Riding Skills Questions

[Super Dave]

Man upstairs will help if you ask.  Agreed, but we don't always like the answers.

A blind person is probably not well suited for racing, as an example.  They can't learn a skill such as sight.

Similarly, because of problems with my brain  and eyes, I do not and will never have depth perceptions.  I can't learn it, and I can't even modify my body to change that.  Maybe He's trying to tell me something?  LOL!

I guess, based on a lot of my experiences, I see many different abilities.  Certain things are not keys to other opportunities.  Even Keith Code talks about how someone having all the determination and desire in the world to be world champion might not be world champion because of a list of issues.  It can help, certainly, but all the other building blocks need to be there. 

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

Understandable Dave. But without that problem of yours you wouldn't have the drive that you have to overcome that. You might have learned other ways to go fast.
So the question is. Do you need depth perception as much as you think you do? I guess not. Your going pretty quick!
Here is my dilema: In case you people don't know, I am basically close to being deaf. I have had poor hearing my whole life and I always will. With ear plugs in I can't hear anyone talk period even if their next to screaming in my helment.
When a rider is right on my tail I can't hear that to know where he might be gaining on me.
But one advantage to that problem is that I don't get distracted as easily as others on the track. I able to focus more and just use my mind.
They say since you lack in one area of senses the others pick up for it.
I know that is true!

[Jeff]

So Dave has no depth perception & Jason's deaf.  I was wondering why I had to bang the keys so hard when I typed to get my message across!

In all seriousness, from my perspective, we are just exhibiting that people are very different, but in a couple of LARGE basic groups.  (from what I read here, it seems that) Jason and I are a LOT alike in OUR abilities to use positive energy through thought, people, surroundings to benefit us in whatever we do.  While there are others who need to be given something more tangible to have that same 'reality'...

[weggieman]

I'll take a rider with natural ability over determination any day. I know they will succeed on ability alone and then excel with determination. The path to the front will be much shorter and the drive will keep them there.

I've seen the natural riders go to the front right away. The ones with determination and drive went further up the ladder into pros and succeeded there. So, it's a combination of talent and drive that makes the really good ones.

Of course good equipment and a truck full of money also help. Without those last two you are'nt going real far now days.

[Eddie200]

Natural talent?

Is this why Billy Casper did so well, because he isn't built like most racers I've seen?   ::)

[Court Jester]

I've gotten slower over the past few years. My first track full track day I was hanging with the experts. After my very first wreck and then a surgery not too long ago, I seem to have backed off and lost what I once had.
My biggest problem more than anything else seems to be breaking. I always break too soon. And I'm 100% off the breaks by the time I turn in. for some reason I can't seem to trail break. On the street, not so much of a problem. On the track, I just can't seem to do it. I turn laps fast enough for me to easily finish in the middle of the pack but want to go faster (of course) and expect to be closer to the front. 

A typical turn for me...
I come down the straight, sit up, front break hard as I start to get off the side of the bike, I'm to the point now that the rear tire will hover under breaking and slip a little from side to side (awesome feeling), throw the bike into the turn and hold even throttle till the apex, then back on the gas as much as I can.
So my big question; what's the "real" use of trail breaking and will it make me faster to force myself to do it? And doesn't the front break make it harder to turn in???  and are there other little things to do to set up as you come to a turn to help get into it better/faster????

[catman]

CMON  some of the better racers  fess up this is good- i feel same about breaking to early-i need to see brake markers but focus on where i am in relation to actual turn.john

[Court Jester]

damn guys. i didn't mean to scare everybody off.

[Jeff]

So my big question; what's the "real" use of trail breaking and will it make me faster to force myself to do it? And doesn't the front break make it harder to turn in???  and are there other little things to do to set up as you come to a turn to help get into it better/faster????

People learn very differently, so some of my comments may not be applicable to you, or work in your necessary scenario.

First off, being on the brakes does not make it harder to turn in.  In fact it makes it easier to turn in.  Braking is really necessary in turning because it gets the geometry of the bike all goofy which promotes instability, resulting in a bike that no longer has a 100% desire to go straight.  Hard on the brakes, the front compresses, the rear jacks, the wheel base shortens.  The bike now WANTS to turn.

