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Why do we race?

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EX_#76

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #72 on: May 10, 2007, 02:29:22 pm »
 :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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Sklossmonster

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #73 on: May 10, 2007, 02:48:39 pm »
Oh Chris.  I can't tell you how much I'd like to pull the gloves off and tell you exactly what I really think about you, your racing skills, and your many glorious championships ... but instead, I'll try sticking to the point.

First of all, I teed off on you because I'm sick of hearing your endless whining and holier than thou attitude, and somebody needed to call you out on it.  

Yes, I used a ridiculous extreme to make a point.  Sound familiar?  I don't think anyone will disagree that getting punted at the apex is dirty pool.  No scat.  Similarly, no one will disagree that lining another rider up on the brakes is a perfectly legit pass, but "standing someone up" is a SUBJECTIVE TERM.

I've been "stood up" in a corner many times, and if I hadn't altered  my line I would've been punted.   Let me tell you a little story that I think sums it up quite nicely.

I was in practice at Gingerman last season, entering turn 2 (the long carousel right immediately after the left hand turn 1)  I was moving along at a pretty good clip, I had already committed to the right hand corner, ,knee on the deck, when low and behold a bike appeared.  There it was, like it or not, hot and heavy, inches away from me, and totally unexpected, forcing its way into my trajectory.  What did I do?  I spooked.  To be honest, it kind of freaked me out.  I didn't know there was another rider there, and I was kind of in my own world.  It was just practice, after all!

Well, when I stood it up, as I had to do to avoid my line and his line coming together, I overreacted.  If I had made a minor correction, and only stood it up a little, we would have proceeded side by side through the apex and fought for the line.  Instead I stood it WAY up, caught one of Gingerman's notorious seams, and almost crashed.  Not because another rider stuck his nose in my line, but  because I didn't have the skills and presence of mind not to overreact.

Later I saw that rider in the pits.  So did I hunt him down and make him pay for his reckless lack of responsibility? No. I walked over to him and said,
 "Hey man, you know that was only practice, right?  Kinda close in turn 2 there."  He replied, "Yeah, sorry about that, I was on a hot lap and didn't think you were going to be carrying that much speed. You know how it is."

And yes, I do know how it is.  Which is why I totally understood, held no grudge, and actually learned a little something in that corner that makes me better able to deal with RACING SITUATIONS that are TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR AT TRACK DAYS, but are part of what makes racing different from a track day.

No matter how long we argue about this it still comes down to trying to quantify a subjective issue.  Without a case by case analysis, and instant replay, it's kind of pointless.  The only reason I bothered to chime in on this waste of energy is because I've had no end to the amount of flack I've had to take for calling a spade a spade.  And it seems to be guys like you leading the charge.

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spyderchick

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2007, 03:17:39 pm »
And I though women were drama queens!


Not only are the men the REAL drama queens, they'll go the other route and gossip worse than washer women.  :ahhh:



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G 97

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2007, 03:27:02 pm »

Stop by the house some time, and I'll let you count my CCS championship trophies.  Bring both hands.


 :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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G 97

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2007, 03:40:51 pm »

.  If thats what it takes to be a real racer, Ill go bully my way around NESBA days until I'm ready to be a real racer  :blahblah:

:ahhh:


OK, but remember no passing in the corners in the Beginner group. 
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funsizeracing

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2007, 03:43:20 pm »
Not only are the men the REAL drama queens, they'll go the other route and gossip worse than washer women.  :ahhh:





 :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
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HAWK

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2007, 03:57:31 pm »
Marshall,  I agree with you that we all seem to have a different interpretation of what being stood up means. My beef is that your article goes on record as stating that it is OK to do it. Now does every Tom Dick and Harry agree with you what think being stood up means? NO. They do however all have a green light to do it now. Elsewhere you have made the statement that you didn't realize what you were starting with this article but that you thought the dialog was healthy.  Chris and Garth were engaging in said dialog when you pounced on Chris. BTW Garth has been quite vocal about bashing anyone who doesn't agree with him on this subject, myself included. He seems to have gone into hiding though, I'm still waiting to hear what he thinks of my post. (I think my first Nesba day is going to be very interesting) For the record, no matter what you might think, you can't be stood up in the braking zone.  If you are straight up and down you can't get anymore so. You might have to stay on the brakes a little longer before turning in but that is a very acceptable pass. Furthermore there is a big difference between being spooked and being stood up. In your example at Gingerman you got spooked, no shame there, it's happened to all of us, whether we're honest enough to admit it or not.  The situation here is that a lot of us are afraid that your article has put it out there that it is ok to stand someone up but no one can agree what is an acceptable definition. Look at my post a page or 2 back and tell me that you honestly think,

    1) it is not  a clear case of being stood up.
    2) that it is an acceptable pass.


