third class

[Ducmarc]

since it's slow on the forum any thoughts on an intermediate class. it seems we have a fast attrition rate. I think gxrmike said it was 3.5 years is that 1 year slow novice 1 yr fast novice 1 year slow expert .5 yr still slow then give up .I have several friends that either have moved up and quit or only race a couple a races to avoid moving. maybe a class where slow experts and fast amateurs could race.maybe use a performance index. didn't they have a Jr class in the 70's?

[Jeff]

Only if they run pink plates.

[Ducmarc]

you mean a girllie class??????? Iwas thinking a nice aarp color or a handicap sign .

[truckstop]

Ahem, Girlie class? While I'd be interested in a women's series like they have in Canada, I'm not sure there's enough women racing in the US for a girlie class. :P Maybe if y'all would stop picking on JZ more girls would think about it. ;)

Anyway... isn't this sort of chicken and egg? They have Novice/AM/EX some places, but then they have much larger fields. This seems like a smart thing as it keeps us rank noobs out of the mix, but I'm not sure it helps once you advance unless it makes it harder to get into Expert. It seems like it would be difficult to do this in regions where there's a large disparity between sizes of classes. I'm clinging to the hope that they keep ULWSB in the Midwest, even though they've combined the AMs and EXs because the class is so teeny and not getting any bigger. It'd be easy to have 3 levels for the middle weights, (where it seems to be most needed) but then how would you handle where someone goes if they move to light weight - or bring different bikes to race in different weight classes?

[Ducmarc]

i'm all for a womans series i've got a wife and 3 daughters that have an interest in racing you gather the women and we could put on something but thats not what i'm thinking about .smaller classes three waves mabe an extra race for 600s I think the grids would be larger for the  lighter classes all I run is light weight. I could not stand to run a class with no hope of at least a podium.what ideas does anybody have to keep us backmarkers racing

[truckstop]

I know what you meant, that's what all the smilies were for. As a female, I honestly don't know if I'd want a women's series or not. That's another question though - if a women's race series would promote getting more women into the sport or not. I dunno. Even back when I did a couple ice races in cars, winning a ladies class trophy seemed kind of... hollow. I have this crazy notion that in four wheels or on two, that gender shouldn't matter.

As for the original topic...
Kind of in the same vein, I'm not sure it's right to have more classes just for more people to have the chance to podium or that it would help.

People already complain about there being too many classes so I'm not sure that would change anything. Having a third plate color/level within the bigger existing classes might help... just don't know if that would work logistically.

And I'm not sure if the attrition is due to not getting on the podium... this is an expensive thing to do, and people run out of money, or move on, get injured, slow down, have families, etc.

[Ducmarc]

I wonder how well the Canadian league does. my daughter talks of racing in it .I think a woman's race as a side line would not work but a woman's weekend might.with the amount of woman pleasure riding and the interest the JZ thread made. right now amateur is a temporay class for riders they are there for a year and move up the good ones go up front the slow ones can't move  back so they ride in the back or quit.how many years can you use up your time money and energy to ride 15th or 20th.i'm going to the store will pick back up in a few hrs  marc

[Jason748]

Doesn't the LRRS have a third class?

Only if they run pink plates.

That's just pain mean    

[Ducmarc]

just checked and yes they do have 3 classes with  the champion moving up their points system is also based on the number of entries

[Super Dave]

I have advocated a three class system for some time. 

A "sportsman" type class with all the current classes.  Points, championships, etc.  Most current amatures would be part of that class with some current experts. 

A true amateur class that would have very limited classes, no points for any championships, and around a 18 month limit for a rider to learn the sport, if they choose...they could move to the sportsman class sooner, if they and the race director agree.

Finally, and expert class featuring fewer classes, a little longer races, higher entry fees, and a purse structure.

