Riding Skills Questions

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

What major area(s) are you working at in racing?
Where are the most amount of difficulty in achieving better lap times on the track for you? Braking, Exits, Cornering Speed, Passing, Starts, Phyical strength, endurance,Etc.?
Like what areas do you feel you need to work on. Or do you even know?

Just wondering what other peoples problems are.

I believe motorcycle racing is a fine art that needs to be understood through practice of trail & error. The more we understand about motorcycles & our minds the faster we can go. So if we all pool up some info about what we are working on or things that are hard to overcome we will be able to better understand how to go faster as result. You must know what is going on underneath you and what your options are on a motorcycle so that you can make it do what you want it to do.
Don't be afraid to ask questions about how stuff works on this thread. I would like to be able to answer many questions about racing & riding on here. I'm not saying I have all the answers but I would like to learn more everyday.
Lets raise the bar in racing CCS by talking these topics with each other.
What do you think Jeff?
What better way to get through the winter but by studying for next season?
Jason Farrell

[Super Dave]

Well, when I started, that was the presentation...racing was the practice of trial and error.  Endurance racing was sold to us as the way to that "experience".  I liked endurance racing.  But the trial and error?  Well, what can you say...if it's ground that has been covered before, why should I feel so unique and selfish in my personal opportunities that I will actually learn through this trial and error? 

The cost, even at $30 for the first race, $20 for the second and $10 for each after with $180 tires was more expensive than I could afford so quickly.

My trial and error experience got me through to my first win, period, in 1990.  I started racing in 1987, turned expert in 1989, and did my first AMA event that year.  I won my first race as an expert at the old Gateway in A Superbike Expert.  I was second overall, with the overall win going to Tray Batey winning A Production Expert.  I was on a 750, he was on an 1100, but it didn't matter, he just plain won the race. 

My real learning came in 1991 when I was hooked to a "B Team" program that had an "A Team" with Dale Quarterley.  Just hanging with Dale and his guy Daytona Mike allowed me to recognize that volume was not necessarily relevant to success in the sport.  Knowledge was more important than I thought.  Dale was a guy that I could watch and see things that I wasn't doing.  And I could ask him questions that he could give me specific answers to, in addition to leading me toward the next answers and the next questions. 

Following that, it was racing vintage bikes and working with different students that allowed me to understand chassis more and allowe me to see how different people work.  There's a lot to be said for the different kinds of people there are.  Some are quick reacted, some aren't so much.  Each has value, and each has problems.  I can see how those things do and don't work with me also. 

My drive to "necessarily" win isn't there like I had years ago, but I know more now.  I don't have to be that guy anymore.  I did that.  I just love racing, and then working to develop riders if they have that desire to do something.

[catman]

This could be another good topic - i would like to classify turns or sections by the amount of time that can be gained in them- sort of just an ABC way to simply categorize them- i think that areas of great speed change qualify  as an A area- probably high speed sections fit there too .So i think those areas are where i will spend my little partime racer tracktime,once the bike is setup by those much more capable than me-(at 51 and just starting on track,i like to take a WMD to a fistfight! (just a saying o mine)- ::)I'll be watchin this thread all winter i hope! Thanks Jas,,Dave ---John in Victory Gardens NJ

[Jeff]

The big problem, which I've said before, is that few people actually have the DETERMINATION to win a race...

Here's the last article I wrote on the topic:

Determination or Desire?

Many racers starting out (and some who have been doing it for quite a long time) wonder what it takes to be successful.  To win.  To be that guy on top of the box every race, every weekend.  To this, I say it's a pure matter of personal choice.  Do you have Determination for racing, or is it a Desire instead?  This is a very basic question, but one which is very overlooked and largely ignored.  I bring this question to you, the prospective racer.


de-ter-mi-na-tion [di-tur-muh-ney-shuhn]

–noun

1. the act of coming to a decision or of fixing or settling a purpose. 
2. the decision or settlement arrived at or pronounced. 
3. the quality of being resolute; firmness of purpose. 
4. a fixed purpose or intention
5. fixed direction or tendency toward some object or end.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

de-sire [di-zahyuhr]

–verb (used with object)
1. to wish or long for; crave; want. 
2. to express a wish to obtain; ask for; request:

–noun
3. a longing or craving, as for something that brings satisfaction or enjoyment 
4. an expressed wish; request.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Competitive, successful racing plain and simply takes determination.  However, when you look at the level of determination necessary, you will find a determination beyond what most people can sustain for any length of time.

