Changing some rules for next year!!!

[251am]

Do you guys read the Sport Rider.  It was just compared to and beat the SV1000 with the exception it was 5 lbs heavier, 2 inch longer wheel base, it made 112hp and the sv1000 made 111hp.  They even liked the handeling of the BMW better.  How the hell can you argue with that?  In the beginning the BMW might have been a LW, but it has evolved into a Heavy Weight Twin (Super Twin, Thunderbike)

  Occasionaly I read Sport Rider. However, I have ridden and raced BMWs for over ten years, with over 100K total miles on BMWs, and here is a fact I am trying to share with you on BMW HP #s; BMW states their HP #s from the crank. In a shaft drive system %24-28 of that Hp will be lost between the crank and the rear wheel, whether it be a Guzzi, BMW, or a Kawi. Concours. If I remember correctly the R12S is stated from BMW to have 125HP. Get out your calculator and multiply 125 X .25= 31.25     125-31.25=93.75RWHp

  Now, take a look at the basis of a magazine; a business that needs to make money with it's advertisers. BMW is throwing A LOT of money around to get a new gen. of riders. The SV and 12S may very well be 1 Hp apart, but it ain't the Hp anyway. It's the rider in charge of the Hp. Write your idea off to Kevin Elliot yet? The window for new regs. closed on Oct. 1st, I believe, but you could still try. 

[Super Dave]

What BMW are we talking about??? Can't imagine one being competitive unless the rider is stellar!!

http://www.natekern.com/media.htm

Nate's fast.  It's a lightweight bike.  The cost of admission on the BMW is high, so you're not going to see a whole lot around unless BMW starts offering a contingency program.

[Brad]

FACT-- Nate's STOCK, except for pipe and VP(this has been stressed many times by him and crew) made 101hp on a Factory Pro dyno at the Barber ASRA round. Dynojet dynos read about 15% higher..That means that SV814's 75hp SV is going to read about 63.5hp on the same dyno on the same day...The BMW stands at a 35-40hp advantage!!

Nate is a great rider no doubt, that has already been established many times over..My question is, why does everyone go out of there way to make it sound like that is the only reason he gets the results he does..

In another post, Nate has said he will probably race 600 and up classes next year. Maybe its because someone at CCS has determined the current machine is too far above the class structure performance wise?? Maybe its because someone at BMW has realized that beating up on $5000 POS SV650's isn't fitting for its premier $15k sport machine??

[clutch]

So if Sport Rider says so, its the gospel? Sorry Sport Rider is a hack of a magazine. I know someone else who thinks anything printed by SP, CW or Motorcyclist is absolute. Sad thing is he got pissed when his Gix1K made 10hp less than the hp printed by SR.

They did a freakin comparison man.  Same damn dyno. Its like talking to a wall.  Come on out and race against one.  Nate is a great rider, how is it then in practice Frank Shockley blew my doors off on the banking at Daytona on the BMW? Franks a good rider, but it doesnt take much to pin the throttle on the Daytona banking...fairly easy I gotta say.  Must be a Horse Power Advantage, but according to you all its not.  Geez man.  The damn thing compared to a SV1000...ONE THOUSAND.  What class does the 1000 race in?  SUPERTWINS.  I agree with Brads reply.  And he is absolutely correct on the ASRA dyno vs a Dyno jet.  My bike actually made 66.5 HP on the Dyno Jet dyno early in the year.  I then tweaked it and got it up to 77.8 on the Dyno Jet.  Dave...you REALLY think its a LW Bike when it compares to a SV1000?  Go race the SS BMW on a SS SV650 at Daytona.  I didnt see any SS SV's  near a 202 lap time and I really dont think they could go that fast.  I think the fastest SV 650 lap time I saw was from Kraget in MOTO ST at a low 209

[Super Dave]

I did 2:06's on a 1969 CB750 in 2002 at Daytona.  Li'l 18 inch wheels and all.

600's are pretty close in lap times to 1000's, but the 600's have not been bumped to Heavyweight.