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Paul Onley
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tstruyk

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2007, 04:07:21 pm »

OK, but remember no passing in the corners in the Beginner group. 

oh to one day be a (dare I) ADVANCED NESBA RIDER!!!!!  :ahhh:  Nah... I get spooked when people pass me...   :rollseyes:

Nesba lost the opportunity to make a (not for) profit on me a few years ago... not that I'm missed, i guess I'll never know whats it like be in the club...  :wah:

Quick one for Marshall... for my own curiosity... If the type of pass at G-man was acceptable, why did you search him out in the pits to question his motives for making a close pass in practice?  its not a TD, IMO very similar rules of engagement apply during practice as would a race. If racing is a 10... practice is a 9.5 (again IMO).  Would your response have been different if his reaction to your question was "maybe you should just do track days if that spooked you, your not ready to race"

Sounds like you took issue to a "questionable" pass, confronted him on it and where satisfied with his answer... what if you had fallen down?  would you feel the same way?  What if you broke your collar bone and been out for the weekend?  Blame him?  Blame yourself for not being prepared?  Where would it have gone from there?  What if he had overcooked the corner and hit you?  Would that have been too much?  In your opinion, where is the line drawn between hard racing, and irresponsability?

tim



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Sklossmonster

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2007, 04:25:29 pm »
Paul,

I went back and reread your description of when you were "stood up" (man I'm starting to hate that phrase!) in a previous race.  To be honest, without seeing it I can't make an informed opinion of it.  It sounds like an unacceptable pass, but again, I'd have to see it to make a judgement call.  But here's where it gets a little sticky ...

When we watch racingon TV, as I imagine we all do, we see numerous examples of riders standing each other up, it's just that the rider getting stood up has a hightened sense of feel and skill that allows them to make minor adjustments to their line instead of the major adjustments that often lead to off track excursions, arguments over etiquette, etc...

The case I described at Gingerman definitely "stood me up" but my overreaction to the intercepting bike was the real problem, not the fact another rider was sticking his nose in my line.

Another very real issue here is that at the club level you've got at least two distinct groups of "racers"  You've got the AMA licensed, hard nosed, highly skilled, hard core racers, who stand each other up all the time without issue (no blood no foul) and the "I've got to work on Monday, I'm just out here to have fun, No trophy is worth getting hurt" club racers who don't think a club race is the place to ride so aggressively.

Unfortunately, all these people are on the same track, at the same time.  And due to the fact that club racing combines, classes, amateurs and experts, races, etc... all on all too narrow tracks with insufficient run off areas, it creates a difficult environment for everyone to do what they came for without creating friction.

I would never condone punting another rider, and I hope to never be punted off track for holding my line when a faster rider comes through, but I accept the fact that if I choose to race I am taking this risk.  

Another factor in this discussion that has gone unmentioned is the  fact that many club racers seem to think the best way to finish well is to run a ridiculously defensive line.  Lines that make no sense other than to hopefully block faster riders from getting through before the checkered flag.  At a small,  twisty, narrow track, it's extremely difficult  to get past these types of riders without a certain amount of risk.  Where's the etiquette in that equation?

Again, without instant replay and some quantifiable factors,  it's extremely difficult to establish any kind of basis  for judgement.  It's almost like debating a shade of color.  It's largely in the eye of the beholder.

I suspect that if we had a hundred examples of close passes on tape, most everyone on this thread would agree on most all of the passes.  Probably there would be some debate over a small percentage of them, and that debate would divide people into the two groups I listed above.

And for the record, you'll always be welcome at  any NESBA event, as long as you follow the passing rules :-)
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Sklossmonster

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2007, 04:53:06 pm »
Tim,

You make a good point.  And it's sparked a thought regarding what makes a pass acceptable or not in my mind.  Before I try to articulate it, let me add that I did NOT cruise the pits to seek the rider out.  I happen to be walking back from the bathroom and saw him on his pit bike so I thought I'd mention it.  But you're right, as it was a race practive, and a totally acceptable pass in my opinion, I had no business questioning it in the first place.  As a track day guy, it did spook me, and I felt compelled to mention it.  I'm not sure why, other than it caught me off guard.

