Changing some rules for next year!!!

[PJ]

I believe the BMW's and Buells run the same configuration in all the LW classes as well as Thunderbike.

Ah, but here's the rub. Most of the top running Buells in ASRA Thunderbike are in fact not LW class legal. Why? Most are larger than 1200cc in displacement, which is allowed in ASRA and CCS Thunderbike (and SuperTwins), but not in any LW class.

Ed's bike, which is legal for CCS LW SB, LW GP, GT Lights, Thunderbike and SuperTwins has to add weight in ASRA trim to make the power-to-weight restrictions. Therefore, Ed's bike is actually more potent in CCS LW-legal tune, where the top ASRA Buells cannot compete.

Still think the SVs are at a disadvantage? Clearly not in the Midwest region, at least not in the hands of an excellent veteran rider with decades of tuning and development knowledge...

[p3afoster61]

I have to agree with those who feel the BMW should be re-indexed out of LtwSS.  I find those, like Super-D who feel that the rules should not be modified to preserve SV competiveness to have missed the point. The rules should be changed if it will benefit the sport. Unfortunately, there are many factors to consider. Regarding parity, (forget Sport-Rider if you don't trust it,) the Beemer made about 112 on the MOTO-ST official dyno. Anybody who has been re-passed at Daytona or Road America by a rider who rides the the infield poorly can attest to this type of disparity.  Given that the CCS National championships are decided at Daytona, I feel the rules should provide more reasonable parity. To those who say," just buy the Beemer,"   I don't think  that's a good idea for several reasons.  First, Suzuki has done a lot more for racing than BMW, who despite running a full-page color ad  celebrating the MOTO-ST victory, pays no contingency.  The SV is good for the sport because it is relatively cheap, pays contingency, has developed a solid aftermarket armoury, etc. .  Of course I would like to see Suzuki make more improvements with the bike than they have, but this is also a blessing for racing.( But it should not go un-noticed that Kawasaki  released the their new 650 in response to the success of the SV.) . The rapid pace of developement with 600's and 1000's makes their respective classes much more expensive in which to remain competitive.  My larger point is that the rules should be changed if it is good for the sport all- things- considered.  It is good for the sport that the CCS class structure is written in a way that lets one rider with one bike ride in many different classes albeit at different levels of competiveness.  By the way, back in '86 I raced a 500 interceptor against the first 600's.  Back then we were all fantasizing about a future where these Lightweight bikes could make 100 horses and handle like a dream.  Better watch out for what you wish for 'cause here it is. Now if  Super-Dave's advice against changing the rules had been followed a bit longer than he has been racing, 600's would be classified as lightweight bikes. That's silly.  I can appreciate that the Beemer doesn't fall easily in the  distinctions -  Lightweight/Middleweight etc.. Perhaps it should be allowed in Thunderbike. I just do not think it is good for the sport to allow it in LtwSS.  By the way I'm coming back racing in '07 with my SV and probably a Ducati SS1000.  I want the Duc for the GST class in MOTO-ST.  I'm very curious about how the Duc will compare to the SV. After all, Brian Lacey, a very fine lightweight racer refers to his big air-cooled Duc as a "cheater-bike," not because his bike is not legal,  but rather because it IS. 

[ahastings]

CCS DID change the rules for 2007 to eliminate the new BMW 1200 from LWSS by limiting 4 valve air cooled motors to 1100cc.

[p3afoster61]

Thanks Arnie. By the way I checked my download of  post-race dyno/weight checks for MOTO-ST at Daytona. The BMW was 107.85 HP/417 lbs.; EMGO's SV1000 109.13 HP/425 lbs..  The top SV650 was 72.15 HP/397lbs. And the top Duc in the middle class was 85.85 HP/ 406 lbs..   I have changed my opinion.  At 108 rear wheel horsepower it seems clear that the BWM1200 should clearly be classified as a middleweight bike.  And BMW should be encouraged to develope it some more by shedding some weight and quickening its handling.  At 108 HP they neither need nor deserve such a severe handicap advantage offered for older engine technology. They could do it if they wanted.  Perhaps they just don't want to have to compete with the Japanese in the international middleweight arms race!

[Super Dave]

Should SV1000's be middleweight bikes?

[clutch]

No, the SV1000 and the BMW should be Supertwins.  Cmon Dave, the BMW is not a LW and  the SV1000 is not a Middle Weight.  They are both TWINS with HP that is well above the LW TWINS which should classify them both in Supertwins

[Super Dave]

It's a valid question.  With power as it is...

The SV1000 is a heavyweight bike that is also eligible for Supertwins.