[HAWK]

I think there are already too many classes, the problem is that if you create a new novice class you dilute the number if entries and you now have three 5 bike races going on at once instead of two 8 bike races. This has ramafications in various ways, it makes scoring more dificult, changes contingency payouts, and in the grand scheme of things really doesn't change anything in terms of safety as you have the exact same riders on the track. Worst of all how do you handle the burden of additional races without shortening the race length? Right now there are several races where multiple classes run at the same time, ULW and LW being one example, you would have a 6 wave start or have to add another race to the schedule.

[Super Dave]

Well, I guess you'd need more information from me on my idea first...LOL!

The beginner class would have three classes.  Lightweight, Middleweight, and Unlimited.  Specifically, these would not be points paying classes, again, and they are for riders to learn the sport.  Currently, there are, what, seventeen classes?

I'd leave Sportsman the same as it is, although I think there are some that could be changed...merge Superbike into Grand Prix.

I think there would be six or eight expert classes. 

Overall, there should be room in a two day schedule for this.


Now, why?

Well, over all these years, the average "life" of a racer hasn't changed.  Couple, few years, then they are out.  Well, that's a lot of work to develop new customers.  Hence, there's something broken with the system, my opinion. 

There are riders that love racing, but fear the move to expert.  For some, that problem is so great that they quit when they are forced to wear the white plate.  That's a loss of revenue.  Some ride in many different organizations to maintain their amateur status.  That's a loss of revenue for some organization out there.  Next, there are experts that never feel that they will be able to compete with some of the other experts, and they leave the sport. 

Invariably, a lot of those riders just go do some track days.  They may never progress more in their riding, but it is a loss of revenue to the racing organization, period. 

It seems that adding more and more and more classes is the only answer for racing organizations to get more riders from an increasing population of motorcyclists.  But I can't say that racing organizations are seein generalized increases in overall growth because of more motorcyclists.  I know that it goes up and down in cycles, but I don't recognize there being so many more racers this year vs last year vs years ago.  I'm sure that CCS and WERA have other numbers, but I'm just generalizing on my own experiences. 

I think CCS still has that record of 2025 entries for the April Road America date in 2001.  That's six years old now.  We've probably went through two up and down cycles by now too.

[Ducmarc]

+1 Dave I see you've put a lot of thought in this . I'm a second year amateur I'm 44 and if I wasn't injured I would have to move up next year that's OK but if I'm in the back of the pack every race at some point I'm going to stay home and paint the house that's lost revenue. I have 3 friends that have allready done that after moving from last year. and if you have to many bikes rent Friday. look at the 600 class 50 riders if I could not do top 10 I would not waste my money. knowing this I stay in light weight that's also lost revenue the plus side the FAST GUYS would have less back markers to complain about. what pisses me off is when the fast amateurs complain about backmarkers that's why we are AMATEURS

[Super Dave]

Yeah, I think it's all going to get worse for the racing organizations too. 

When I started racing, which was 20 years ago, it was filled with a lot of twenty somethings.  Now, it is filled with thirty somethings.  The demographic is getting older, and IRA investments are very attractive in comparision to racing. 

Yeah, there are hardcore riders that have been around for longer, myself included, but that only helps the average. 

[jeremy271]

I NOMINATE DAVE FOR PRESIDENT. I mean that too!

[spyderchick]

I've talked to many racers, and their reasons far leaving the sport have nothing to do with class structure, or an inability to win a Championship, or be competitive.

They leave for three reasons:

#1 Cost. Many racers bleed themselves dry, some getting into real financial hardship. Some come back because they love the sport.

#2 Family. They get married, have kids, perhaps they are caring for ailing parents. Whatever. Fact is, racing is not a priority in their lives at that time. Some do track days and an occasional race, some bring their kids back when they are old enough. Some never return, such is life.

#3 Work. These people place priority on their careers. Some have gone to school to set the foundation for their life, and may have found what they feel is the job of a lifetime, so they focus on that. If they do it right, they will have free time and money, and again, sometimes return to the sport after they get themselves in a comfortable position.


When you look at this sport overall, the ones who remain involved in any capacity have a passion for the sport, the others will always be transient for a variety of reasons, including those not stated above.

