (for those that don't wish to move on to AMA Pro racing). Even when I was an Amateur myself I was always confused as to why Amateurs recieve contingency or purse money for their accomplishments at a development level? I can understand awarding plaques as a sign of accomplishment, but nothing beyond that. To me Amateur status has always been purely for learning and gaining experience, yet some fast Amateurs go to great lengths to stay there as long as possible (like SD has already described).

I personally believe that contingency and purse payouts are the pivot point that could make the difference between racers staying in this sport as an Expert, or continueing in developing long term Amateurs who bail out after they finally get forced to go Expert and find they have to compete really hard for contingency or purse money, if any at all. I understand that going racing is expensive for Amateurs, but does anyone actually believe that it's somehow cheaper for an Expert to race? Right now someone can race competitively as an Amateur and look forward to payouts, but bring that same speed to the Expert ranks and you'll be lucky to see a payout at all. As SD said, the system is broke, we need to fix it! We need to have a system where racers are looking forward to advancing to Expert status, not fearing it for whatever reason. Part of that will be having a contingency and purse system that pay's more and further into the field, the other part is by not rewarding people for not advancing (those who stay Amateur as long as possible).

As it has been done for quite some time now, CCS advances Amateurs to Expert status on a somewhat flawed basis that doesn't include actual performance. I understand that there are alot of racers to have to qualify for Expert status every season and that there needs to be a reasonable way to deal with that quantity. Ultimately performance index (P/I) is not an accurate judge of your ability either since that's highly effected by the number of racers in each individual class, a 5th place finisher who fought hard all race long in the front group in a small entry class would get screwed really hard on their P/I compared to the 5th place finisher in a large class who may have not even been in the front group. Recently many of us benefitted by the development of a program which allows us to view our lap times online with a number of choices as to how we view that info. I imagine it wouldn't be that unreasonable to have a similar system which takes the same info already generated for us to view each race (which can have Amateurs and Experts combined in the info) and have it create a list of those who were within some percentage of the fastest Experts lap times in that same combined race. CCS could determine a percentage (say for example 120%) that would be the point where someone would be flagged as a potential Expert advancement, combine that lap time info with their finishing positions in those same respective races and it would be a good judge of someones ability. I understand the arguement that some people are only good at 1 track because they have done like 3 Million laps at that track at Track Days or something, but that would be proved when the person races at other tracks, if they don't race at other tracks then they should be fine with advancing anyways. I'm also not saying that someone has to be advanced to Expert immediately once they are flagged by the system, but I would think that there should also be a point where they will be advanced immediately because their up racing with the Top 5 or 10 Experts in their combined races anyways, not the actual Amateurs who are probably far behind them. Once flagged by the system (at more than 1 event) I think that should be the last season that person races as an Amateur, so if someone wants to stay Amateur their not going to be doing it at the front, this helps to force advancement of the fast people who are running 2 or more race series as an Amateur but intentionally never getting enough points to advance to Expert.

Racing is expensive as we all know, starting out is expensive as well, but we need to have a system which encourages people to not only WANT to advance, but encourages them to get up to speed so they CAN advance. We're currently stuck at this point where being ranked as an Amateur is comfortable, after all, why advance if your getting rewarded and don't have to advance? The constant influx of new Amateurs is not the problem, new racers will do what they have to do to race, even if they don't get contingency or purse payouts. I believe many of the Amateurs who  complain about needing contingency are the very ones who should be going Expert, if that's the case that should be the only year they have to 'suffer' without contingency anyways due to advancing to Expert status for the next season. We need rewards at the Expert level which encourage MORE expert racers to stay and race for longer, not just the Top 5 racers. Think about it this way, how many of the racers who bail out after 1 or 2 years as an Expert could have potentially worked their way up to being a Top 5 or 10 Expert given the financial incentives to do so sooner?

[Ducmarc]

I understand what you mean about contingency I know ducati does not reward but I'm not sure about the other brands and winning anything as an amateur is not as impressive  as being an expert.but if I never race again I have something to show for the hard work and sacrifice. maybe if I was 20 when I started I would throw out my rewards every year but I'm 44 and this is something I was not able to do when I was young. maybe that's ego I'm not sure .I am not new to the sport I've been around the sport since the early 80's but never had the opportunity to race.I guess the question is where do people race that are too old or slow to be a legitimate expert.but still have a drive with in them.I know this sport is not a poor man's sport. and your right Mike looking at expert it will be more  expensive .It's possible that the new expert comes in and is not prepared for the extra expense to be a competitive expert and gives up .I'm just wondering that maybe a middle class where  an experienced racer that is not a competitive expert can run in a semi'permanent class. they solved this years ago in drag racing by using brackets but I don't see how classes on times would ever work.

