Changing some rules for next year!!!

[ahastings]

Convince me with some argument of logic other than 1) becasue sport rider says so; and, 2) because you got beat at Daytona and don't like it.

George

Sometimes a bike comes along that outclasses the current rules structure. Do you think the Triumph 675 should be a lightweight bike. Well the old rules allowed it until Triumph produced it and the rules were changed to keep the class structure reasonable. Now BMW has done the same with the 1200. I don't think Sean wants the rules changed because he got beat at Daytona. We have seen how fast that BMW 1200 is all year in the MidAtlantic region. The only track I could stay close to it was Shenandoah a very tight track and it was still power wheelying out of every corner, does your DUC or an SV do that? This is my first year racing lightweight bikes, coming from the bigger stuff I was amazed at how much difference a little extra HP makes on smaller bikes, but add 30 hp and it is no longer a lightweight. Why should the BMW be removed from Lightweight? The same reason the Triumph 675 was removed.

[Super Dave]

I think the 675 is a bit different.  It never raced as a lightweight.

In 1989, we saw how fast the FZR600 was, but it wasn't bumped to a heavyweight class because it so outclassed every other bike out there...600 Katana's, 600 Hurricanes, 600 Ninja's.  It kept up with GSXR750's very well.

FZR400's were additionally very impressive when they were brought in finally to the US in 1988.  EX500's and RZ350's struggled.

Honda Hawks vs SV650s?  Should the SV650 been put into a class with Middleweights?

[ahastings]

My mistake the Triumph was removed from Thunderbike not lightweight. The rules for lightweight were changed in 2005 for air cooled twins raising the limit from 1000cc to 1210cc, previously only pushrod air cooled twins were allowed 1200cc. At the time there were no bikes that large. I don't think the 89 FZR 600 had 35 more horsepower than the current class standard the Hurricane at the time. How many people on here commenting have actually raced against the 1200 BMW with a decent rider on board. I have. If Ducati bumps their air cooled twins to 1100-1200 as rumored, they are going to dominate if they have a contingency program.

[clutch]

Sean,

Even if we take what Sports Rider says for gospel, why use the SV1000 as a yardstick of a HW twin?  Compared against a 999 or an RC51 neither the SV1000 nor the BMW look like a HW Twin to me.  The SV1000 was never built as a race track weapon anyway stock its know to handle like a turd (so anybody reporting that doesnt really surprise me) and the engine wasn't tuned for the power that a 1000 cc Liquid cooled V-twin is capable of producing.

I know you like the WERA class structure with their spec. SV class.  I also respect that you are one hell of a rider.  However, if you like WERA class sturcture so much, plase race with them to your heart's content and fully enjoy their rules when you are racing with them.  However, respect that CCS has a different rule structure (I would argue its not better, not worse, just different).  The BMW has evolved significantly and remains legal under the existing CCS rules and your beloved Suzuki has been left to languish with no really significant upgrades since its introduction.  Arguing that it is a current "class" machine paying contingency really ignores that it still is an un-improved design with the factory not giving it much attention because they have not had to give it any attention.  Maybe the SV's getting spanked will encurage Suzuki to do something with their LW offering (like they were forced to with the GSXR when Yamaha and Honda stepped up their MW offerings)?

Frankly, if you want to go to Daytona under CCS rules and win perhaps you might just seriously need to consider riding something else.  This said, don't worry, I don't see the BMW giving your SV any challenge at tracks like Summit Shenandoah course.  Please, open your mind to the concept to the total package and all the different tracks you will see over the year rather than just what has an advantage at Daytona...

In the end, I still don't see why is it fair to alter the rule structure to give your "old" bike an advantage over a newer bike that fits within the existing rule structure?  Convince me with some argument of logic other than 1) becasue sport rider says so; and, 2) because you got beat at Daytona and don't like it.