Changing class or competitor structure needs to be done on occasion, but to be honest, as club racers, we are the ones responsible for growing the sport. No one wants higher entry fees, but those few extra $$ could go towards marketing, right? But wait...they could also be spent for rider safety, or to pay more to the corner workers. It becomes a juggling act of numbers to make everything work in this sport.

And as a side note: as a slow assed female, it was still cooler to race (ahem: moving chicane :ahem) with the boys in our tiny little pond, that it would have been to be mid-pack with a bunch of females. Other women might want a class of their own. When they have a loud enough voice, I hope they get it.

[ccs183]

I love the sport.  It's my favorite thing to do bar none.  However- I will never make a living racing motorcycles- nor would I really want to.  Henceforth, I have to consider racing as a hobby- albeit an expensive one.  $3.00 + a gallon diesel fuel has really limited what I can do this year.

There's another subject you guys have been addressing that I wanted to chime in on.  It's the whole expert/amatuer/racing classes thing.  I started out on an SV650 several years ago- in one year I had accumulated enough points/wins etc to prompt ccs to move me to expert- I did not protest like almost everybody else I know.  Then I decided at some point to get a new 600.  Different world. completely.  And I still had white plates, because of my SV.  I quickly realized that in most races I was a roadblock.  I also wasn't learning anything while riding around in last place (not always, but mostly, last place that is).  Please don't get me wrong- I have nothing against the guys/gals who are fast-GOOD for them.  I just think that there is a gap in the rules/classes that enables a racer to keep white plates for different machines-even if they have no experience on said machine. 

Just my 3 cents.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

I think we also need to make it perfectly clear, the issue isn't what does it take to keep Amateur racers, it's how do we keep the Experts? Amateur status is a stepping stone, not a destination, Expert status is the destination (for those that don't wish to move on to AMA Pro racing). Even when I was an Amateur myself I was always confused as to why Amateurs recieve contingency or purse money for their accomplishments at a development level? I can understand awarding plaques as a sign of accomplishment, but nothing beyond that. To me Amateur status has always been purely for learning and gaining experience, yet some fast Amateurs go to great lengths to stay there as long as possible (like SD has already described).

I personally believe that contingency and purse payouts are the pivot point that could make the difference between racers staying in this sport as an Expert, or continueing in developing long term Amateurs who bail out after they finally get forced to go Expert and find they have to compete really hard for contingency or purse money, if any at all. I understand that going racing is expensive for Amateurs, but does anyone actually believe that it's somehow cheaper for an Expert to race? Right now someone can race competitively as an Amateur and look forward to payouts, but bring that same speed to the Expert ranks and you'll be lucky to see a payout at all. As SD said, the system is broke, we need to fix it! We need to have a system where racers are looking forward to advancing to Expert status, not fearing it for whatever reason. Part of that will be having a contingency and purse system that pay's more and further into the field, the other part is by not rewarding people for not advancing (those who stay Amateur as long as possible).

As it has been done for quite some time now, CCS advances Amateurs to Expert status on a somewhat flawed basis that doesn't include actual performance. I understand that there are alot of racers to have to qualify for Expert status every season and that there needs to be a reasonable way to deal with that quantity. Ultimately performance index (P/I) is not an accurate judge of your ability either since that's highly effected by the number of racers in each individual class, a 5th place finisher who fought hard all race long in the front group in a small entry class would get screwed really hard on their P/I compared to the 5th place finisher in a large class who may have not even been in the front group. Recently many of us benefitted by the development of a program which allows us to view our lap times online with a number of choices as to how we view that info. I imagine it wouldn't be that unreasonable to have a similar system which takes the same info already generated for us to view each race (which can have Amateurs and Experts combined in the info) and have it create a list of those who were within some percentage of the fastest Experts lap times in that same combined race. CCS could determine a percentage (say for example 120%) that would be the point where someone would be flagged as a potential Expert advancement, combine that lap time info with their finishing positions in those same respective races and it would be a good judge of someones ability. I understand the arguement that some people are only good at 1 track because they have done like 3 Million laps at that track at Track Days or something, but that would be proved when the person races at other tracks, if they don't race at other tracks then they should be fine with advancing anyways. I'm also not saying that someone has to be advanced to Expert immediately once they are flagged by the system, but I would think that there should also be a point where they will be advanced immediately because their up racing with the Top 5 or 10 Experts in their combined races anyways, not the actual Amateurs who are probably far behind them. Once flagged by the system (at more than 1 event) I think that should be the last season that person races as an Amateur, so if someone wants to stay Amateur their not going to be doing it at the front, this helps to force advancement of the fast people who are running 2 or more race series as an Amateur but intentionally never getting enough points to advance to Expert.