Determination as defined above by webster is, for all intents and purposes, actually MAKING SOMETHING HAPPEN. 

Desire on the other hand is much different.  It's a WANT, a WISH, a CRAVING.

Wanting something is absolutely different from MAKING IT HAPPEN.  When you hit the track and 'want' to run a 1:15, you'll find that it doesn't happen until you MAKE it happen.  Desire is you wanting that particular lap time; determination is you making that lap time a reality.

Racing has a large number of obstacles to overcome.  The racer who is determined and resolute in that determination, will overcome any obstacle in his or her way, and WILL succeed!  What kind of determination does it take?

The determination to live and breathe for winning that race. 
The determination to do whatever you have to in order to afford your needs.
The determination to train, improve, learn, and continue until you have the result you desire.
The determination to make the sacrafices you need to so that you can meet your goal. 
The determination to condition your body and mind into a machine capable of reaching your goals.

I see so many people with a half-assed desire to be competitive, yet they're pounding down a 6-pack of beer while shoveling chocolate cake into their mouth at the track.  They're the people who will spend thousands on building a motor, but won't exhibit the discipline necessary to condition themselves to be able to run a 30 minute race in 100 degree heat.  These are people who may do well from time to time, and probably have a great time doing it, but they lack the determiniation which the person standing on top of the box every weekend has.

Every personal victory I've had, whether it was winning a race, making a pass, beating a lap time, or saving a crash, I can look right back on and see that it was pure determination that brought me that result.  When you have that determination, events become TASKS, and have no function of pleasure, simply a task which must, no, WILL be completed.  When you enter the DESIRE mode, these racing events remain events and produce many different results such as pleasure, fear, pain, thrill.

Determined racing is not fun.  It's not comfortable.  It's not anything but achieving a goal, and at a later time, relishing in the satisfaction that you met that goal and conquered the obstacles of mind/body/finances/gravity/whatever.

So, you ask yourself if you are TRULY determined, and find out the answer is "no"; then what?  Should you give up racing?  NO! Not necessarily.  It all depends on your goal and what this means to you.  If you desire to race to go fast, and have fun, do just that!  There's nothing wrong with it.  I have run with hundreds if not thousands of people who are VERY happy with just being out on the track.  They have nothing to achieve or prove, they are simply there to have fun and fulfill their desire.  They also don't necessarily sit around mulling why they are not winning!  If you find yourself wondering why the hell you can't win a race, start considering whether it is more of a desire than a determination.

Can you flip from desire to determination and back?  Absolutely!  And you can do it 10 times a lap if that's what you choose!  Case in point, I was running a race weekend where a number of pro riders showed up.  My determination that day was broken as I knew they were much faster than I could be.  I desired to beat them, but I had no determination to do it because I felt the obstacle was too large.  Then all of a sudden it began to POUR rain.  My attitude flipped like a switch from a desire to beat these guys, to a determination that I would (not 'could', WOULD) win in the rain.  I knew I could do it, I had done it before.  I took to the track with a focus to win and nothing less.  So, did I win that race?  No.  Ultimately through a couple of bad choices in the race I came up 3rd in an extremely tight last lap of dicing.  However, before that rain set in, there was no way I would have believed I could have landed a 3rd with the riders who were there.

Another instance came when I was stuck at a 1:14.0 fastest lap for over a year at a certain track.  I came around that fateful day and read yet another 1:14.0 on my lap timer and I actually said to myself in my helmet "HELL NO!".  I put my head down and instantly ran 3 mid 1:13 laps.  It became a task to be completed, no longer something I simply "wanted".

If you think you have the determination it takes to win, you need to ask yourself the question of "will this benefit my racing?", every waking moment of the day.  Every time you pull into McDonald's, every time you piss away $6 at starbucks, every time you flop down on the couch with a pizza and a movie.  You need to think of what the guy who is beating you is doing at that very moment.  When your life revolves around winning, you will win.

