Changing some rules for next year!!!

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

We gridded by points in the Southwest region (RoadRaceSW an affiliate) this year and it worked out great. Frist race was gridded by pre-entry, then all the other races were gridded by points.

How many regions race in your area? We have 2 sometimes 3 at the same event.

[clutch]

You could still grid by points.  The #1's from each region up front, followed by 2, 3 etc...it works elsewhere and you dont have to worry about pre-register if for some reason you cant. 

[251am]

    I run mid 21's at Summit, low 37's at VIR, 02's at Beaver Run and was doing 2:11's at Daytona for the first time.  The BMW was doing 202's.  I do this on a legal SS SV650 with 77.8 max rear wheel Horse Power on VP U4.  I think I have the corner speed George. 

  No, seriously, on an old R1100GS I was beating SV650s, and being beaten by some too. 70rwhp from the old girl. So the 1200 has magically picked up 42 RW Hp from 100ccs? George is not the one debating you here on this topic-my name is Todd. Secondly, I'm not quite sure what you are getting at with comparing your runs at Daytona v. the BMW- isn't it the rider that makes the machine?

  I understand your grievance with the NEW BMWs being in LW, but the LW description does not simply apply to displacement #s or the bikes' weights.

  I see guys on SV 650s giving the Beemer guys fits on MW tracks...?   Make an appeal to Kevin. He may see it your way. The R12S is only a threat with a small handful of riders at the helm. The other opinion to consider is that the R12S can only make a season worth of racing with a FULL backing for parts and service; the gearbox and driveshaft/rear-end is a serious weak spot. See what Kevin says...   

[Super Dave]

2. Also I'm new to the sport and CCS but if we all get together and sign a petition to change the rules for griding by some kind of point or qualify system would you guys be in support of that? Ideas on how to do it? We would also need some one who has the knowledge and experiance to help us to write the new rules covering all the details?

That opportunity closed in early October.

All you have to do is write it in a fashion that rules are written in the rule book. 

But a petition to get a democratic change isn't necessarily going to get a rule changed or added.  It needs some kind of support either for safety, finances, or attracting/maintaining entries.

[George_Linhart]

Sean,

I was very careful in my words and I didn't disagree with you - I clearly said I wasn't going to get into the argument on the BMW issue.  I can see the numbers ou posted and give them some consideration; however, I also think that there are issues beyond just the HP & weight.

Here are my thoughts on the BMW:  Just how important is set-up on a racebike?  2 inches of Longer wheel base is going to be a lot harder to turn - think about how much thought and consideration effort goes into a couple of mm changes in fork height on your SV?  That is going to have a lot less change than 2 additoinal inches of wheel base.  How about the impact of the shaft drive - I think that creates a pretty substantial torque stearing issue that would probably create problems at race pace - also, changing gearing to optimize for the track has to be a bear...  I would not want to race the BMW even if it proves to have the most potential on the grid.  If one does show up next to me next year - I will enjoy racing against it - if they win, I will take my hat off and congratulate them for riding a good race.

I think part of the issue spuring all this debate is that the CCS LW class had gotten pretty diverse - LW class is really the only category that has any competition from "odd-ball" types of bikes.  Rather than one single design being the clear norm (think 600 cc I4 in middleweight) this category effectively performance indexes in some older, legacy designs and now that people are taking these bikes to the track and sometimes winning the SV riders are complaining.  If Suzuki updates the SV and it becomes the hands down winner again, can owners of Buels, Ducati's and BMW's complain the the SV shouldn't be in the LW class?

Evolution of bikes within the longstanding rules of the class is an interesting question.  If the rules stay static but certain bikes get better is that fair?  If the rules constantly change to ensure that a single manufacturer's product is always at an advantage how is this any more fair?

Just thinking out loud, but could it be that part of the "problem" actually is that Suzuki hasn't updated the SV to the extent that other manufactures have improved their product?  The 1st and 2nd generation of the SV weren't all that much different (and the 2nd generation seems to have more crank issues as they went to a cheaper design for this part).  In this same period of time Ducati, Buell and BMW have each substantially improved their product based on old designs and are still in line with the EXISTING rules for the class - nothing has changed in the rules to give them an advantage.