Racing is expensive as we all know, starting out is expensive as well, but we need to have a system which encourages people to not only WANT to advance, but encourages them to get up to speed so they CAN advance. We're currently stuck at this point where being ranked as an Amateur is comfortable, after all, why advance if your getting rewarded and don't have to advance? The constant influx of new Amateurs is not the problem, new racers will do what they have to do to race, even if they don't get contingency or purse payouts. I believe many of the Amateurs who  complain about needing contingency are the very ones who should be going Expert, if that's the case that should be the only year they have to 'suffer' without contingency anyways due to advancing to Expert status for the next season. We need rewards at the Expert level which encourage MORE expert racers to stay and race for longer, not just the Top 5 racers. Think about it this way, how many of the racers who bail out after 1 or 2 years as an Expert could have potentially worked their way up to being a Top 5 or 10 Expert given the financial incentives to do so sooner?

[Ducmarc]

I understand what you mean about contingency I know ducati does not reward but I'm not sure about the other brands and winning anything as an amateur is not as impressive  as being an expert.but if I never race again I have something to show for the hard work and sacrifice. maybe if I was 20 when I started I would throw out my rewards every year but I'm 44 and this is something I was not able to do when I was young. maybe that's ego I'm not sure .I am not new to the sport I've been around the sport since the early 80's but never had the opportunity to race.I guess the question is where do people race that are too old or slow to be a legitimate expert.but still have a drive with in them.I know this sport is not a poor man's sport. and your right Mike looking at expert it will be more  expensive .It's possible that the new expert comes in and is not prepared for the extra expense to be a competitive expert and gives up .I'm just wondering that maybe a middle class where  an experienced racer that is not a competitive expert can run in a semi'permanent class. they solved this years ago in drag racing by using brackets but I don't see how classes on times would ever work.

[chaplain220]

Great thread.  I gues I qualify as a...a...BACKMARKER , but as already has been said, this is a passion that I have made a priority.  I spend the money on bike, travel, fees, etc, because when I arrived two years ago in this madness, I felt like I was...home.  A sportsman's category would be great, minus the whole pink plate thing, and yes, I got 3 kids, lovin wife, career, and little or no chance of chasin a white plate down for a top podium spot, though I pull a good line, aint never hurt no one, and am steadily gaining experience.

The amateurs need to know when they arrive, that racing is everything they dreamed it would be, adventure and brotherhood, a touch of bling and show off, with a chance for rewards, achievement and advancement.  A lot of this depends on us, as well as the CCS.  The expert and more mature racer needs awards and an ability to achieve that will make the extra effort worth it.  And I believe something more.  I've noticed a lot of our experienced racers bring their families, friends and children with them.  The track for me is a place where my whole family participates, we get quality time, and my kids experience the challenge of trying your best, teamwork, and using defeat as an opportunity for victory. 

As chaplain, I have been able to see a side of our CCS officials, and they really do care about us, as well as are running a business.  It would be wise for the big commercial bike and gear manufacturers to court our amateurs a little more, and reward the experts a little better, and a sportsmans, (intermediate), category, could add a little longevity to our racing bros.  The best for me has been gridding with all of yoots, if you are the same at home and work as you are at the track, then a lot of communities and businesses are blessed. (mostly), Art.

