dicing etiquette

[Lowe119]

One major part of my skills that I need to work on is racing in traffic. I can't really work on that in practice, because I don't want to do something stupid when we aren't even racing.  All last year I ended up one or two places back in many races (even more if something happened early in the race) only because I was nice.
I know everyone says that 'the person in front has the line.' My problem comes from people coming on the inside to take it from me. My first thought is 'he's got it and let him take it. It's not worth the crash and he's probably got the right-of-way.' I know theres been a few times this person is still probably a little behind me, but when it gets close I don't want to risk being an ass.
A couple times I've snuck up on the inside of a competitor only for him to shut the door on me - as I slamm on the brake to avoid his ass.
I've seen a ton of angry racers bitching at or about others who do stuff like this. I know it's a part of racing and I'm fine with avoiding others' mistakes, but I don't want to be known as a jackass either.

So please expound on how I should look at this. I know that just because I can see the person's front wheel doesn't mean he's ahead of me, but do I make it tough for him to hit his line or do I except that he broke a little later than me and give it up?

Racing up front in amateur this year made me realize a ton about braking and waiting a little longer than the other guy (and when not to), but I need more advice from those of you that have done it more.

Also, what if I accidentally piss someone off? Do you just let it slide off your back and know that he'll get over it? I know that sounds like a silly question, but this racing has a great atmosphere that I enjoy and I don't want to be known as the dangerous idiot  ;)

[EX#996]

Very good question.  I look forward to reading the responses.

Dawn   :)

[Lowe119]

I like how they replaced my curse word with pregnant doging :D  Dogs don't have to be pregnant to be considered one, they just need the capabilities  :)

[sdiver68]

Take this fwiw.  I'm not sure I've "done" it a lot more than you.  I think you beat me in a race @ BHF this year, when my door got slammed by a guy almost wrecking in front of me and I dropped 7 places in lap 1 lol!  I'm only offering my experience, and passing people not much slower than me is still an art I need major improvement in.

If you have the front wheel, take it.  Do everything short of banzai to defend your position.  There was a guy last year on a liter bike with great starts who I knew from my previous race with him where I was going to pass him.  Problem was, his "line" was so radical and sweeping at my planned passing point that he would not see me until we formed an X...too late.  So, I altered my line to stay just inside his, outbraked him as I planned so he could see me the whole time and stayed upright just long enough to force him past his turn in point.  At this point his only choice was to run wider than he wanted and "let" me go.  Note I said wider, not off the track.

You prolly won't after to resort to tactics like this often, and when you are MUCH faster than the guy you are passing.  At your skill level, though, guys know what they are doing...or they are in over their head and will prolly crash regardless.

Yeah, I have about as much sympathy for the whiners as I do for the guy in blackjack who had "their" card "taken" by the previous player.  Reality is, until you get a solid front wheel in front, the whole track bleongs to the guy being passed (or not).

I did piss someone off last year, who came at me kinda hard in the pits afterward.  I shot off a smartalek remark back at him.  After we calmed down, we talked about the situation.  Believe it or don't, in the next 2 races I passed him in the exact same corner, exactly the same way.  We still laugh about it to this day and are racing and BBS friends.  What he learned was more about holding a line and expecting some close quarters at times.  I learned that just because people are pissed at first, doesn't mean they have to stay that way, even in a competitive situation like the track.

Also, there were times when things didn't go as I planned and I may have had to squeeze someone a little harder than I intended.  I've found a pit apology goes a long way...and should come from the guy (or girl :)) who passed or else it may sound like sour grapes.  Talking about the situation with a fellow competitor lets him (or her! :)) know where you are coming from and vice versa.

[BC61]

First off, you say you can't practice passing in practice, sure you can, you've got to practice to get better at it. It just shouldn't be banzai moves, which 99% of your passes in a race shouldn't be either. Hero or zero manuvers are 50/50, you won't last long with those odds.