George

You are right George.  I am so upset that I got  beat at Daytona..whatever man.  I went down there KNOWING that the best I could do was 2nd, unless Nate had a mechanical.  We are not looking at changing rules because I am upset.  Read what Arnie stated, the BMW was power wheelieing out of the turns at Summit Shanendoah.  BMW has outclassed the LW bike and now made their machine into somthing more, a class up perhaps.  There is no changing your mind man.  I'd like to see your reaction and Dave's reaction if you had raced against this thing ALL year in the mid atlantic.  And obviously you HAVE NOT seen the bike in action by your comments above.  You have not witnessed it like we have.  And a stock SV1000 can be quite effective against a stock RC51.  I think the Vesrah SV's are in the range of 140hp or so.  But the SV1000 is not a supertwin?  And its not because SPORT RIDER "says so"  They did a damn comparision between two bikes, same dyno, weighed the bikes and listed the specs.  The06SV1000 is 111bhp and 417lbs, the RC is 122bhp and 439lbs.  So I will continue to ride my "old" bike next year in CCS and the WERA "Spec SV class".  By the way, the only spec SV class is at the Suzuki Cup.  Oh, and I just sold a 20003 SS SV1000 that made 118hp and handled great.  But I wouldnt have thought about racing that in LW, because I KNOW the power difference between that and a SS SV650 and it just wouldnt be fair.  How do I know all these things, guess it comes from having to race a Spec SV class and also from riding both the "non HW SV1000" and the "old" SV650.  If your ever around, introduce yourself and we'll have a beer!! 

[Super Dave]

I was tasked with racing a CB400F against vintage Yamaha GP bikes. 

35HP difference?  No, but it was 15 to 25...the CB400F I was on had 51HP.  However, to make it even harder, the CB400F weighed more.

So, yes, I have been in the situation.

FZR having 35HP more than the other bikes?  No, it was probably around 15 easy, but the package was different too.

So, the real question is:  Did you guys develop and send in a proposal to CCS?

[clutch]

We sure did.  Awhile back.  Guess we will wait and see what happens.

[George_Linhart]

Sean/Arnie,

No issues guys- you are each better riders than me and I respect your right to hold the opinion you do.  However, I am enjoying getting you guys all wound up  .

In all seriousness, I am just trying to flush out the debate and force a serious defense of the self serving "pro-SV" position - its easy to say its unfair, its more difficult to defend the position clearly in a non-emotional manner.  On one basis your point is very valid - the new BMW is in an entirely different world of power output vs. every other LW legal SS bike on the grid.  I will even concede that there "might" be an issue with the 4 valve heads with unlimited displacement on a V-twin in LW (can we perhaps least agree that 2 valve air cooled with unlimited displacement is cool and that maybe - just maybe - some refinement of the rules should be considered for 4 valve designs).  This said, I'm just not entirely convinced that this is all that much different from the class shake up that was caused by the SV with its 4 valve liquid cooled design leapfrogging the class on rules designed around the Honda Hawk with 3 valve heads (Arnies point on the rule change last year is the one area that provides some room for the argument).

Two points on the difference in our opinions:

First, I'm not used to winning races and I just dont take winning so seriously (focusing on winning makes taking anything but first place so much less fun).  Its a pure hobby to me which I just do for fun - I want to talk some trash in the pits and then go out on the track and do as well as I can; but, I don't get upset placing back in 5th, 8th or even 26th as long as I have have a safe race and have somebody (anybody) to dice with when the green flag flies.

Second, I really don't expect to see anyone running the BMW in the Mid-West region, and even if they did, the tracks here just won't give it much (if any) advantage.  Our class nemisis is a certain older (dare I say diminutive) but incredibly fast rider of a very slick SV 650 (cough - key - cough).  I don't see this dynamic of the Mid West LW class changing anytime soon.