[Jason748]

Well said Chaplain.     

[cornerjunkie]

This is a really good thread, I have learned some things.  As far as intermediate classes, it might be a good idea if it fit in the schedule.  I like being able to race in a lot of classes and if they had to fit in a new category by itself, I would have less choices.  The only way to make it work and keep the same number of classes is to have the intermediate category always combined in a race with experts.  I raced in the Loudon series a couple of times my first year racing and that is what they did there.  They had a Junior category (white plates with red numbers) that raced with the experts.  I haven't been to a Loudon race since then but it looks like they still do it only now it is Novice, Amatuer, Expert.

I also like what GSXR RACER MIKE had to say.  I am an Amatuer who now occasionally perfoms well enough to get contingency money.  Of course I am happy to get it, but I could live without it if it meant that there would be more opportunity to get it as an expert.  Even though I have been racing a few years, this is the first year I have performed well enough to go expert next year.  I look forward to it in a lot of ways but haven't made up my mind yet if I want to move up for all the same reasons everyone else has.  We have all seen other AM racers do everything they can to stay AM or quit once they move up.  It shouldn't be that way.  If instead of getting contingency money now, I could get it as an expert finishing anywhere in the top 10 instead of top 5, I would be more likely to move up and so would everyone else.  Makes sense to me.

You don't need to encourage non-racers to become racers by giving contingency and purses.  They do it because they want to.  At least half of the AMs that get money are ones that have been around for a while and should have moved up to expert.

[Ducmarc]

doesen't british superbike series run 2 differant plates one for factory and one for privateer in the same race. my thought on contingency I think  the rider with said product should get the bonus in other words if i'm 10th and i'm the first rider on bridgstones I should get the money.I say that because several races last year where mark tenn and I were the only ones on bridgestones he's on 18"rubber and has to run them why do I bother? and I ok with no amatur money I only got 200 tombstone bucks last year so I could live with out it.runnig the (blue) plates with the experts doesn't solve the backmarker issue though. I don't think we would have to loose any classes now that we use electronic timing we could safely combine some classes and maybe fill some grids  and if we have more riders we could rent friday run GT races and kickout those evil nesba riders ...(just kidding) seems most of us are there anyway

[BRICKMAN]

  So if they make a 3rd class and then put them in the same race as the experts what are we gaing from it? The Experts will still come around and lap the slower riders. You know I wish I was faster but being 48 and coming back after 7 years is tuff enuff. I wish people would pass with a little more care. Ive bit run into twice in 5 weekends and this last one put me out till Sept. Hey I forgot the rule about Bitchn and Monin

[Ducmarc]

yes i'ts hopeless I think in AHRMA it's all expert

[Ducmarc]

I thought you were whining brickmen until I read your other thread are you out till Sept. or really really whining.and you would have to run it with amateurs or by it's self.

[cornerjunkie]

I was thinking that the intermediate class would be full of current faster amateurs.  We all know there are some combined expert/amatuer classes.  In these races, there are some AMs that don't get lapped by the experts, even in GTO.  These are the guys/gals that would be in the intermediate class and can run with the experts.  What we have to gain is getting these amatuers who refuse to move up to expert, out of the amatuer classes.  These faster amatuers are lapping the slower amatuers at almost the same speed as experts anyway.

[Super Dave]

I've talked to many racers, and their reasons far leaving the sport have nothing to do with class structure, or an inability to win a Championship, or be competitive.

They leave for three reasons:

#1 Cost.
#2 Family.
#3 Work.

While I do agree with those three reasons, I do know racers that have left because of various reasons related to classification, their "perceived cost of being competitive", and other reasons.  I've been around a lot of them myself all these years.

That isn't a complete answer to how something could be done in club racing, but after twenty and thirty plus years of WERA and CCS doing the same thing, there might be different opportunities.  LRRS has a different perspective, and they have quite a few entries every race.  Yes, the travel isn't so bad for them, but there are ideas to be gleaned.

