CBR600F2s are legal in LW 40 but none of the other LW classes. Why??

Started by limelight, September 30, 2006, 11:05:29 PM

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George_Linhart

Steve,

No and NO!

If you want a spec SV class - go race with WERA, they have almost exactly this class.  However, if you don't think some people spend a lot of money on "Legal" SS engine builds, suspension modifications and going through tires in WERA, you are kidding yourself.

Isn't part of the skill of being a club racer reading the rules to figure out what are the best bikes for the class and then setting it up the bike to maximize its performance within the scope of said rules?  Is it wrong that some people like to run superbike rules rather than SS or should we just make every weekend a double sprint SS only event?  Win or lose I like the sport and spend my money as I want - and where/when I have spent money on motorcycles and parts really doesn't directly equate with with when and where I have won or even placed well.   Also, winning doesn't directy relate to the fun I have in the sport - nothing beats a good dice to the finish line or an incredible & smooth pass irrespective of if its for the win or if its for 25th place.  

Personally, I like series with different bikes, each of which has a different balances of power and handling.  If one is clearly better than the others, that bike eventually will become commonplace (as happened when the SV replaced the FZR400's and Honda Hawks).  My Duc has more HP than a stock SV but a well build SV should easily get there. The Duc weighs more than the SV stock so there is some dis-advantage.  Another dis-advantage is that I can't swap parts or find spares as easy as an SV racer can - this requires more preparation on my part to do well.

Frankly, I have ridden SVs before - nice bike and I have nothing against them.  I just don't want one for a variety of reasons including that everyone else has one and it doesn't inspire any passion in me - it does everything you ask, it is a very forgiving platform and is good for racing.  The Duc seems to me to be a bit harder to set-up and more difficult to ride fast, but done right it is very rewarding.

Do I like to win - yes.  Do I need to win in order to keep racing - no.  I really don't mind being beaten as it gives me motivation to go faster.

For what it is worth I have less into the Ducati than I recently saw being asked for a superbike SV listed on the board and I know I have way less into than what people have spent to convert stock SVs into race bikes.  Further,  the sum total of tires I have purchased between the last 2 races (Autobahn practice day & racing + BHF racing) is one set (albeit I was lucky to have an old set of used rains on hand that held up through all the wet races).  I don't think you can say that I "bought" the races I won this year by throwing money at them...

So back to the topic at hand - what's your opinin on letting a cheap, used 15 year old Honda CBR600F2 that costs way less than an SV race in the LW classes for those opposed to throwing money into a newer, modern V-twin racebike?

George

xseal

Quote from: SVR6#231 on October 06, 2006, 01:43:58 PM
George & Guy: 
It is really about the rider.  If the Duc. is that much faster than the SV then the obvious question that arises is whether they should be racing against each other in the same class.  I suspect that they are pretty close when it comes to power/weight ratio.  We do know that the Duc is almost twice the cost of an SV...

Given that there are so many SVs out there, I'd love a class where we race these suckers stock or with very strict mod. guidelines.  This is the purest form of racing - who can go fastest on the same machinery.

Steve.



This is wrong thinking.  Buells are taking over the LW class from SVs, not Ducs.  Racing remains 80% rider and 20% bike.  There will ALWAYS be people with more $$ and better equipment than you, and there will ALWAYs be people with less $$ and worse equipment (my hats off to the guys that can only afford take offs and reverse their tires b/c they can't afford not to).

The other race org has much stricter rules, if you want SV-spec, that is as close as you can get.  Ed Key has an SV built to our rules (I presume he enjoys tinkering to optimize the bike almost as much as racing it), and its way faster than any Duc I've seen and 99% of Buells.

Seriously, getting beat by an air cooled 1000cc v-valve bike ... sounds to me like the credibility problem is coming up with excuses for losing to George (b/c its not the bike), the engine design is so old its closer to a vintage bike than a modern race bike. Besides, if its "all about the competition," why do you care if George is winning.

Enough silliness.  More different bikes make for an interesting and competitive class.  Some of the fastest Ducs aren't the "new" 1000s, but 15 year old built 900s.  I wonder what the excuse is for losing to those.

xseal

Oh ... and I'm for letting the F2s into at least the LWGP/GTL classes, ... I'll let greater minds figure out SS and SB, but it certainly seems like a reasonable request that would help with grid diversity.


roadracer162

In in for letting the F2 race in GTL and LW GP along with my lowly '91 FZR600. This is old news which I tried last year with my petition. The powers at be just won't budge.

