Changing some rules for next year!!!

[imafrogg420]

I looked around for a bullitin about these two subjects and didnt see any so correct me if im repeating some one else but...

1. Whats up with the BMW's 1200 and Ducati's 992 being allowed in lightweight? They have these explanations for how things are supposed to equal out but as you can see from the 8 second lead that Ducati had on the TZ 250 which is a way faster bike than a SV how is that fair? I'm curious what other lightweight riders input is on this subject?

2. Also I'm new to the sport and CCS but if we all get together and sign a petition to change the rules for griding by some kind of point or qualify system would you guys be in support of that? Ideas on how to do it? We would also need some one who has the knowledge and experiance to help us to write the new rules covering all the details?

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

1. Aircooled motors dont make as much as watercooled motors of the same size so they get tossed into smaller watercooled equivelent classes. Also some riders can ride a "slow" bike faster than hell. Bigger displacement doesnt mean it makes more power. A 1480cc TC HD motor makes a whopping 55-60 HP and a SV650 motor makes 70hp on a motor HALF the HD's size. Air cooled motors and pushrod motors (aka Buells) have disadvantages against water cooled mills.


2. This has been hashed out year after year after year. Isnt gonna change without some MAJOR structure changes. Entries are typed into the computer by ONE person, one at a time. Getting grids up before the first race can get hectic as it is right now. And if something goes haywire it just gets worse. So trying to grid everyone up by points isnt as simple as some think. What about combined region events? What about 'visitors' from other regions? Kinda tosses a monkey wrench into it doesnt it? And forget qualifying during practice. For one its a serious safety issue and how would you know if they qualified for a SS race on slicks or if the bike they used for 'qualifying' is even for the right class? We could do qualifying heats but what classes are gonna be cut? Would you be willing to pay $200+ per race to make up for the the lost classes? Hell they had to cut something just to do a 15 min qualifying session for EX ULGP on sundays. Practices got shortened. NO matter what they do, someones always gonna bitch.

[tshort]

As long as power:weight is held within a reasonable range for the machines in a given class, things are going to be somewhat fair (how about a Buell XB 1200R competing in Ultra LW??).  That said, ever look at the chassis and suspension on a TZ250 compared to an SV??  Or even an F2 (TB legal)?

Point is, even when power:weight are kept pretty comparable, chassis setups vary a lot, with the SV mostly being at a pretty big disadvantage, at least in stock trim. 

And then, as SD pointed out, there is the rider.  For the most part, especially in the amateurs, and on the smaller tracks, bikes are not fast - riders are.  My $0.02.

[EX_#76]

As long as power:weight is held within a reasonable range for the machines in a given class, things are going to be somewhat fair (how about a Buell XB 1200R competing in Ultra LW??).  That said, ever look at the chassis and suspension on a TZ250 compared to an SV??  Or even an F2 (TB legal)?

Point is, even when power:weight are kept pretty comparable, chassis setups vary a lot, with the SV mostly being at a pretty big disadvantage, at least in stock trim. 

And then, as SD pointed out, there is the rider.  For the most part, especially in the amateurs, and on the smaller tracks, bikes are not fast - riders are.  My $0.02.

The Duc is too strong to be in supersport.  In SB, TB, GP, and GTL I don't think it matters.

According to ducatti's web site the Duc weighs 415 wet and makes 85.5hp, So you probably have a bike weighing 390 in race trim
03 and up SV is roughly 375 wet and a good running SV will make 75hp

SS power to weight,
DUC 390/85.5= 4.561 pounds per HP
SV 370/75 = 4.93 pounds per HP

I am sure that the duc with a full SS treatment would probable be more like

390/89 = 4.38 pounds per HP

Tha is my .02
Duc

[Gixxerblade]

I looked around for a bullitin about these two subjects and didnt see any so correct me if im repeating some one else but...

1. Whats up with the BMW's 1200 and Ducati's 992 being allowed in lightweight? They have these explanations for how things are supposed to equal out but as you can see from the 8 second lead that Ducati had on the TZ 250 which is a way faster bike than a SV how is that fair? I'm curious what other lightweight riders input is on this subject?

2. Also I'm new to the sport and CCS but if we all get together and sign a petition to change the rules for griding by some kind of point or qualify system would you guys be in support of that? Ideas on how to do it? We would also need some one who has the knowledge and experiance to help us to write the new rules covering all the details?

You Lightweight guys are a bunch of beyotches! :D You just need to ride the crap out of your SV or get a Beemer or a Duc! The Lightweight classes are motorcycles that do not fit into A. Ultra Light Weight B. Middleweight. What do you suggest they do? Make another separate Lightweight class for the 'weird' motorcycles? I hate to bring N8! INTO this conversation but he wrings that BMW's neck to get that sucker going. I guess thats the way youse gots to ride those SV's. 

[clutch]

Seen the latest sport rider?  The BMW vs SV1000 shootout?  Thats right BMW 1200 vs SV1000..not 650, the BMW made 112hp at the wheel and the sv1000 made 111hp at the rear wheel.  The BMW was 5 lbs heavier and had a 2inch longer wheel base.  None of us at Daytona had a shot in LWSS in competing for the # 1 spot.  You cant make a legal SS SV650 do 2:02's.  I have a built SS SV650 that puts out 78HP on race fuel. 

Another thing, the BMW was classed in the SST class for Moto ST competeing against the SV1000.