Doing the same thing hasn't changed anything.  Why would one think that doing something a little different would harm the constant rotation of racers out of racing.  There is something to be gained.

If CCS could just retain riders renewing their licenses for longer periods, they would have more to work with on the finance side to keep themselves afloat better.  Kevin's got a big enough mortgage as it is, I'm sure.  Similarly, race tracks need the rental revenue.  And this is supposed to be fun.  If there are different avenues for fun beyond seventeen or more additional classes, I would hope that they would be explored.

[rogers1323]

I am on the fence on this one.  I agree that we should do as much as possible to keep racers for as long as possible so that we can maintain our sport.  Whether or not a 3rd classification would do that is anyone's guess. 

The bigger thing that I notice with this discussion is the idea of "I can't be competitive so I quit."  The reason that I have a problem with that is it reminds me of kids sports.  "Everyone should play so that it doesn't hurt their self esteem."  Or "We give trophies to everyone so that they can all feel equal."  We're racing.  It is supposed to be competitive, that's the entire idea.  I want to win because I've worked hard and become faster than the other people on the track.  Getting a trophy just because I showed up doesn't feel the same. 

This is my first year racing, and I'm getting to where I can run top 5 with the amateurs consistently, and top 10 if I'm a little off my pace.  I've already got enough points to go expert next year, so I won't be sandbagging like some (apparently) do.  I told myself that I could justify spending this much money for 2 years, one as an amateur to learn and the other as an expert to try to compete.  If I can't be competitive, then I can't justify the expense based on my current income.  If I start making enough money to truly be able to afford it, I would continue to race. 

For longevity of my career, top finishes would make me contingency and hopefully get some sponsorship help.  But the need to be competitive in order to keep racing is all based around the budget.  I just don't want this to become so PC that it kills the true nature of competition.

[ahastings]

I am on the fence on this one.  I agree that we should do as much as possible to keep racers for as long as possible so that we can maintain our sport.  Whether or not a 3rd classification would do that is anyone's guess. 

The bigger thing that I notice with this discussion is the idea of "I can't be competitive so I quit."  The reason that I have a problem with that is it reminds me of kids sports.  "Everyone should play so that it doesn't hurt their self esteem."  Or "We give trophies to everyone so that they can all feel equal."  We're racing.  It is supposed to be competitive, that's the entire idea.  I want to win because I've worked hard and become faster than the other people on the track.  Getting a trophy just because I showed up doesn't feel the same. 

This is my first year racing, and I'm getting to where I can run top 5 with the amateurs consistently, and top 10 if I'm a little off my pace.  I've already got enough points to go expert next year, so I won't be sandbagging like some (apparently) do.  I told myself that I could justify spending this much money for 2 years, one as an amateur to learn and the other as an expert to try to compete.  If I can't be competitive, then I can't justify the expense based on my current income.  If I start making enough money to truly be able to afford it, I would continue to race. 

For longevity of my career, top finishes would make me contingency and hopefully get some sponsorship help.  But the need to be competitive in order to keep racing is all based around the budget.  I just don't want this to become so PC that it kills the true nature of competition.

This is exactly the reason contingency payouts should be skewed more toward the experts. The motorcycle manufactures only pay experts except Buell. But most of the rest pay about the same for expert and amatuer. When I raced Am in 2003 I was winning tire money and other contingency and purse money and even then I didn't think it was right. In 2004 I went expert was turning slightly faster laptimes but didn't win squat. that is what causes most people to give up the sport- finances. Even though contingency isn't enough to make money, it is still helps defer some of the racing costs. I think if the contingency sponsors extended the expert payouts to top 8-10 and cut the am payouts to top 1-3 it would still give the top ams something but would still encourage more experts to stay in the sport. And like Dave is always preaching, we need less redundancy in the class structure.  GP and Superbike are  basically identical.  the 750 class is almost dead anymore.