Will trail braking make you faster?  Big debate.  There are 2 schools of thought here.  1 says YES, 1 says NO.  For me, trail braking was something I would use if I had to significantly change my normal braking pattern (i.e., while passing).  The problem that most people have with trail braking are that they grossly over brake and it kills their drive out of a corner, or they end up getting ass-packed in the middle of a corner.  Or, worse yet, the front end loses traction and they fall down.

Can you brake straight up & down and still be as fast?  Absolutely...  

It has everything to do with corner speed and drive.  

If you REALLY want to find out what you can do in a corner, go to a few Keith Code California Superbike Schools and you'll see.  You will spend days riding in 1-2 gears (usually 3rd or 4th) while using NO BRAKES...  With that technique, you have a great deal of time to process a corner as it comes to you, and you go through it many times, much faster than you would go through it while using brakes.

Brakes are a huge crutch which are severely abused by many riders.  They barrel down a straight with their nuts on fire, get freaked out because they see a corner, over brake and lose everything their 180 hp 1000 cc bike "gained" them on that straight.

Pick up Keith Code's Twist of the wrist II and read it...

[paco]

Great information here! Thanks for the insight.

[Court Jester]

thank you very much.
i have the book and read it a few times. i need to do the school though. some kind of school anyway

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

First off, being on the brakes does not make it harder to turn in.  In fact it makes it easier to turn in.  Braking is really necessary in turning because it gets the geometry of the bike all goofy which promotes instability, resulting in a bike that no longer has a 100% desire to go straight.  Hard on the brakes, the front compresses, the rear jacks, the wheel base shortens.  The bike now WANTS to turn.

Jeff I have to beg the differ on your braking theory. Being on the brakes does make it harder to turn it. Try this once. Take a bike while slightly leaned over going about say 50mph or whatever speed you want to try this at and while holding a constant lean angle apply the front brakes and watch what happens. The bike will go wide because it is forced to stand up. The motion of the front tire spinning is being slowed so that energy gets converted somewhere else. It goes up the forks into the steering head bearings. Which makes the weight behind the steering head from the engine/frame/rider/etc push the neck of the frame towards the outside of the turn. That also causes countersteering back in the other direction which literally makes the bike want to run right off the track until you let the brakes of so the bike can steer back in.
Trail braking is only used to make minor speed adjustments like while outbraking another rider into a turn since you are not going as fast as you could go anyways. It isn't supposed to be used all the way to the apex of a turn.
When a motorcycle is taken to the limit of traction & speed into a turn the rider is hard on the front brakes. Very hard as to where the rear of the bike is skating along the asphalt. The rider puts his weight already to the inside of the bike prior to braking so that when the bike becomes light in the rear the tire will swing out towards the outside of the turn setting you up for a point & shoot into the turn.
The rider is still hard on the front brakes now. When turn in point is reached you let the front brakes off not slowly or super fast either. Just medium pace as the rear tire will now come inline with the front as the whole bike drops into the corner.
It feels strange the first times you do it as you feel like you will fall off the bike. But after time you will finesse it and the bike just falls into the corner as it becomes a normal feeling.
All this takes a LONG time to perfect. It is best to start practicing on a dirt bike or motard bike to get that feeling. I ride off of feeling not principal. During practice I use my understanding to try to take a turn better. But come race time I take what I know & ride off of feeling.

You have to practice on a dirt bike with no front brake once. When you have no front brake you have to just know when to let off into the turn and slow down by scrubbing off speed. If you let off too late you just run wide a little and next time you let off slightly earlier till you get it right.
When your riding a dirtbike you will feel as the rear tire is stepping out while sliding into the turn, when the tires stop sliding & start hooking again the steering will snap into the corner and the bike will fall into the corner so nicely waiting for you to get on the gas. The steering will hook in just before the apex and you get on the throttle right slightly before the apex.

When you brake the front end compresses and the geometry changes for sure. But the braking power of slowing down pushes the bike wide while you lean the bike in until you let the brakes off then the bike falls into the turn. 
Weight placement also makes a huge deal on getting the bike turned in and through the turn.
Taking turns like this only works on sharp turns. Your not going to be able to do this like into the carosel at Road America.
There is a process that my mind goes through will taking are turn just anyone elses. I am thinking about breaking down what actually goes through my mind going into a turn.
Here is a pic of a nice slide into turn 5 @ Road America.