Well here it is.

[r1owner]

Don't know...  Just some food for thought & comments...

I agree Jeff.  While I am not nearly as fast as the top running am's I do occasionally come up on some experts.  The only time I would be more aggressive in going around them is when I have another am on my ass. 

That being said I still like to think that I only put a safe pass on someone.

[jer271]

UH OK, and I didnt know he was there both times he stuffed me and on the warm up lap was it needed to be done there too?? I have no problem leting him by but to get stuffed like that 3 times....nice.

[zx10ragentorange]

WOW, no comment. All I can say is I think they should not have combined races as I to get aggravated at some of the expert guys who try to race the amateurs when there is no point to it.

[superspud]

I like Jeff's philosophy on this point.  Since we aren't racing each other, there's really no need for one to hold the other up.  Let the person by so they can continue racing the people they are battling for points with.

[r1owner]

I like Jeff's philosophy on this point.  Since we aren't racing each other, there's really no need for one to hold the other up.  Let the person by so they can continue racing the people they are battling for points with.

That's all well and good (and I agree), but I think it kind of falls into the same category as moving out of the left lane when someone behind you wants to go faster. :)

[Sklossmonster]

This is a tricky subject.  I'm going to do my best to communicate, but sometimes it's difficult to express through a post.  Here goes.

First, I can totally understand how high emotions run in situations like these.  I used to be a bit of a hothead myself, and have been stuffed at a trackday in the kink at Blackhawk before so rudely I was actually walking the pits looking for the guy whose head I was going to remove.  I'm glad I never found him.  In retrospect, there was no bike to bike contact, and no blood no foul, but since it was only a trackday I felt it was completely out of line, dangerous, uncalled for and unnecessary.

That being said, there's no excuse for attacking someone in the pits, especially while they're on their bike trying to park.  I wasn't there at the time, and I didn't actually witness the assault.  I heard about it from a few other riders, and was pretty pissed.  I know Curt Henderson personally, I've been racing with him all season long.  He's an outstanding competitor, a hard nosed racer, and one hell of a nice guy who only makes all of us better racers.  I've seen him put some pretty close passes on some people, myself included, but I've never seen a malicious act, or what I considered an intentionally dangerous maneuver.  Just good hard close racing.

The two times, in almost one hundred races,  that I've seen him make bike to bike contact with another rider, he apologized to the other rider afterwards, and in his defense we were battling for the win in what we all agree is a dangerous sport.  If he'd hesitated, he quite probably would've lost the race.

I myself have struggled mightily with passing all year.  I came from a trackday background where polite passing is the rule, and stuff passes get you sent home.  I've talked to several of the top experts about my difficulty in learning how to pass aggressively when the race is on the line, unanimously they all told me if you're going to wait to get by you're going to lose.  You have to make the pass.  And they're absolutely right.  You do the best you can not to get tangled up, for obvious reasons, but this is racing and in a seven lap sprint there's simply no time to go to school on somebody.  You have to get by.

I can't tell you how many times I lost races this year because I didn't feel like I could get  by safely enough, or how many times I did a stoppie at the apex to avoid stuffing another rider.  And with some of the defensive lines some guys run on these tiny little tracks we race, it can be a daunting proposition to get by at all, much less with no drama.

In two races last weekend, Curt and I were in our own battle for the lead when we caught Tommy Girard on the last lap.  My unwillingness to stuff Tommy cost me the race.  Twice.  To Tommy, I have to apologize for the body language and head shaking I'm sure he recognized once I got by.  I was so frustrated and angry, as my championship season was being negatively affected by a rider I wasn't even racing against.  But that's racing.  Some guys let you by when they know you're in a different race, other guys are too proud to get passed by a yellow plate, and some don't realize you're there until it's too late.  Either way, it is what it is.

