Re: Irac- I need to vent

[racer46]

Wait a minute racer, I've been staying out of it hoping the thread would go away

sorry, i'm not trying to cause a problem, i don't know if you made the first post or not, i never read it, i don't really care, this is just a discusion with me, dave and anyone else who wants to be a part of it.

[Super Dave]

Yes, a long time ago.  But the War of 1812 was against the British, not a civil war.

We could have remained in our isolationist attitude to the world during previous conflicts.  Yet, we sacrificed our sons and daughters in the name of helping in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam.  There no war on America soil.  Does that make the lives sacrificed less valuable?  Or does it reflect the respect that have for the world as Americans?  After all, Americans are from many places.   Native Americans are the only indigenous people of North America.

Do we count the September 11th occurances as the beginning of a war against the United States?  I think that most would agree.  It was a direct attack against civilians on United States soil.    

(And I'm enjoying our "converstation"...  Please, I am anxious to hear your replies.  Are you Arabic yourself?  Or at least I am curious from where you get some of your good thoughts on this topic....)

[unforgivenracing]

Yes, Treat it like Pearl Harbor D*%it >:(
But remember who dot us involved in the problem in the first place before we start pushing buttons. :-[Hey while we are at it, lets invade Canada.

[racer46]

We could have remained in our isolationist attitude to the world during previous conflicts.  Yet, we sacrificed our sons and daughters in the name of helping in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam.  There no war on America soil.  Does that make the lives sacrificed less valuable?  Or does it reflect the respect that have for the world as Americans?  After all, Americans are from many places.   Native Americans are the only indigenous people of North America.

yes they did sacrafice their lives and  every one of those lives are invalubale, noone deservers to be killed. but i believe they lost their life for nothing (korea and vietnam) because that area is not much better today, both korea and vietnam are in deep poverty, their children die every day from hunger. as for WWI and WWII those were worthwhile because if we stayed out then the world would have been much worse off today, the problem is that after the war what happened is where the problems grow.

Do we count the September 11th occurances as the beginning of a war against the United States?  I think that most would agree.  It was a direct attack against civilians on United States soil.

   

9/11 was an attack on civilians yes, but i don't think it should be seen a a war against americans, the radicals who are behind all this are most likely laughing their asses off at us because we are doing exactly what they want, they want us to come after iraq so they can hate us more, attack us more, afterall there mission is to destroy america. i can't tell you what really is best to do with the situation, i've been thinking forever about the best solution but i'll tell you that staying out of iraq is the safest thing to do.

(And I'm enjoying our "converstation"...  Please, I am anxious to hear your replies.  Are you Arabic yourself?  Or at least I am curious from where you get some of your good thoughts on this topic....)

yes i am arab, i'm a palestinian. i'll give you my history so us can understand my views better.

in 1947 my grandfather was at the mosque for the friday prayer, my grandmother was 6 months pregnant with my dad and had three other kids already. when he left the mosque outside there was a big truck already filled with men, he was forced by gunpoint to go onto the truck. once the truck was filled they were taken to the coast and shipped to berut, lebannon, my grand mother heard about this and was told the only was she would ever see her husband was to leave palestine and walk to jordan, were the men would be told to go, so with just the clothes on her back and three little kids she walked accross palestine into jordan. a few months past before she was reunited with my grandfather. they tried to come back into palestine but were not alowed to, all there belongings, house factory, was all gone (to this day a jewish family lives in their old house even though we have the deed to the house and the original house key). so they started their life over in jordan from nothing. my grandfather died of a heartattack when my dad was 12, so my grand mother told all of her kids education was the only way to live. with those words in mind my father got a full scholarship in the US at a respected university where he got his PhD. while in college his room mate turned out to be palestinain too. but his family was lucky enough to still be living in palestine, which had become israel. my dad's room mate heard that his father was sick and was close to diying so he went back home to see his dad one more time. but when he got there he was taken by israel soliders, put in jail for over 100 days. there he was tortured, taunted and beaten daily by the soilders, he was an american citizen at the time and still is. they said if you want to go see your dad you have to sign this paper, the paper was in hebrew, which he did not know, he was not allowed to see a layer either. so he signed it, but the paper said he had to stay for another 9 months in jail and be beaten. when he finally was let out his father was already dead. i know this is kinda off topic but that whole issue is what brings hate to the US. if you think this only happens to muslims your wrong, my dad has a friend who lives in bethlaham who is christian and lived in one of the oldest homes in the country, which was a peice of history. well one day last year the israeli army came in the middle of the night to his house, they said you have 5 minutes to get out, they got out, the army buldozed their house and left. this happens every day, last year sharon also ordered an american quaker school be buldouzed.

if you have and questions just ask.

[unforgivenracing]

 ???It's too late to stay out.  :'(And this region has a nasty history of not turning the other cheek.  They don't forget about nothing, and will get you back for stuff your grandkids will never remember. :P ???

