LP Sport Rider Day using OUR practice ???!!!

[r1owner]

As for gate fees, they (the tracks, CCS, etc..) are going to get their $$ one way or the other.  Fine lower the gate fees or make then free, they will only increase the cost of each race.  The way the fees are structured now enourages racers to enter multiple events for best bang for the buck, albeit at a higher threshold to just get into the game.

Maybe you think CCS makes some outrageous profit?  Prove it to me and I'll help you open another race org.  Reality is they don't make much $$ at all.

I'm all for CCS making money.  If they didn't we wouldn't have any place else to race.

Is it really necessary to charge every rider the gate fee?  It seems so nebulous to me.  I mean we are already paying to come there to race, why should we have to pay to get in to the track!  It just doesn't make since, but since we all pay it, it isn't likely to change.

I just think the fee is a little high for people to come watch some schelprocks like me circulate a track.  I mean 25 bucks for 2 days  ::)  Someone has to be saying "Man, for 32 bucks, I can watch a double weekend at Mid-Ohio with 'real' racers"  That's only 7 bucks more to watch some serious factory iron.  So, what is it worth to the average joe to come watch us go around Gateway.

I see a lot more "fans" at the test and tune nights they have at the dragstrip on a Wednesday night than I see at the road course on a Saturday.  Sad really.

[Bernie]

What's next .... scooters?  

Ack!  They keep trying to do that at Summit.  It is a sad, sad spectacle :(

[cr133r]

If they need to make more money, I'd like to see them do the double headers more often so I can race my 'normal' classes on both Sat and Sun.  I think a lot of people would like this idea...

Let the endurance(30 min) races run on Sat along with the 'regular schedule' then run the other groups not considered 'regular schedule' one Sun with the 'regular schedule'...

Its tough for me to justify a 4-500 dollar trip to race just one day.  But I wouldn't mind spending an extra 100 to get more out of the weekend.

The SW/Pacific region has a problem mostly because the tracks are SO FAR away.  If you did the full season, even living in the optimal location, you still travel way too far.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

SO I am pretty confused on what you are worried about.
  

Eric, I hate to do this to you, because we're friends.  Time and time again, it's been proven that Keven's solution to controversy is to ignore it.  You've chosen to stick your neck out on this issue, so I have to call you on it.  I have a few questions reguarding CCS and their practice policy.  Since you've chosen to comment on this thread, perhaps you can explain these things to me.

I personally feel that we do not get enough practice time, and that the track is way too crowded during practice.  I am definetly not alone in this feeling, as almost everyone I've ever talked to feels the same way.  Lumping together every bike in a displacement catagory for practice can result in massive traffic jams.  In this environment, I can't imagine what would happen if CCS decided to use the transponders to grid us by practice times.  The best racers in the club, running at lap record pace on an overfilled track?  How many helecoptors can you call before lunch?

I raced lightweight last year, but began playing with a middleweight bike as well.  The first time I rode both in the same weekend, I naturally went out to practice in both the lightweight and middleweight sessions.  Two different bikes both need to be sorted, right?  WRONG!!  I was immediately informed by the race director that I had committed an infraction of the rules.  I was told that I was only entitled to go out once each round of practice, even if I had entered two machines of different displacement class.  The director said that "It wouldn't be fair to the guys who only run one motorcycle if I got twice as much practice."  When I asked to be shown the section of the rulebook that stated this rule, I was told that If I wanted to be a $mart@ss, then I'd be thrown out!  Very nice!  Ironically, I've seen other competitors practice the same bike in both lightweight and middleweight, because they were "Racing Up" to the middleweight class with their lightweight bike.  I guess it just depends on whether or not you get caught.  It's true that letting a rider practice each of his bikes would only add to practice track congestion, but it that an issue with greedy riders wanting too much track time, or a general flaw in the way CCS organizes their schedule?

In any other series that I've ever been to, each entry entitles the pilot to practice for that group.  Show up to a car event with a Formula Ford and a Camaro, and you'll get practice time in both.  The AMA and WERA guys get to practice in each class that they enter.  Imagine telling a Bostrom or DuHamel that "you've already been out on your 600, so there'll be no Superbike practice for you, buddy!"  In CCS, if a guy has several bikes, he's supposed to just guess at gearing and jetting when he arrives at a new track for the first time?  He should hope that each bike is running well enough to be safely raced without practicing on each one?  Any official comment on the saftey aspect of that policy?