I know everyone says that 'the person in front has the line'.They do have the line to a certain extent but if you come along side, inside or out they have to give you racing room. Sure they could slam the door on you but they risk taking themselves out at their own fault.

My first thought is 'he's got it and let him take it. No reason you can't run through a corner side by side, don't concede just because he caught you. You should be able to tell if he is in control and you can run side by side or if he comes flying in, out of control, just get him on the exit.

I prefer not to put myself in a cituation where someone can slam the door on me. If I can catch that person under braking then I can hold back alittle, carry more speed through the corner and have a faster exit speed and pass them on the exit. Timing is important, if you catch them at the apex and slow to their speed, you then are only going as fast as they are and it becomes a drag race.

To many look at the braking zone as the ideal place to pass someone. It's great for catching up to someone, passing someone that is less efficient on the brakes than you or the occasional go for broke pass(not recommended) but it sure is easier to pass under acceleration. Problem is most new racers slow to the speed of the person infront of them and try to drag race down a straight. The pass needs to start at or before the apex of the preceeding corner, down the straight and if needed finished under braking. This requires thinking/seeing ahead, planning, timming and execution.

Looking ahead and planning passes is crucial. You need to be able to judge, proir to cathcing them, where you will catch them, is it best to catch them under breaking or after the apex, go inside or outside and where is the best place to pass them without slowing your pace down.

Racing strategy is every bit as important and difficult as riding fast.

My attitude on the track is serious and sometimes I can get hot. Though I might shout a few choice words in my helmet I get over it quickly becuase it will only distract me. If it bothers me enough I might talk to the person about it, no sense letting it continue to be a distraction. If I think I might have cut someone off or made a dicey move I'll give a quick 'sorry wave' and/or look for them on pit road immediately following the session.

[Lowe119]

Excellent input from both of you. Thanks.

When I started, I did all my passing on the exit of corners. Then a buddy helping me out, took a practice session with me. He passed me into corners and I passed him out of them. I started thinking that going in was the best place to make my move, but I think that is because of my lack of upgrades. I'm still racing a stock bike. If I had better suspension to handle better I can take a different line faster than that competitor. And if I did some carb and exhaust work, maybe I'd have a couple more HP to race to the next corner. I've already been frustrated with the fact that I've come out of corners faster than the guy in front of me, just to watch him slowly pull a couple more bike lengths further.

Don't get me wrong, I still pass people exiting corners. I love that. It's pure strategy  :) Stuffing people into corners seems like a cheap motocross move. It seems dirty to me. But I will eventually understand it.
I need more experience, upgrades, and tips from others to learn this part more. The 'riding fast alone' stuff is obvious to me. I can tell where I lack those skills and have done a ton of research on riding fast alone. It's the traffic stuff that is exciting for me.

So keep the advice coming.  ;) Do they teach any of these things in school?

[sportbikepete]

What I've done. Most times if I see a wheel coming to a turn I know the guy is most likely in to hot (I'm an AM) so I give him a sec to slip by where I duck behind him and either take the inside line and make him drift or he loses the front end and I do not have to worry about him. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't but I feel it is the safest way of battling without bar banging. I'm no pro but I know I get into turns a lot hotter than most AM's so if they are putting a wheel on me I usually know the out come. Damn that sounds conceited. The first time I was "stuffed" was in the rain and the racer did it purposely and I vowed never to put a racer in that situation that could cause them harm. Hey Andrew you probably saw what I'm talking about it was right in front of you at Summit turn 10.

[Super Dave]

Hmm...

Ok, your bike has stock suspension.  That is part of the problem.  How fast you can slow down is related to how fast your mid corner speed is.  With stock suspension, the geometry really just doesn't sit right.  So, your entry is just a little off.

Whoever is in front has the line.  Yup.  Pretty much law.  But, if you can get your front wheel past someone's foot peg, there is no way that they can boot you off, even if you make contact.  

Sometimes in expert races there is a bit of light contact.  In AMA racing, it's pretty much expected.  And you usually don't get mad about it;  it can be part of the game.