And Frank Shockley is a very, very good rider yet.

It doesn't take much to put the throttle, but it does take something to get it out of the chicane or the infield to really make the banking, and any straight, matter.

[ahastings]

I'm not against diversity in the class. Comparing this to when the SV came along and whipped up on the FZR and Hawk is not the same. The SV is a current model bike with factory contingency, when the SV first came along the Hawks and FZRs were already out of production for over 10 years. Basically we are debating this here for out own satisfaction as CCS is going to what they think will bring them the most money in entries bottom line. I think it would be fair to limit the lightweight classes to 1100cc air cooled twins and the 1200cc bikes could still run in supertwins and thunderbike. A 30+ horsepower advantage is just too much no matter how you slice it.

[eh427]

When will the rules be posted so we know what bikes will be legal for what classes next year?

[Ridgeway]

To me, a big part of what makes running LW classes make sense is cost.  It SHOULD cost less to run LW than MW, which should cost less than HW, etc.

I like seeing lots of different bike out there too, but if we get to the point where one needs to buy a $10 to $12k or more bike (Buell, Ducati, BMW, etc) and throw another 5k into prepping it, then why race LW when MW would potentially cost less?

CCS needs a (relatively) low cost starter class for people to cut their teeth in.  In this regard, perhaps a spec class would be the way to go.

[Super Dave]

Tires.  With the best part of the tire lasting 8 to 12 laps...Middlewight costs go up quick.  Ride a 1000 four and they go up more.

As for cost...

Racing will always get more expensive.  GSXR750's were $4200 retail in 1987. 

An actual spec class...

If you have some sponsorship, often it doesn't apply in a spec class;  you have to buy and use the product that is specified rather than using something you recognize and can get a good deal on.

[Super Dave]

When will the rules be posted so we know what bikes will be legal for what classes next year?

Kind of depends on what needs to be talked about.  If things go well, we might see them at the end to the middle of November.

[George_Linhart]

Sean,

Even if we take what Sports Rider says for gospel, why use the SV1000 as a yardstick of a HW twin?  Compared against a 999 or an RC51 neither the SV1000 nor the BMW look like a HW Twin to me.  The SV1000 was never built as a race track weapon anyway stock its know to handle like a turd (so anybody reporting that doesnt really surprise me) and the engine wasn't tuned for the power that a 1000 cc Liquid cooled V-twin is capable of producing.

I know you like the WERA class structure with their spec. SV class.  I also respect that you are one hell of a rider.  However, if you like WERA class sturcture so much, plase race with them to your heart's content and fully enjoy their rules when you are racing with them.  However, respect that CCS has a different rule structure (I would argue its not better, not worse, just different).  The BMW has evolved significantly and remains legal under the existing CCS rules and your beloved Suzuki has been left to languish with no really significant upgrades since its introduction.  Arguing that it is a current "class" machine paying contingency really ignores that it still is an un-improved design with the factory not giving it much attention because they have not had to give it any attention.  Maybe the SV's getting spanked will encurage Suzuki to do something with their LW offering (like they were forced to with the GSXR when Yamaha and Honda stepped up their MW offerings)?

Frankly, if you want to go to Daytona under CCS rules and win perhaps you might just seriously need to consider riding something else.  This said, don't worry, I don't see the BMW giving your SV any challenge at tracks like Summit Shenandoah course.  Please, open your mind to the concept to the total package and all the different tracks you will see over the year rather than just what has an advantage at Daytona...

In the end, I still don't see why is it fair to alter the rule structure to give your "old" bike an advantage over a newer bike that fits within the existing rule structure?  Convince me with some argument of logic other than 1) becasue sport rider says so; and, 2) because you got beat at Daytona and don't like it.

George

[Super Dave]

In the end, I still don't see why is it fair to alter the rule structure to give your "old" bike an advantage over a newer bike that fits within the existing rule structure?  Convince me with some argument of logic other than 1) becasue sport rider says so; and, 2) because you got beat at Daytona and don't like it.

George

Perfectly illustrated.