What it all boils down to is that we don't get enough time to practice.  If a rider intends to be remotely competitive at a new track, he'd better show up for the Friday track day.  There's no way he'll even get to learn the track in the pitiful amount of time alloted to practice by the CCS.  If CCS has figured out how to increase the amount of available practice time, then it should be given to the racers, not track day riders.  The thought that we should have to pay extra to practice in a track day session held during OUR race weekend appalls me.  There is no way for an intelligent person to see the addition of these track day sessions as anything but an attempt by CCS to squeeze more money out of the available time in a weekend.  To say that racers won't lose any track time is a joke.  The only time the track has ever gone cold during a race weekend was when the corner workers were having lunch.  If you add sessions, the time has to come from somewhere.  There is only so much daylight, or so many hours in a track's sound restriction policy.  More sessions can only mean shorter sessions.  Please, explain the error of my thought process here!

Sorry Eric.  I don't mean this as a personal attack.  The riders have complained about this situation for years, and things seem to be getting worse instead of better.  You seem to be the only official with enough balls to even discuss it in a public forum.  I guess that puts you in the hot seat.

[Super Dave]

Hmm...

All good thoughts.

Yes, too many classes.  Indeed, CCS racing is sportsman racing, which means that it is a competitor event, not really a spectator event.  That means that we, the riders, families, and crew, bear the brunt of the expense.  Face it, who here has a program worthy of a show?  Yes, some are doing a better job at it...

Drag racing?  Hey, just about anyone can do that from a stop light.  Road racing just doesn't attract everyone.  How many times have you gotten across what you do to someone and they think you're crazy?  Quite often, I would think.  And a road racing enthusiaist moves around the track.  At a drag race, you can sit in the stands and drink while watching the whole track.  

Cost of the track?  Those numbers sound about right to me.  CCS's advantage is that they pay their insurance in one lump sum for their events world wide...  So, their insurance has additional things and costs probably 66% less than what I pay.  But I don't even want to think about what the total bulk payment is.  Probably the GNP of some contries.

I know that you can rent the track, if you have a racing license or you know the Irwins, for a reasonable cost.  You don't have any insurance too.  But you don't get an ambulance or staff, etc.  You're on your own.

Back to classes...   More classes, more opportunities for entries.  I mean, it takes so much money to pay for the track and all the expenses.  If you can build a new class, you can have more entries.  I think that some of those new classes are designed to allow some SuperMotard bikes in.  Not much happening there yet.  Might never, but who knows.  Seems like GT Lights was small, and the Lightweight classes were looking pretty bare until the SV's became so popular.

I guess the problem might be that if we have fewer classes, the entry fees might have to go up to offset the expense.

I for one think that "superbike" classes are redundant.  Eliminate them and have them run in "grand prix".  That would open up nearly an hour on Sunday.

Practice?  Yeah, this is a real safety issue.  What gives?  Again, this is sportsman racing, so we should not feel completely obligated to have to come to a practice day, should we?  There should be a reasonable expectation of an opportunity to go through machine and rider checks during a race day.

I see that LCR will now have three practice sessions on Saturday rather than two, in addition to the mock race.  Is it time to enter that for Saturday practice?

This is sportsman racing, but the technology in our production racing is moving more toward full on racing hardware.  Example:  DOT tires NEED tire warmers.  Things were different years ago with bias ply tires, and things were different with the radials of just a few years ago.  In 1999, when I returned to regular racing with CCS after racing for others, I found that the DOT technology was pretty much like a racing slick...it NEEDED heat.

As for not allowing a rider to ride his two bikes?  I think that's BS!  That's a safety issue to me.  Someone had the analogy about an AMA race, but lets make it a better example...  When Barney raced the Hooter's bikes and the Buell, I'm sure they didn't make him choose one or the other because of an unfair advantage...  I thought having to pay the extra tire and fuel bill would be enough of a disadvantage, not to mention the work, that the extra time on the track (how much time are we talking here, fifteen minutes?) would be inconsequential...