So, the next time you contemplate where to invest in your racing, and why you're getting beat at the track, consider to yourself, "Do I have the determination to do this, or is this just something I want?".  If it's a determination, nothing will stand in your way.  If it's a desire, just kick back and enjoy your experience and have fun!

[weggieman]

I think this all hinges on your goals as a rider. To the majority of people at this level this is a hobby. Win or lose they're out for the fun and commaraderie of the weekend.

To the few who are young enough and have the desire to try for a factory ride someday your commentary is great but, that is a small percentage of the riders out there.

I started racing at the ripe old age of 32. I had no dreams of doing anything but playing around having fun. So, I partied at the tracks and had a ball. Never trained and still managed to run near the front most weekends. Won a few and yes won endurance races riding on two teams in the same event. Rode 4 out of 6 hours a couple times and was completely out of shape physically. Never had a problem on the track though. Rain, heat, whatever came I rode through it and finished fairly well.

Yes the desire to win was there but so was the desire to have fun.......

[steelcityracer]

Sorry Jeff, but I have to disagree with some of what you are saying.  Determination is a great quality, and can help a person to be the best that they can at whatever they are determined to do. 

With racing however, there are so many intangibles, that determination alone will often not be enough.  Luck, natural ability, natural body type,  vision, comfort at speed, and many other things that we dont have control over come into play.  I have known people who are extremely determined to accomplish their goals, but they still come up short.  The sheer odds of winning in some of the classes are pretty small.  There is one winner, out of grids that are sometimes as large as 50 or more riders.  Does this mean that there was only one determined racer out there.

Conversly, I have also seen racers who are able to drink a six pack, eat some cake, and still wake up and win a race.  Training and preperation definatly help, and I am a definate advocate of a strong fitness training regimin, but there will always be the Anthony Goberts and Scott Russels out there, that just have something inside of them that the rest of us can never have.

I also have to disagree with your assesment that determination equals no fun.  Nicky Hayden has to be considered one of the most determined mc racers in the world, yet he often seems to be having fun at the races.  I can remember the GP at Mugello this year, he finished third, yet he looked like he just had the time of his life.  When you are determined, and you make progress, and have some good battles, it is fun.  That is after all, why we do this.  Even the top riders in the world do this because it is fun.  Look at Rossi.  He almost always looks like he is enjoying himself at the track.  By your definition, the only determined rider in moto gp is Danni Pedrosa.

All in all, determination is definatly important, but far from the only ingredient in making a succesful mc racer.

[Super Dave]

+1

[Jeff]

And you're absolutely correct SteelCityRacer.  There are many intangibles which need to be factored in.

I guess I wrote that with a specific type of rider in mind.  The guy we all know, who walks around pissing and moaning that he can't win, and stuffs money into all the wrong places.  One with a bad frame of mind.  One who would do MUCH better if he/she simply had some determination to do such.

Rosno has no depth perception.  That didn't hold him back from becoming an accomplished racer.  It was something he simply had to overcome.

Yes, there is natural talent, etc.  Again, the post was not meant to be as 'all encompassing' as it came off.  It was just my brain oozing out through my fingers one day...

[Scotty Ryan]

I'm not going to say that I disagree with you Jason - but.... When I used to race Motocross/Supercross - I had no guidance so I thought that for me to learn on my own I had no choice but trial and error...... I spent a lot of time in the hospital - lots of time.... When I started roadracing I had people helping me - people that had been in my position before(from CCS and Wera Endurance to AMA Pro) - but because I was bull headed and stuck in my ways I wanted to do things my way... I didn't think I could learn doing things someone Else's way..... Well I ended up getting hurt quit a bit again - "just this time I wasn't intentionally landing from 20 - 30 foot in the air"..... So I decided to start listening to everyone around me (yes even Super Dave) and what I found was that I could infact learn without throwing the bike down the road...

Now to kinda put things into perspective - I can't say for sure - and I know everyone is different - but..... I feel that you need to be able to find the limit of whatever it is that you are trying to work on with your riding - weather it be braking,cornering,body position, starts or even timing.... I know that everyone is going to find that limit differently - I felt I had to push myself and the bike past the limit before I knew where that limit was...Some people can "FEEL" that limit easier then others - without going past that point...... As Dave has told me in the past "peoples reaction speed can vary greatly" - We even did an actual test that measured our reaction speed.... I think that somones ability to learn is somewhat related to this - but without understanding first of all "That" things are happening - and secondly "why" things happen - you won't progress - regardless of how well the can react to or feel what is going on.....