CCS has no lightweight twins...that went away along time ago.

Thunderbike is something really different though.  The F2 is a good example.  There were plenty of 105 to 108 HP F2's in endurance racing in mild superbike formats in the early 90's...yet some say that the F2 is a lightweight bike.

MotoST doesn't classify the BMW as a lightweight. 

If we want to talk ASRA, do you want the BMW to have a different power to weight ratio like the F2?

[Super Dave]

I have to agree with those who feel the BMW should be re-indexed out of LtwSS.  I find those, like Super-D who feel that the rules should not be modified to preserve SV competiveness to have missed the point. The rules should be changed if it will benefit the sport....

I feel the rules should provide more reasonable parity. To those who say," just buy the Beemer,"   I don't think  that's a good idea for several reasons.  First, Suzuki has done a lot more for racing than BMW, who despite running a full-page color ad  celebrating the MOTO-ST victory, pays no contingency.  The SV is good for the sport because it is relatively cheap, pays contingency, has developed a solid aftermarket armoury, etc. .  Of course I would like to see Suzuki make more improvements with the bike than they have, but this is also a blessing for racing...
My larger point is that the rules should be changed if it is good for the sport all- things- considered.  It is good for the sport that the CCS class structure is written in a way that lets one rider with one bike ride in many different classes albeit at different levels of competiveness. 

By the way, back in '86 I raced a 500 interceptor against the first 600's.  Back then we were all fantasizing about a future where these Lightweight bikes could make 100 horses and handle like a dream.  Better watch out for what you wish for 'cause here it is. Now if  Super-Dave's advice against changing the rules had been followed a bit longer than he has been racing, 600's would be classified as lightweight bikes. That's silly.

Ok, now "the 600's" came out before 1986.  The FJ600 was available prior to that, and it was a middleweight bike.  The 500 interceptor was liquid cooled, so it was a middleweight bike too.  600 Ninjas were liquid cooled.  That started some of the changes that lead to where things are now.  The only 600's that I know of that were classified as lightweight, as you ascribe to what you assume to be my philosophy, were, and still are, single cylinder machines.

The rules were NOT changed to preserve the competitiveness of the 500 Interceptor inspite of Honda's stature in the motorcycling community and it's contingency.

When liquid cooled 600 fours with four valves per cylinder were introduced, the class structure wasn't bumped to accomodate the FZ600. 

When the NT650 Hawk was introduced with three valves per cylinder, it wasn't bumped up.

I believe the availability of bikes preserved the sport. 

Invariably, the transformation of technology and its availability will transform the classes. 

If the classes set up to "preserve conpetitiveness", your VF500 would still be in middleweight and everything else would have been bumped up to unlimited, but I guess heavyweight might have the 600 Hurricane and the 600 Katana.  :):

[p3afoster61]

Dave, I don't think that they should have protected the VF500F. That's not my point. I was just illustrating that I've been on the disadvantaged side of the equation.  My main point is that the rules should be adjusted according to whats best for the sport, and that there are a lot of factors to consider, such as parity, encouraging manufacturers to improve, aftermarket availability, cost, and contingency support just to name a few.

[p3afoster61]

And by the way, why not let SV1000 run in MWSS?  Perhaps classes should simply be Horsepower/weight for SS Superbike, etc.

[Super Dave]

My main point is that the rules should be adjusted according to whats best for the sport, and that there are a lot of factors to consider, such as parity, encouraging manufacturers to improve, aftermarket availability, cost, and contingency support just to name a few.

Ok, if you did that, how could you execute it at the club level.

As it is, the AMA can't to that at it's level. 

In October of 2005, Graves Yamaha had their new 2006 model year R6 that they began testing with their riders.  In January of 2006, those same models began showing up in dealers.  My dealer didn't get their first one, which I got, until March.

Do you restrict riders from running a bike?

Parity...this is club racing.  The difference in riders is great.  And a whole lot never, ever figure out anything about how to make a bike handle.  They might know how to buy a Power Commander, but that doesn't produce parity. 

[Super Dave]

And by the way, why not let SV1000 run in MWSS?  Perhaps classes should simply be Horsepower/weight for SS Superbike, etc.

Well, based on the formula for superbike, 1000cc twin...you can make quite a bit of power from some big V-twins. 

Horsepower/weight...who's gonna pay for the dyno?  How would you get 150 bikes through a dyno before and after events in a day? 

Personally, I think, in general, the classes work...other than there are too many.  Yeah, occasionally, a manufacturer will build something that's a ringer.  The FZR600 was clearly faster than any other 600 in 1989, but it's clearly a middleweight bike.  It fit the mold.