[Super Dave]

Thank you for being up front.  

I know that Israel leads South Africa in its crimes against people.

Unfortunately, many of the stories get watered down, or just lost.  

And I really don't know what to do.  I feel as though so many have a right to the area.  It is so filled with a wide history and significance...

If it could be just a Free Zone or something...  I don't know.  I hear of the bulldozing of homes.  I understand it from the perspective that you are giving.  And I do sympathize a little with the idea of someone trying to protect themselves.  There doesn't seems to be the checks and balances available to protect either side.  It is a loss across the board.

[quote[9/11 was an attack on civilians yes, but i don't think it should be seen a a war against americans, the radicals who are behind all this are most likely laughing their asses off at us because we are doing exactly what they want, they want us to come after iraq so they can hate us more, attack us more, afterall there mission is to destroy america. i can't tell you what really is best to do with the situation, i've been thinking forever about the best solution but i'll tell you that staying out of iraq is the safest thing to do.[/quote]

I worry that it will escalate.  I'm sure everyone does.

What is the aim of it all?  Islam was so rich with knowledge at one time.  A leader.  Now there seems to be a sway by some toward trying to force a particular will of Islam on the world.  One that I, and I'm sure some Moslems, see as extremely othodox.  Indeed, a holy war...

As for Iraq...  I suppose that it does fit into someone's plan.  Even, it seems, that bin Laden has vocalized his contempt for Saddam.  It would be in everyone's best interest if someone could just get him to go away, willingly or otherwise.  Perhaps it would serve to defuse the situation a little bit.

[Super Dave]

And, I didn't say it in the previous post...

You have my condolences for the losses that your family has received at the hands of those individuals.  I'm sure they are not representative of all Hebrew's or Israeli's, but justice should be done...  I, as you, do not expect it to come soon.

[racer46]

And, I didn't say it in the previous post...

You have my condolences for the losses that your family has received at the hands of those individuals.  I'm sure they are not representative of all Hebrew's or Israeli's, but justice should be done...  I, as you, do not expect it to come soon.

yes, that's absoulutly true, it is not the people who are to blame, it's the israeli government. my grandfather worked every day with jews and never had problems. governments fuck the whole world.

by the way.....it's nice to finaly talk to someone who can look at the whole story and understand.

[Super Dave]

Thank you.  Good to have your input too.

I'll add two things.  

I think Ronald Reagan said it best, and I think I quoted him last month, "Government is not the solution to our problems;  government is the problem."

On the flip side, there are individuals that breed such terrible thoughts, ideas, and actions.  And they get people to think the same way.  Ultimately, those people make a choice.  Whether it is to blow themselves up, torture someone, fly a plane into a building, and an on going list of things...  And I always thought it came down to education somewhere;  placing that bad though in someone's mind.  And the back and forth just continues to reinforce what happens.  

Has Yassir Arrafat lost control?  And is he relevant anymore?  At times, it just seems as though no one is listening to him even when he is promoting something good.  (Are we going back to that respect thing again....)

[Baltobuell]

 The common theme to the whole mid-east is that their armys act like barbariens. Why is that? How can a Captain order a rape? Or a suicide attack? Or for a soldier to beat an old woman? I guess it's a power thing I don't understand, but it certainly sheds an ugly light on the "culture"
 Racer, Your Grandfather had a very difficult life, but, on a positive note, the Israeli's did you a favor, if they hadn't forced him out, you'd be right in the middle of it, socially obligated to strap on a bomb. Things work out for the best.

[Super Dave]

Look at it this way.  For all the individuals that do sacrifice themselves, there are many, many, many more that would never think about such a thing.  However, the do feel powerless agains the Israeli's.

Maybe I can put this in some context...

British soldiers would move into colonist's homes, forcing those people out.  It was a British soldiers right to do that.  In our Constitution, for the US military to do that is strictly forbidden.  There are rights that are afforded to "land owner".  Manifest Destiny is a whole other topic, so we won't go there.

But look at the people living in what is now Israel that are not Israeli's.  They might have had a home in their family for generations, or less, but regardless they are pushed out, bulldozed over, etc.  Put yourself in their shoes.  At what point do those people have rights or not?

As for their militarys (SP...my brain just is not functioning...), training, education.  They might be fierce, but to maintain an even keel all the time under the extreme circumstances all the time...  Even highly trained soldiers can break and fall to the lowest common denomenator.

[Baltobuell]

 I am clearly a spoiled American. In even trying to envision a situation where I would be forced to live in poverty and fear, or fight to the death, I think of Eddie Murphy on Africa, "don't send food, send U-hauls, food doesn't grow in the desert and if they live there they will always need more food". A mass of refugees is difficult to deal with, but why are generations going on this way? Heck, I'm fed up with taxes, which is basicly a just a nusiance, and am fantasizing retirement in South America.
  Oh, and nobody would guess, with the Peace Corp. Hey, without dreams we ain't got nuthin.