[kbaker]

 ;Dhelloeveryone
I know this is not the cure but it it the best I could do. I am hosting a friday track day for all CCS racers at the streets of willow on 31 jan. Cost is $125.00 and if all goes well (with both my side and yours) I will host days before the next races in May and Nov.
I know this does not adress the problem directly and it only covers 1 track but... If I am willing to do this other shop owners near a raceway might too.
If interested please contact: Kelly Baker's Performance Unlimited (661)256-7246

[Super Dave]

Seems to me they are trying to turn amateur racing into a high-profit businss. That's something it was never meant to be and neveer will be, especially in those regions. If it is the tracks that are raising the prices, why has the cost of independent track days actually gone DOWN in the last year or so?

Also, isn't it ironic that the Pacific and Southwest events have been dubbed "financial disasters for the past two years" when that's the same time Clear Channel took over CCS?

I think SFX Motorsports saw CCS racing as an opportunity.  CCS was a consistant opportunity to have a hold in motorcycle road racing across the nation.  I mean, honestly, there is no other organization that has so many events, and they are across the nation.  AFM, well, you're got a couple of tracks.  Same with WSMC, OMRRA, WMRRA, MRA, CRA, we can go on....    

Clear Channel Entertainment has a tendancy to buy companies to fill their need of fulfilling a niche in the market.  SFX was what they wanted.  Are they making big bucks?  No, but there is some return on their investment.

As for the Pacific regions being a disaster... Sounds like things are improving.  But as that business saying goes, "I loose money on every sale I make;  I just make up for it in volume!"  Hopefully, things will turn around.  You've got to crawl before you walk or run.  

Track days?  My costs have escalated unbelieveably, but my prices have remained reasonably consistent because I've been able to attract more customers.  I don't have gate fees either.  I don't want to have to pay someone to collect those fees all day at the gate...

[duc995@aol.com]

To Chris O. :  You are right on the money and I truly appreciate your additional perspective on this issue!  I started this thread...thought maybe I had seen something that no one else could see...and now am convinced that others are seeing the reality of the situation as well.  Are you going to be at Willow this weekend?  I know there is going to be some hot and heavy "discussions" to attend :o  Thanks again for seeing the light and speaking your mind!

[sdiver68]

Scott -

I completely agree with you on fees for spectators or volunteer pit crew.  That was a differnet thread posted not too long ago.  I think they are charged way too much, and defeintely cuts the number of people who attend, or days they attend.

S_D-

Yeah, good point, certain Superbike and GP classes are pretty redundant.  When you throw in Sportbike, which is kinda MW Superbike or GP in practice if not in theory, that adds another.

[Litespeed]

To Chris O. :  You are right on the money and I truly appreciate your additional perspective on this issue!  I started this thread...thought maybe I had seen something that no one else could see...and now am convinced that others are seeing the reality of the situation as well.  Are you going to be at Willow this weekend?  I know there is going to be some hot and heavy "discussions" to attend :o  Thanks again for seeing the light and speaking your mind!

Does this mean you are going to be making a scene?  And if so can you make sure I am there to witness it :).

[TiffineyIngram]

How about this-

Let's all think positively about this weekend and perhaps we'll see that everything's going to work out fine.  I have faith in it--believe me, I've gone over and over this schedule to learn what's changing, and I really think that once it starts it won't seem so bad.  You guys know that things on this board start as a grain of sand and end up in huge peeing matches.  I'm not saying that you don't have a right to how you feel, or that your points are invalid, or that everyone's right.  All I'm saying is that you give this new format a chance before you curse it into oblivion.

Please call me if you have questions about the schedule.  I have seen some inaccurate information on this site, even after Kevin's post, and you guys can always call me and get the right stuff...along with a nice Texas accent to brighten your day.
 ;D

[tzracer]

Hmm...


I see that LCR will now have three practice sessions on Saturday rather than two, in addition to the mock race.  Is it time to enter that for Saturday practice?

Actually we did the 3 practices at selected events in 2001 and had the 3 practices at all of our midwest dates in 2002. Sorry, licensed riders are not eligible :).

I also agree on the redundancy of the superbike classes, especially with the introduction of the Sportbike class.