[chaplain220]

Great thread.  I gues I qualify as a...a...BACKMARKER , but as already has been said, this is a passion that I have made a priority.  I spend the money on bike, travel, fees, etc, because when I arrived two years ago in this madness, I felt like I was...home.  A sportsman's category would be great, minus the whole pink plate thing, and yes, I got 3 kids, lovin wife, career, and little or no chance of chasin a white plate down for a top podium spot, though I pull a good line, aint never hurt no one, and am steadily gaining experience.

The amateurs need to know when they arrive, that racing is everything they dreamed it would be, adventure and brotherhood, a touch of bling and show off, with a chance for rewards, achievement and advancement.  A lot of this depends on us, as well as the CCS.  The expert and more mature racer needs awards and an ability to achieve that will make the extra effort worth it.  And I believe something more.  I've noticed a lot of our experienced racers bring their families, friends and children with them.  The track for me is a place where my whole family participates, we get quality time, and my kids experience the challenge of trying your best, teamwork, and using defeat as an opportunity for victory. 

As chaplain, I have been able to see a side of our CCS officials, and they really do care about us, as well as are running a business.  It would be wise for the big commercial bike and gear manufacturers to court our amateurs a little more, and reward the experts a little better, and a sportsmans, (intermediate), category, could add a little longevity to our racing bros.  The best for me has been gridding with all of yoots, if you are the same at home and work as you are at the track, then a lot of communities and businesses are blessed. (mostly), Art.

[Jason748]

Well said Chaplain.     

[cornerjunkie]

This is a really good thread, I have learned some things.  As far as intermediate classes, it might be a good idea if it fit in the schedule.  I like being able to race in a lot of classes and if they had to fit in a new category by itself, I would have less choices.  The only way to make it work and keep the same number of classes is to have the intermediate category always combined in a race with experts.  I raced in the Loudon series a couple of times my first year racing and that is what they did there.  They had a Junior category (white plates with red numbers) that raced with the experts.  I haven't been to a Loudon race since then but it looks like they still do it only now it is Novice, Amatuer, Expert.

I also like what GSXR RACER MIKE had to say.  I am an Amatuer who now occasionally perfoms well enough to get contingency money.  Of course I am happy to get it, but I could live without it if it meant that there would be more opportunity to get it as an expert.  Even though I have been racing a few years, this is the first year I have performed well enough to go expert next year.  I look forward to it in a lot of ways but haven't made up my mind yet if I want to move up for all the same reasons everyone else has.  We have all seen other AM racers do everything they can to stay AM or quit once they move up.  It shouldn't be that way.  If instead of getting contingency money now, I could get it as an expert finishing anywhere in the top 10 instead of top 5, I would be more likely to move up and so would everyone else.  Makes sense to me.

You don't need to encourage non-racers to become racers by giving contingency and purses.  They do it because they want to.  At least half of the AMs that get money are ones that have been around for a while and should have moved up to expert.

[Ducmarc]

doesen't british superbike series run 2 differant plates one for factory and one for privateer in the same race. my thought on contingency I think  the rider with said product should get the bonus in other words if i'm 10th and i'm the first rider on bridgstones I should get the money.I say that because several races last year where mark tenn and I were the only ones on bridgestones he's on 18"rubber and has to run them why do I bother? and I ok with no amatur money I only got 200 tombstone bucks last year so I could live with out it.runnig the (blue) plates with the experts doesn't solve the backmarker issue though. I don't think we would have to loose any classes now that we use electronic timing we could safely combine some classes and maybe fill some grids  and if we have more riders we could rent friday run GT races and kickout those evil nesba riders ...(just kidding) seems most of us are there anyway

[BRICKMAN]

  So if they make a 3rd class and then put them in the same race as the experts what are we gaing from it? The Experts will still come around and lap the slower riders. You know I wish I was faster but being 48 and coming back after 7 years is tuff enuff. I wish people would pass with a little more care. Ive bit run into twice in 5 weekends and this last one put me out till Sept. Hey I forgot the rule about Bitchn and Monin