dicing etiquette

[kentlars]

I know it is old and probably people may think stupid but
"Do unto others as you would want done to you!"
I may have mis quoted a little but you all got the point.  Much what someone else said that if you thought it may have been close go talk to the person and explain you thoughts on the pass.  Most people are ok as long as it is close passing but most important SAFE passing!
Kent

[ice]

Coming from a motocross background, I personally find that passing in road races is much easier (I am still an amatuer FWIW). I often use teqniques I learned on the dirt and apply them to the pavement.

If you've ever watched a motorcross race, you've  probably noticed the mass of bikes entering the first turn......for all non-motorcrossers out there, yes it is as crazy as it looks.  The good thing is you get accustomed to having physical contact with the other riders...I've even bumped guys 20ft in the air over a jump.

For the pavement, my first recommendation is to get over the fear of close racing.  Grab a friend in practice and ride side-by-side throughout the entire racetrack.  Practice laying the bike right down on top of the other guy and vice versa.  Once you get accustomed to close racing, you will not be as spooked when someone comes close to you.

Starts...The best place to pass.

I find that at an amatuer level, most pavement guys seem uncomfortable getting even remotely close, so I use this to my advantage.... especially on the starts.  I would recommend running up the inside if possible.  You will be amazed at how many guys will back off once they see you.  I have never even bumped anyone in the first turn, but many will back off due to the fear of contact.

Once you're up to speed

Use the same tactic.  Run up the inside if possible and watch them back-off....just make sure that they see you significantly prior to the start of the apex.  This gives them time to back off and let you by.

Pass on the outside in long sweeping turns

This tactic works great because guys normally hold a close inside line on long sweeping turns making it hard to pass. Instead, pass on the outside, but lay the bike down on top of them relatively closely (like you did in practice)and they will often get uncomfortable and back off letting you by.

Close racing does not mean dangerous racing.....just ask the experts.  They have contact quite often as was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Just make sure that the further back you are in the pack, the more room you leave as these riders may get spooked and cause an accident.

Since you are running up front with the better amatuers, you should be just fine getting close to them.  

[DRU2]

Wow  I can't wait to get back to the track now.I have alot to learn this year and by the sounds of it alot to work on but all the things said in this thread are great and iI can't wait to get out ther and work on some of the thing that were sugested. Lowe119 remember me from last yearI pitted next to ya. If you need someone to practice with I'll practice with ya. Will got to the front together  ;D

[SlowDragon]

I completely agree with the 'treat others as you would want to be treated yourself' idea.

Last weekend, which was my second ever race weekend, I had a contact 'incident'. There was a guy wobbling around a turn and a faster guy was going around the outside of him but had to slow right down so I went way outside to get around both of them. The next thing I knew the guy on the inside of me swings even wider and stands the bike up. We make contact and I end up dirt-biking on a 996, which isn't a great deal of fun. By the time I stopped the bike, turned around and got back on the track it cost me four places. As a newbie amateur my view was that it's part of racing.

The feeling of being that close to other riders at speed takes a while to get used to. I found that after a few corners you get an idea of whether you can pass the guy/girl in front and also whether they hold their lines. It's a case of setting them up, looking past them and going for it or if you can't pass but can keep up then stay there and hound them (courteously of course!) until they either make a mistake or an opportunity presents itself.

Just my $ 0.02

[MightyDuc Racing]

A question and my .02...  Question:  first of all, I am a newbie with one road race weekend under my belt and a bunch of dirt track races when I was a kid (18 years ago).  There are some corners, like turn 3 at homestead, in which the fast line takes you way wide on entry and then you cut back across to the inside at the exit to set up for the "bowl" (turn 4) which goes back to the right.  A lot of the slower guys (myself included in the early practice sessions) stay farther inside and take what seems to be a more natural apex to the corner but then aren't set up for the right hander.  My question is, when I go from way outside back across what looks like  should be the normal lines to the inside at exit, am I "holding my line"?  I was able to pass a lot of guys there on the brakes cuz they didn't want to brake as hard as me while slightly leaned to the left, but I had my nose taken away by an expert that I tried to get on the inside there when he followed the outside-in line.  I took that as a race deal, and nothing more.  Am I right?      

Now my .02 on passing.  I am still struggling with my corner speed, but I am pretty good at going late on the brakes up the inside.  I also have the benefit of riding probably the fastest bike (thanks, previous owner  ;) ) on the race track in two of my classes.  I was very successful going way late on the inside and then basically parking it in the middle of the corner and accelerating away from them.  While this will probably not work as an expert, it got me to the front of the Amateur races from the back row pretty quickly.  Until I get faster in the corners, I'll keep doing this, am I a bad guy for doing this?  I also got hit by a rider that got spooked because of close racing and did my own dirt tracking on a Duc.  It was in turn 1 so I went from about 8th to about 19th.  Definitely cost me a podium.  Once again, just racing.  I didn't go looking for him in the pits or cry about it, I just moved on.  Racing is racing, and I am gonna try my best to give as much room to the other riders as possible, but if I'm ahead of you....until you pass me, that's my race track!   Just my humble .02.