Would I have been pissed at him if I had crashed?  No.  He didn't crash me, he didn't hit me, and he didn't stand my bike up so much that I had no choice but to crash.  Although I can guarantee you there are "racers" who would have blamed him for everything if they'd crashed in that same situation.

Now about the acceptable pass thought ... here's my opinion, for whatever it's worth.

I think we can all agree it's the passer's job to get around safely.  Where it gets sticky is with what the pasees responsibility is.

I tend to think the guy in front has the right of way.  If you use the front wheel axle as a reference point, whoever's axle is in front has right of way.  If I stick my front wheel in and my axle is behind the rider I'm trying to pass, it's on me to get through safely, without contactin that other bike.  Conversely, if I'm the bike in front, and someone sticks a wheel in, I have three options. 

1.  I can stand it up a little and let them through.
2.  I can hold my line and see what happens, either they'll hit me and be in the wrong, or they'll back out for fear of contact.
3.  I can tighten my line and effectively shut the door on them.

This scenario assumes a certain amount of control on both riders parts.  If the passing rider is in way too hot (Pedrosa style) then it's an open and shut case, as it sounds like in Paul's earlier example.

Again, it's so subjective, and hard to establish at what point someone has the line when both bikes are effectively side by side at the entry/apex.

I can remember one time last season at Blackhawk T6a, when Curt and I were going at it hard style.  Everytime I took a sniff with my front wheel he slammed the door on me, forcing me to back out or get hit.  On the last lap I decided to be a bit more  bold and stick it in there. Well, it wasn't bold enough and I wasn't quite close enough to establish my bike's position alongside him before he slammed the door on me again at the apex.  We had hard contact, breaking my front fairing loose and very nearly crashing me out.

After the race, he said with a smile,"What the hell was that in T6?"  I said, "I tried to stick it in there but you just slammed the door on me."  He laughed  and said, "If you want it you're going to have come get it. I'm not going to just give it to you."

In that case, I wasn't close enough to force my bike alongside him and be axle to axle at the apex.   If I had, he most likely would've stood it up just enough to get through the corner, and then tried the same move on me into Turn 7.

Hard racing for sure, and two amateur trying to learn how to make a close pass on the final lap of what was for us a pretty important race.

In retrospect, I was clearly in the wrong as I didn't get the bike where it needed to be to establish my line over his.  He maintained position and there was contact due to the fact I put my nose where it couldn't stay.

Anyway, my point is that if I were going to say what's acceptable and what's not, that one was not ....  because I didn't get inside fast enough to force him to yield.  He held the line, I got my nose chopped off, and I was lucky not to be hurt or crash us both.  Was I out of control?  No. Was I wrong to stick my nose in there?  I don't think so, but I wasn't planning on there being any contact.  Was he wrong to chop my nose off?  Absolutely not, we were racing.

So not that it really matters, but to me the bike in front always has right of way.  If the passer can stick his center alongside the bike he's trying to pass, then it's on the bike being passed to either stand up and let him through, or close the door and let him suffer the consequences.



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tstruyk

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2007, 05:28:04 pm »
I appreciate your time and detailed response.

I think you'll find that the "other" racers (not the AMA liscensed hard nosed etc) are the majority on the grid.  Maybe not at all tracks and maybe not in every series... but we are the ones filling the grids so the contingency money is there for the uber fast guys.

Yes there are a handful of AMA hopefuls in any round of MW/GP or other series.

when your thoughts are expressed in a magazine people will take what they will from it.  It came off odd to some (self included) and some of the comments/responses from your "camp" (condoned by you or not) didnt help your cause and more than likely generated more "flak" than necessary.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 05:36:28 pm by tstruyk »
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JBraun

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Re: Why do we race?
« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2007, 05:54:51 pm »
"Where did you find this horse alive?" -Jeff Kufalk

This is not a knock on anyone's ability or chosen class, but racing mid-pack in amateur lightweight is barely even the same sport as running with the lead pack of an expert middleweight field.

It's actually one of the nice things about club racing, you have a choice. You can run in the middle of the pack, enjoy the competition and comraderie, and do it safely. Or, you can light your hair on fire and bang bars with Hall and Feuer at the front of the MW/HW/UL classes.

I was blown away in my first expert races by how aggresive the passing is. If you want to get through, you'd better do it with authority. Those guys will not hesitate to slam the door on you, stand you up, or turn across your front wheel.
It's the way it is. You will not "politely" win expert unlimited GP. Unless you're stupid fast and you start on the front row and get away, you will most likely need to force your will at some point.



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