The trick with passing on the inside is that the radius that you are following is different than the line that you might be used to following.  If guys are running up the inside of you and you're going back under them, I think you're in pretty good shape.

So, the question is, do your brakes work correctly, or is your corner speed fast enough?  Stock suspension...there is an answer there.

Some use the dive inside move like a block pass.  If you can get under someone, you are ahead.  If you keep them behind, you did what you wanted to.  But if you loose it on the exit, what was the point.  

You've still got to do the laps fast to do fast laps.  

More thoughts?

[diesel748]

Keep this thread going it's great to hear some more experienced racers thoughts on this subject

[tzracer]

Passing is probably one of the more difficult things to learn, especially racers that are about the same speed. I consider looking and planning ahead to be most inportant. As you are closing on a rider, watch for any weaknesses. Where are you better then this rider? This often determines the best way/place to make the pass. Surprise is very helpful, once a rider knows you are back there, they can be more difficult to pass. Things get more complicated if someone is glued to your tail.

I do not consider a move on the inside to be dirty. Part of passing is getting yourself in a better position than the person you are passing. I leave other riders "racing room", it may not be much, but I won't push you into the weeds. One difference I have noticed between experts and amateurs, experts won't back off, but they will (for the most part) leave you just enough room, they tend not to block, but won't make it easy either.

I consider racing at our level to be for fun. If I don't think I can make a clean pass (I like to be sure that if I go up the inside that the rider knows I am there - I have been hit even though I was ahead) I don't make the pass. I want to be able to go to work on Monday, and I want my competitors to also. First place is not worth endangering another rider. On the other hand, sometimes what looked like a good pass can go wrong. I try to say something to another rider if I made a mistake and hit them or knocked them down. That is part of racing, racers will make mistakes.

Racing is a thinking person's game, that is why I call racing high speed chess.

[schpreck]

When I started, I was in the same boat as you.  I came frim the SCCA (car racing) world, and things are a little diferent in CCS, AMA, etc.  

At first, I would just ride an oppenent's back tire untill I could force the pass.  A buddy of mine, Eric Haugo, taught me that I should drop back a few bikelinks and wait for his weakness, and just use my momentum to make the pass in a  much more fluid and safe manner.
That really helped me, and made passing a competitor a much less hair-raising move.  I also started to get better finnishes as a result.  This way, you KNOW you're going to make the pass, instead of HOPING you can make it stick.

As far as someone passing you in the corners, just hold your line.  If they get pinched off, then they chose the WRONG time to pass you.  Of course, you should NEVER pinch someone off on purpose, but if you're already commited to your line, it's YOURS!  Remember that this is a RACE, not a trackday.  You are there to WIN.  Don't race dirty, but don't be a doormat, either.  It's good that you're asking thease questions instead of finding out the hard way.  Keep the questions coming!!!!!

BTW...Don't forget to have fun.  Too many people forget that rule.  And if some one comes up to you in the pits to complain to you about your riding, a simple appology and explination of your actions really does have a big effect.  Most of the time, you can just talk it out.  have fun!!!, and if you have anymore questions, post 'em here.  I hope that this has helped you.

[sokitset]

These pointers don't really apply to the etiquet question.  On that topic my opinion is get done what you can get done safely.  Part of making safe passes is being confident.  Just some thoughts.

One thing to keep in mind during your practice time that might help you gain a little passing confidence is to run places other than the race line.  Give the guys around you some breathing room, then find out what's out there and what you need to do to get the bike through a set of corners differently.  Run the rumble strips, cut some late and early apexes, run the bike WAY wide, etc.  The more you know about the WHOLE track the more confident you'll be when it's time to take the line less traveled.  

Also, see if you can find someone that's roughly your skill level and arrange to run your practice with them.  Make specific plans to allow each other to get up close and personal.  I think you'll find that this is not something to be tentative about.  It's actually where the fun is.