I believe that the BMW should be limited to Thunderbike and Super Twins.  Perhaps allow that sucker into LWSB and GT Lights under total SS rules, including DOT Tires.  The Ducatis should also be in Thunderbike.  Gixxerblade..people are not whining, they are simply trying to make the rules fair. 

[HAWK]

First let me say that I just dropped $5500 on my first SV.

That said, 8 years ago a bike came on the scene that turned LW class upside down. It make 20 more HP than the leading LW bikes at that time, the Honda Hawk and the FZR400. This bike came out and won everything, then the sanctioning body applied some special rules against this bike to somewhat level the playing field and eventually moved the Hawk and FZR400 to ULW. That bike was the SV, the point is that unlike most other forms of motor racing where there are specs for every vehicle to make it the same as every other vehicle, the motorcycle group just keeps getting faster and faster. The SV has had a pretty good run and now the options are getting faster. There will probably be some rule adjustments to the BMWs and Ducs but lets face it, unless you want to ride vintage, the class structure is a moving target, with every new model year the bike of choice will have to revisited. Bring on the BMWs and the Ducs, if they are really that great then in 5 years we'll see a class of them instead of the current class of SVs.

In the mean time I'm going to go out and continue to have the same fun I've been having racing on the track, even midpack I can find someone to race with and have a great time with.

[dryheat]

2. This has been hashed out year after year after year. Isnt gonna change without some MAJOR structure changes. Entries are typed into the computer by ONE person, one at a time. Getting grids up before the first race can get hectic as it is right now. And if something goes haywire it just gets worse. So trying to grid everyone up by points isnt as simple as some think. What about combined region events?

We gridded by points in the Southwest region (RoadRaceSW an affiliate) this year and it worked out great. Frist race was gridded by pre-entry, then all the other races were gridded by points.

[George_Linhart]

oh crap, not this again...

Hawk and I are on the same page.

Why is it that SV = LW bike and anything that can beat an SV is not a LW bike?

For Ducatis the 749 and 1000 SS are very different - you just cant group them as the same.  749 is close to a MW (down a few HP), they did OK in FX but not great.  The 1000 SS is 20-25 HP down from a MW bike even fully built so it doesn't fit there.  Architecture and design is more like a vintage bike than a modern bike anyway (2 valve head, air cooled).  With the air-cooled engine its just not possible to flow the amount of air and make the amount of power needed to keep up in the MW class anyway.

How do you explain the Ducati 999 winning against the Suzuki GSXR1000's at daytona if its all about the bike?  There is no way the winning Ducati had more power than the 1000 I4s!

I'm not going to get into the argument on the 1200cc boxer - I'd think that the wide cases, shaft drive, long wheelbase and substantial weight of the BMW would negate any potential power advantage but then again I've never riden one.

While Moto-ST created 3 twins classes - the SV class stomped the "higher" spec class that included the air cooled Ducati 1000's.  That tells me that the Ducati 1000's are still nowhere near as developed as the SVs so there shouldn't be so much whining from the SV camp.

More classes - what are you F'n kidding?  Do you want to run 2 lap sprint races to make room for all the additional classes people want?

If the Ducati's and the BMW's are so dominant go out and buy one.  I personally believe it is much more the rider than the bike, but, if it makes you feel better then blame the bike all you want...

[clutch]

Hey George..I said it and I'll say it again.

BMW1200 = 112HP rear wheel
SV1000=      111HP rear wheel

BMW is 5lbs heavier
BMW has a 2inch longer wheel base

Both bikes STOCK with no modifications

This all done on the same dyno by sport rider magazine in an article that is SV1000 vs BMW 1200 (the same BMW that is ridden in LWSS)

The damn bike is a Thunderbike and/or Super Twin

Its NOT LW guys whining. 

[251am]

Hey George..I said it and I'll say it again.

BMW1200 = 112HP rear wheel
SV1000=      111HP rear wheel

BMW is 5lbs heavier
BMW has a 2inch longer wheel base

Both bikes STOCK with no modifications

This all done on the same dyno by sport rider magazine in an article that is SV1000 vs BMW 1200 (the same BMW that is ridden in LWSS)

The damn bike is a Thunderbike and/or Super Twin

Its NOT LW guys whining. 

I raced a BMW for a few weekends.( When I say race I mean from an actual grid against other bikes. It was not at a trackday.) By weight it is a HW machine. By all other counts it is a LW machine by the standards of CCS.


The R12S @ 112RWHp!? That's an interesting dyno. I'd like to see. If you can't beat that thing with an SV650 stick with NESBA another year or two to pick up some more speed. No offense.

[clutch]

Then pick up the latest sport rider.  You cant argue numbers George and I think my finishes speak for themselves plus 5 WERA Championships over the last 2 years, 3rd at the ROC in LWSS.  I run mid 21's at Summit, low 37's at VIR, 02's at Beaver Run and was doing 2:11's at Daytona for the first time.  The BMW was doing 202's.  I do this on a legal SS SV650 with 77.8 max rear wheel Horse Power on VP U4.  I think I have the corner speed George.  Rules are meant to change, thats why there is a rules committee.  The BMW has developed into a HW Machine and there is no arguing numbers, on the same dyno, conducted by an independant person.  Maybe with you riding the BMW I could beat the BMW, maybe you should have stuck with trackdays for another couple years to pick up some more speed.  No offense