Now for what Jeff said - I have always kinda had the same outlook.... I have always felt that people can tell everyone else how much they want it - or even tell them selves that they want to win more then the next person...But unless you are willing to 100% dedicate your life to wanting it then either you  are (A) Kidding yourself and wasting a lot of money in the process - (B) Just doing it to have fun and enjoy yourself - Or (C) You are just naturally talented and don't have to work at it as hard as the next person... But look at Nicky Hayden for example - The kid has tons of talent - But I bet you anything thing he worked his ass off this season - just like he has every year to get to this point.... Then we have Rossi - do you think he has to work as hard as Hayden??? HMMM - makes you think....

I personally think about everything I do - or eat - or drink - "Is this going to benefit me in my racing or is this going to hurt me? " People always give me a hard time and tell me I'm to serious about racing - well they haven't devoted the last 10 years of their life to something that they want as bad as I do.... And it is funny - Because I think about this concept allot now when I meet new people - kinda put them into a category - weather they have a good hard work ethic/are passionate about something in their life - or weather they just go day to day - month to month - hobby to hobby - job to job - Just getting through life....  

Just some rambling.... 

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

+1 for Jeff. I was in kahoots when I read his post.
I agree with pretty much all of what he wrote. I understand what he is saying & meant to say.
I still belive determination wins over desire. Although you must have both.
I race for my own self satisfaction. I enjoy being able to prepare my machine & myself and ALWAYS know that I will be one of the fastest guys on the track period.
I am that guy who can take pretty much a stock bike and still go fast because I listen to Scott Russell say once that he blames no one but himself for his mistakes or speed on the track. Take it like a man and have NO excuses as to why you lost. You need to figure out how to go faster by better preparation or more practice of understanding.
To me people who are slow and never excel in what they do is because they gave up.


Nobody wants to hear excuses from anybody period. Like oh my tire pressure was off or my shock this or my motor that. Who cares? So instead of always having more excuses fix those problems so they don't happen again.
If you claim the pros or faster guys showed up and now I don't have a chance. That's BS.
Lets me ask something. Do you think I have been able to ride like I do through pure born with it talent?
No Way. I have taken more ass busters than most riders out there could ever imagine. But through determination I kept on learning HOW to go faster or handle my bike better.
Plain & simple everyone is born a winner. If your 6' tall and normally weigh 180-200lbs sure it might be harder to go faster than a 140lb guy. But I recall of Fritz Kling I believe was his name of still being able to win tons or races and he was that size.

Sure I am know as a guy who can go fast on just about any kind of bike. I'm sure if I ate a box a donuts and drank soda all day prior to a race I could still go just as fast. But if I did it everyday I would definately slow down because I would become and out of same fat ass.
I excersize everyday. I train on scooters several times per week. I read motorcycle dynamics books weekly, work on bike everyday, and ride everyday. I made my life that way so it benifits my racing. Starting at 3 riding motorcycles & racing at 4 yrs old helped me with that learning curve for sure. But I wasn't born a fast motorcycle rider. Neither was Dale Earnhart Jr. born a fast race car driver but though practice and being around racers everyday of his life it helped. His family made it that way for him. So did Earl Hayden with the boys.
See Earl understands that. Thats way his boys are doing as well as they are. Earls Lane is where they practice just about everyday of their lives.