[tzracer]

I consider a rider holding their line if they make one significant turn in motion. If you make several large steering inputs (this is not including slight corrections) it is very difficult to judge where you are headed. The line you take is not important as long as other riders can judge where you are headed.

Being late on the brakes is not always the best approach. One trick I learned about increasing cornering speed is to apply the brakes at the same point, but let off the brakes sooner. Once you get used to the new speed, you can move your braking zone closer to the corner (new brakes on marker, old brakes off marker). Repeat the process.

[MightyDuc Racing]

Being late on the brakes is not always the best approach. One trick I learned about increasing cornering speed is to apply the brakes at the same point, but let off the brakes sooner. Once you get used to the new speed, you can move your braking zone closer to the corner (new brakes on marker, old brakes off marker). Repeat the process.

Thanks for the free tips, I am gonna try that at the next round in a few weeks.  I noticed that I would tend to let off the throttle at the same time as everybody else, but lay off the brakes longer after lifting and pass into the turn.  Do you have a suggestion for the easiest way to get myself going directly from accelerating to braking without ending up going straight into the gravel or bouncing down the tarmac?  It seems like I should be able to accelerate a hair longer, then brake a bit sooner.  I'm lost.   ;D

[chris_chops]

The instant you let off the throttle, get your fingers on the brake lever and apply the brakes as hard and as fast as you can without excessive dive from the front end.  Too much brake too fast will pitch the bike on its nose and ruin the attitude of the bike entering the corner.
What I mean is, don't just clamp down as hard as you can the instant you get your hooks on the lever.  As you feed the brake, keep the bike settled with your feet, feel the pegs, feel the attitude of the bike.  After you realize the attitude of the bike is good, squeeze like no tomorrow.
Initially, the distance it takes to feel the bike into the corner from first application of the brakes to 100% braking will be quite long.  As you practice, get better feel of the bike, and become more experienced, the distance will compress and you will embarass guys on big 4-valvers.  You will know the bike is settled in a splitsecond, where as now it may take a second or more before you let off, feed the brake, then go for it.
Just my advice, please don't go over the bars or start locking up the front wheel.  Keep the rear planted.  Ducatis rule!
Matt

[tzracer]

Like Chops said, going straight from throttle to brakes is the goal. Using the rear brake before the front can help settle the bike and cause less dive when using the front brake. Personally I don't use it very much, but I know some racers who do.

The amount of dive can be controlled with oil level in the forks. If you have the proper spring rate but the bike seems to dive too much under hard braking, try raising the oil level, I go about 5mm at a time. Many manuals list a maximum oil level. Higher oil level stiffens the last third of suspension travel. Adding compression damping does not accomplish the same thing, it only slows the rate of dive, not the amount (unless you are on the brakes for a short period of time).

My main goal when riding is to be smooth, smooth with the brakes, smooth with the throttle, smooth turn in, etc. Trying to be faster tends to slow you down. Be smooth and speed will follow.

[dwilson]

I did a couple races at Summit Point this weekend and was thinking about the exact topic...  This was my second race weekend (I've also done a few track days with NESBA).  I was stuck in the heavy weight as the middle weight was full :(  on an FZR600 this was not good...  Both races I was stuck behind the same guy the whole time.  He'd pull away like mad on the straight but by T5 I'd be screaming "get out of the way" again.  A couple times in the carousel I pulled up right next to him (on the outside) but was always to scared about him coming out on me.  So I have 2 more DAL's (dead ass last) to add to my growing list.  

Is there a school in the North East or Mid Atlantic that can help me with this?  Also with NESBA (the track day club I ride with) you're not allowed to pass in the turns, are there any track day groups that will let you?  Any input is greatly appreciated as it was a pretty discouraging weekend.

[tzracer]

Try

http://www.penguinracing.com/

Most of their schools are at Loudon,NH.

[Baltobuell]

 In that instance you were probably right in being nervous about the pass. Many amature riders will see you going around them and try to speed up. Screwing both of you. Even if he doesn't loose it, you'll be on the wrong side of the track for the lefthander. As the year progresses you'll learn who you can trust and who gets excited. Till then, drop back and get a roll going to time most of your passes to get by on the exit on the inside. That way someone elses mistake won't take you out. DAL sure beats DNF. I spent most of my weekend regaining my nerve to turn in with anticapation a nitwit would try to stuff me and loose it again.
 At Summit, I did lousy, felt lousy, didn't get my bike running close to right till racetime, my laptimes were a disaster. Talk about dicouraging. Met some nice people and can't wait till the 25th.