My feeling is now that we have trackdays everywhere all the time, people who don't want to expose themselves to these types of risks shouldn't be racing.  I'm not saying it should be a free for all on track, certainly not, but if you can't handle getting stuffed in a race you should be track riding, not racing.  There's a difference between close hard racing and rough riding.  Curt and I have traded paint, rubbed elbows, and he's cut my nose off so many times I can't even remember them all, but there was never ever what I would call rough riding, only hard racing.

We all know how hard it is to make split second decisions at speed, and let's not kid ourselves, we aren't exactly the best in the business.  Even Rossi took Melandri out, Hopkins took half the field out, Loris did the same thing, and these are the best riders in the world on huge wide tracks with a lot more to lose.  Close passing is part of racing, and with club level skills and twenty foot wide tracks full of seams and potholes, shit is going to happen.  If you can't handle it you're in the wrong game.

In practice, Ryan Johnson (sp?) on the red R6 came up the inside in T2 and spooked the shit out of me.  I stood it up, caught a seam, and almost crashed, but it wasn't his fault.  It was a totally clean, albeit hard and close, pass.  I wasn't expecting it, I didn't know he was there, and I overreacted.  And that was just practice.  Later he apologized, and I told him there was no need. It was my bad.  I just need to get more comfortable in that environment.

I've rambled on too long already, but I hope I've made myself clear in here somewhere.  Curt is an awesome rider, and we all get better competing against guys like him.  As my main competitor all year, I'd be the first to call him out if I thought he was at all out of line, and I've had the best view of most of his passes in about a hundred races this season.  Like I said, there were only two times I ever saw actual bike to bike contact out of probably a thousand passes this season.  Not a bad average when you think about it.

[grasshopper]

Congrats on all your championships this year Marshall. You worked hard for them. Cheers to that! Good intelligent post. It's going to be hard for anyone to argue any of those points.

[Jeff]

Well said Marshall & congrats on a good year...

One word of friendly advice (unrelated to this topic).  Don't for a SECOND, think that since you were winning everything in the AM ranks that the EX ranks will be as easy...  You'll see the margin of error slim down dramatically.  Make a mistake as a front running AM and it's no big deal.  Hell, I've left the track and come back in the same spot.  I've crashed, got up and STILL managed to catch the guys in front of me.  As an expert, you'll find that (a) Everyone can launch a bike as good as you if not better, and (b) the tiniest mistake will cost you 2 places...   

Best of luck to a great future...

[Sklossmonster]

Thanks, Jeff.  And I know exactly what you're talking about.  I fully expect to have my ass handed to me by the front running experts.  Battling with Curt has been anything but easy, but I know it's going to be even harder trying to snag a podium in any of those same classes as an expert.  But that's how we get better right?  Looking forward to it. 

[imafrogg420]

my final thoughts is asshole passing is untolerable but also being an asshole and retaliating is also untolerable. if you accidently stuff some one then you should apologize after the race and learn from your mistakes. were only human every one makes mistakes. in my case i didnt even know i "stuffed" the other rider. i preceeded to give him a thumbs up on the cool down lap cus i thought everthing was cool. i was then knocked back by his attack on me. so we should all talk to eachother and be friends not fight were all here to have fun right?

[Jeff]

Everyone has a threshold for their temper.  Sometimes it gets crossed.  A majority of the time, in retrospect, they are embarrassed and would have acted differently.

Just be careful out there, and if you pass your threshold, hopefully you have enough people around to keep you in one spot until you become rational again.

Marshall, I'm sure you and Curt will be up in the front.  It just won't be anywhere near as easy as one might think.

[r1owner]

Just as they have a subjective view of what "stuffing" is versus a tough pass. 

I wasn't there to see it all, but I can say that I've been passed by and seen Curt pass people and I've not seen anything I would consider dangerous either.  Not that I've seen him pass that many people, cause he is usually too far ahead!  I've never heard anyone complain about his passing either.  Well, except for when he went across the track at Gateway, but I think he was just along for the ride on that one! ;)