Mark
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

Super Dave

Quote from: xseal on October 08, 2006, 09:00:02 AM
This is wrong thinking.  Buells are taking over the LW class from SVs, not Ducs.

Isn't that related to the fact that Buell put up money for contingency?

And back to the F2...

Is there anyone else other than me that remembers what happened a few years ago at Daytona with an old Supersport F2 in Thunderbike?
Super Dave

EX_#76

Quote from: Super Dave on October 09, 2006, 09:34:52 AM
Isn't that related to the fact that Buell put up money for contingency?

And back to the F2...

Is there anyone else other than me that remembers what happened a few years ago at Daytona with an old Supersport F2 in Thunderbike?

ASRA Thunder is power to weight controlled.  Barny beat everyones ass at Daytona because he is a very good rider.  I do not see anything wrong with letting the F2s in lwgp.  Not sure how it would work out in LWSS or SB.  I would think that in SB trim someone could get 115hp out of one, but it might have a short fuse.  Dean Hagemann ran a stock one in Tbike year before last, and got into the top 3 several times against Ed and Lacys SB SVs, both around the mid to upper 90hp range.
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

Super Dave

Barney is a good rider.  But he stunk up T-bike badly with the win that liquid cooled bikes like the F2 have different power to weight ratios following that.

CCS doesn't have dyno enforcement.  I think the F2's will mess up lightweight a lot.  Am I one of the few that has raced one?  If CCS puts it in lightweight, I'm buying.
Super Dave

limelight

If the F2s are too fast for standard lightweight classes than isn't wrong to allow F2s in to the old men class of LW40? 

Is the F2 an offical cheater bike of the LW40??

Richard Woten
Past President
Dell's Honda
GP  #12
CBR600F2

Super Dave

Super Dave

roadracer162

I just don't agree that the F2 is a cheater bike in LW F40. I have been racing the LW F40 class  and Thunderbike for the last three years competing in the Florida region. I ride a '91 FZR600 in these classes. When I first started racing it was on a bone stock machine. in the last year after 50K plus miles the motor needed a rebuild. I did so with some speed goodies in the form of a wiseco kit and other general mods.

I have raced against Bob Cole's Ducati 1000 (won Daytona this past March), Scott Robertson's Superbike SV and SS SV (LW F40 AM National Champ), Andy Hamblin's Buell, Tim Hall's Buell (reportedly 108 hp), Joe Bruce's stock F2. Rob Burokers Superbike SV (100 hp Prieto bike that Barnes rode at Daytona).

I have found on the track that the stock FZR600 is a close match for the stock SV, where the SV pulls stronger out of corners but the FZR600 comes back at the upper rpm range. The F2 is just a strong runner in all areas with the FZR lacking in tire choice.

The modified FZR630 is closely matched to the Robertson SB SV and no match for the Prieto SV. The Ducati, and Buell pull away from me on the straights and I must rely on luck and my best attempt at maintaining corner speed to match their speed. As it goes my competition generally have a lower lap time. I am only competitive by getting a good start (usually first into T1) and with luck  I will amke good headway through traffic (the HW F40 riders grid in front).

The same bikes and competiros that I race against in LW F40 and Thunderbike are also the same guys competing in GTL and the LW Classes. I would go on to say that the F2 or the FZR600 should only qualify for the modified classes and not the Supersport.

Mark
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.

Super Dave

Agreed, the FZR lacks tire choices for the stock wheels.  It was it's problem in the early 90's when the F2 arrived.

But one year, we watched a CCS race at Daytona with Larry Schwartzbach and Tom Kipp...Larry's FZR pummeled the F2 on the banking.  I know that my Supersport F2 made 93 RWHP on a Dynojet dyno in 1993 at the beginning of the year.  FZR's, well prepared made more.

F2's did everything well, and that's why they won more races in their era.
Super Dave

roadracer162

Dave,

I don't doubt what you say. I am only going with what I know through my own experience.

I wish I had your F2.

I did have my FZR630 dynoed at Prieto and was told I was a tad shy of the 100hp mark. I was told in comparison with the Superbike SV the FZR had  less power. I am not sure what dyno they have.

I believe that the F2 and FZR are a pretty good match with probably the engine builder making a big difference. I do know that Joe Bruce being heavier on his F2 and me being lighter on my FZR were a pretty equal match in acceleration and top speed, this on stock motored bikes.

I do think that the F2 and FZR are a good match within the Thunderbikeand LW F40 classes and against the likes of current LW class bikes (Ducati, SV, Buell, and even the BMW).
Mark Tenn
CCS Ex #22
Mark Tenn Motorsports, Michelin tire guy in Florida.