Natural ability is just a BS term. Practice & knowledge get you ability "Natural Ability".
I could compare myself. If I was never born with the opportunity to ride I wouldn't be doing this. I would be doing something else.
Here is something about life. Attitude. Attitude about the way you look at life will help you in all areas of your life. I listen to motivational CD's a regular basis and it helps me. I started that because Colin Edwards talk about it in the early 90's & how it helped his mental attitude. It helps mine for sure.
I measure my success by how much stuff I had to give up to get there. Like partying, street riding with the other guys, nice toys, spending time time with family at social gatherings hanging out with my girlfriend. I have been labeled as being too into racing. It's all I do by my exgirlfriends. I have aways wondered if I am too into it or if I just haven't found the right girl.
My findings is that I do what I do well because I always put my fullest effort to something.
If I have a kid or get married it will slow me down a little bit because I won't be able to put the time & energy behind my efforts of racing like I did. Since my time would be directed at my family now & I would like to do that well too. You couldn't take away my knowledge of racing or riding but a competitor might have an edge on me because he rides all the time & I would get a little rusty.
Kind of like most riders in CCS racing.
Kids go fast because they have no worries on their minds. No bills, wives, kids, bosses to worry about. The average guy has way more cluttered in his mind. More responsibilites to take care of. Jeez he is taking care of the kid that can kick his ass!.
Thats why most older guys like to go racing since it is a way to get away from their responsibilites in life and forget about life for awhile.

It's next to impossible to excel in all areas of your life. Life is about an equal balance. You only have so much time & money.
So if your having a hard time beating a guy who has 10 millions dollars in the bank & doesn't work, all he does is ride. Your chances are slimmer to beat him but it's not impossible. You going to have to hope he parties too much and loses his balance in life and get out of shape or he crashes & injures himself and doesn't make the money race. Sad to say it like that but it's the truth.

Luck plays a huge roll in racing too. But your chances are better when you prepare and make sure your shit is tight and no mistakes have been made.  I have been unfortunate many times but throught determination I was able to continue on. I have had engines problems at every AMA National pretty much in the last 3 years. But I made every main event. Not many racers could pull their engines and replace transmission parts in less than 1 hr & 15min and still make the race like I have. Most give up and go home. I managed that with 5 guys who never pulled an engine before. But my team of guys listened as I told them what to do to make it happen and we pulled it off. Anything is possible you just have to believe you can do it! Self faith!
Sometimes in life you just need to have that $&ck it attitude and go for it. You might fail but how will you ever get anywear if you don't try!
You might crash but you must first crash to really know your limits. Through many crashes & close calls you learn the limits. As you get more expirenced you learn where that fine line is and how to keep it right there without crashing.

Like my Dad always told me: "HOW BAD DO YOU WANT IT?" For some I guess it's not bad enough!
Now that my friends is fun for me. The challenge to go faster & understand more everytime I take to the track whether I'm riding a race bike, dirt bike or a spree!  

ROCK ON!  
Jason Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsports
"I believe it all inside your head"
The song that describes me is by Saliva called Survival of the Sickest & Click, Click, Boom  
Check out my my space page!  http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=95061292

[Super Dave]

Luck in racing?  Yes.

Fritz Kling, yes.  Dale Quarterley too.  Dan Chivington, Scott Gray, and Rob McElna.  All big guys.  Not guys on 250's though.

Natural ability.  Some people to have natural talents that do translate into this sport.  It's hard to explain the specifics, but I've learned to recognize it as quickly as I can because those riders need to be pointed differently than the rest of us more mortal riders.  Doesn't necessarily mean much all the time, but it can be relevant.

[J Farrell / Speed Tech Motorsp]

That whole natural ability thing I still call a thing that is related to attitude. People might have poor attitudes in life not by choice but because of the enviroment they were born in. So it affects there mental outlook on life in a negative way. Slows down the thinking process. But what I believe is everyone can work on developing better attitudes about it and when they change the way they look at life they understand things much easier.
So I believe a person who catches on in racing quicker will also catch on to other things in life quicker also.
In that aspect only.
There are many differernt variables to this and it is hard to explain. But never count out anyone's ability to learn a skill. Once they learn that skill other things in that area of life only get easier and easier to learn. Because everything in life has some sort of buddy thats like it. So it only gets easier and easier.
So Moms & Dads, bring up your kids well. Always tell them they can acheive whatever they want. Tell them they can fly to the moon if they want. Because it is possible.
I believe I can do whatever I want in life. I understand that some of the choices I have made won't let me be able to carry on certain lifestyles anymore. Like be the President or Possilby fly to the moon. As you get older & older your chances get slimmer & slimmer with the more responsiblities you put on yourself.
Believe in the man upstairs. He will take you farther than you could ever imagine!