Actually, we have met and ridden together at a few tracks before - I lived in NJ for for a while and I did 2 season with NESBA and 1 racing with CCS in the Mid-Atlantic region.  I am hoping to be able to make it back to VIR at some point if my schedule allows (I'll pass on riding slippery point or the new Shennendoa course of cement walls).  If I make it to the area I'm pretty sure I won't be able to keep up with either of you but would love to join you on the grid.  How about this - if you guys have a chance - come out to Road America, if you have never been there you have no idea what you are missing (but - those damn BMW's will fly by all of us on the long straights of Elkhart, WI).  I would love to take you up on the offer of having a beer and furthering the debate if either of the above can happen.  Maybe we should stick to less controversial subjects like politics, religion, motor oil or which racers are faster CCS vs WERA.  On second thought, perhaps thats a bad idea - maybe we should just agree that we like pie!

Peace,

George

[clutch]

Now we are talking.  It's all a hobby to me also, if it wasnt, I would be racing a pro series I guess.  I do like to win.  My goal is always a top 3.  Me and Arnie have chased the BMW all year.  I was able to beat it twice, once when Nate had a mechanical and tossed it in T-5 at Summit and once at VIR when he didnt report to tech..(I was good with that, that was $500 from Suzuki :)  Nate is a great guy, I have talked to him several times, always gives me the thumbs up or shakes my hand before and after a race.  I think we just get really frustrated chasing a machine that is really totally out of its class.  We might be out at Road America, Arnie and I might run the Team Challenge series in 2007.  As for the WERA vs. CCS.  There is a mix, no organization is faster than the other, many riders do both.  I race whatever organization just because I love the sport.  You can become fast, you have to become determined, yet have fun.  If you loose the fun, then it aint worth it.

[JBraun]

Doesn't Ed have the Thunderbike lap record at Road America? In a race he won in front of Estok, Bilansky and Kern
I would guess RA could be considered a HP track 

Sorry, just stirring the pot, this has nothing to do with me...

[EX_#76]

Doesn't Ed have the Thunderbike lap record at Road America? In a race he won in front of Estok, Bilansky and Kern
I would guess RA could be considered a HP track 

Sorry, just stirring the pot, this has nothing to do with me...

Ed has the ASRA thunderbike track record at RA.  ASRA thunderbike is a hp to weight controlled class and has no bearing on the CCS classes

[George_Linhart]

Guy - not exactly true.

I believe the BMW's and Buels run the same configuration in all the LW classes as well as Thunderbike while Ed had to add weight in order to be legal for the ASRA Thunderbike class otherwise he would be over the power/weight ratio allowance.  Given this, it is a relatively good yardstick that even at a HP track the SV is not totally disadvantaged.  Lets not even get into the new Ed Key titanium wonder weapon.  Are we going to be seeing the titanium marvel on the Mid West grids for GT Lights and LWGP next year?  What the heck does that thing weigh - 250 lbs?

George

[EX_#76]

Guy - not exactly true.

I believe the BMW's and Buels run the same configuration in all the LW classes as well as Thunderbike while Ed had to add weight in order to be legal for the ASRA Thunderbike class otherwise he would be over the power/weight ratio allowance.  Given this, it is a relatively good yardstick that even at a HP track the SV is not totally disadvantaged.  Lets not even get into the new Ed Key titanium wonder weapon.  Are we going to be seeing the titanium marvel on the Mid West grids for GT Lights and LWGP next year?  What the heck does that thing weigh - 250 lbs?

George

Your right it does have some bearing.  Don't get all fired up George, I was just trying to state the facts.  I do not see the SV at any disadvantage in SB trim.  Your assumptioin is incorrect about the ASRA Tbike trim.  I have first hand information that some of the Buels do change their mapping on thier bikes, others have an A and B bikes that are up to 12hp different from one another.  I think this thread need foucuss on SS or SB, it seems to be a mix.  You are right it is a yard stick, I think the CCS races are a better one for the bikes, ASRA is a better yardstick for rider's ability.