Think about it guys.  Read the rule book - if you absolutely need to win and there is a better bike available, buy it and race it.  If you have a bike and it is made substantially uncompentive by a new bike that is legal for the class rules - you have to make a decison.  Racing isn't cheap in itself.  Winning consistently is exponentially more expensive than just being on the grid.  Figure out where you want to be and take the appropriate action.

I have said it before and I'll say it again - if you want a spec. SV class go to WERA.  If you want a diverse LW grid with an interesting mix of bikes and manufacturers, race CCS LW class.  After this I think I'm going to give up on logic here...


George

[Brad]

Here are my thoughts on the BMW:  Just how important is set-up on a racebike?  2 inches of Longer wheel base is going to be a lot harder to turn - think about how much thought and consideration effort goes into a couple of mm changes in fork height on your SV?  That is going to have a lot less change than 2 additoinal inches of wheel base.  How about the impact of the shaft drive - I think that creates a pretty substantial torque stearing issue that would probably create problems at race pace - also, changing gearing to optimize for the track has to be a bear...  I would not want to race the BMW even if it proves to have the most potential on the grid.  If one does show up next to me next year - I will enjoy racing against it - if they win, I will take my hat off and congratulate them for riding a good race.
George

I think, probably, and if's tell me you've never witnessed one of the -new- BMW's for yourself. "If" one shows up in your race(at a fast track that rewards hp) with a rider of similar ability to you, sucks your paint off down the straight, you may change your opinion.

[clutch]

Brad said it.  And Sport Rider liked the handeling of the BMW better as well.

[George_Linhart]

You are right, I wasn't at Daytona but I have been told about the dominance of the BMW.  I don't, however, think the BMW's would fair as well at BHF, Autobahn or Gingerman wher the MW region does most of its racing.  Mid Atlantic region with VIR and Summit Point might be in a bit of a different position though.

I really don't think I'll change my mind.  I really believe that diversity is a good thing and that the evolution of bike & rider just improves the sport.  The Buells coming in with available contingency was great.  Ducati improving the 900SS was awesome.  BMW injecting new technology into the boxer line is seems to be causing an interesting stir.  Time for Suzuki to step it up and improve their product and for Honda to resurect the Hawk!  Maybe it would be interesting if Yamaha developed a  FZR450 -550 (as a resurection fo the Fizzer 400) for the Lightweigh SB class...

As long as the overall rule structure doesn't change drastically I'm happy to see bikes change and evolve with winners rising to the top and losers falling to the back of the pack.  I don't want to see the sport stagnate with one brand or one design for each field and no development.

George

[Super Dave]

I have a tendency to agree with George.

If the BMW is not a LW bike, is it then a middleweight bike? 

The SV certainly wasn't a middleweight bike when it entered a class that had FZR400's, three valve per cylinder Honda Hawk's, and EX500's.

If Suzuki builds an SV800, will it be a middleweight bike or will it be a lightweight bike?

[SV88]

What BMW are we talking about??? Can't imagine one being competitive unless the rider is stellar!!

[clutch]

Do you guys read the Sport Rider.  It was just compared to and beat the SV1000 with the exception it was 5 lbs heavier, 2 inch longer wheel base, it made 112hp and the sv1000 made 111hp.  They even liked the handeling of the BMW better.  How the hell can you argue with that?  In the beginning the BMW might have been a LW, but it has evolved into a Heavy Weight Twin (Super Twin, Thunderbike)

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Do you guys read the Sport Rider.  It was just compared to and beat the SV1000 with the exception it was 5 lbs heavier, 2 inch longer wheel base, it made 112hp and the sv1000 made 111hp.  They even liked the handeling of the BMW better.  How the hell can you argue with that?  In the beginning the BMW might have been a LW, but it has evolved into a Heavy Weight Twin (Super Twin, Thunderbike)

So if Sport Rider says so, its the gospel? Sorry Sport Rider is a hack of a magazine. I know someone else who thinks anything printed by SP, CW or Motorcyclist is absolute. Sad thing is he got pissed when his Gix1K made 10hp less than the hp printed by SR.