CBR600F2s are legal in LW 40 but none of the other LW classes. Why??

Started by limelight, September 30, 2006, 11:05:29 PM

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George_Linhart

Personally, I would like to see F2's allowed in Lightweight GP and GT Lights - give them two more class to race where they can be competitive in addition to Thunderbike.  It also puts another type of bike on the grid which makes it more interesting and makes the grids bigger.  The 250 GP bikes are already legal in the LWGP and GT Lights - the LW bikes are at a disadvantage to a true GP bike with a good rider at almost all tracks.  The only tracks I see the F2's having a really big advantage at would be Road America and Daytona.

I guess here is another side of the issue though - conceptually, is it the obligation of the sanctioning organization to make sure you have a lot of classes where  your out-dated and obsolete bike can be competitive, or is it your obligation as a racer to find a way to be compeititive with equipment that complies with the rules as they stand?

I love my F2 and had a great time running it in Thunderbike this year but, in order to run more races I bought something that was LW legal under the existing set of rules rather than waiting for the rules to change. 

All those that want to let the F2's in can send a letter to CCS.  I already sent Eric an email proposing the rule change and giving him my logic about why I think it makes sense.  I don't think their minds will be swayed but the more people that put the suggestion forward the better a chance there is that they will make the change.  If the rules change and F2's are let in - I will happily race against them!

George

EX_#76

Quote from: George_Linhart on October 03, 2006, 10:45:23 AM
Guy,

Is change and new applications of technology in racing a bad thing (if you can call an air cooled 2 valve head "new" technology)?  Let me find my soap box and do some preaching.

First point:

If you want a spec SV class go race WERA - that is almost exactly what they have.  If you like the CCS class structure, either live with it on your SV or figure out what you can do to have the best bike allowed under the rules (either modify what you have or buy something new, -whatever - the choice is yours).

Second:

Historically the LW class was all about FZR400's and Hawk GT's.  The Hawk was "allowed" in the LW class despite the increased engine size as it had a 3 valve head and the two bikes were reasonably competitive.  Suzuki built the SV 650 with a water cooled 4 valve head and took over the class.  The Hawk and FZR400 riders complained (based on the 4 valve vs. 3 valve head design) and were told to shut up and buy an SV if they wanted to be competitive because it was allowed in the rules of the class.

Now you have the liquid cooled, 4 valve head Suzuki in stock form at a disadvantage in power output to the air cooled 2 valve Ducati's and the SV riders are complaining.  Don't you see the irony here?

In that vein, if you want to go back in time - AHRMA and WERA do vintage racing, there are no 1000SS classes in true vintage racing (of course the SV is allowed either so you need to find a different weapon of choice)...

third point:

I still believe that in full superbike specs at the same cost an SV, a Ducati 1000 and a Buel will be in the same neighborhood.  In terms of development the SV riders have had more time to fully explore what the bike can do and the aftermarket is very deep.  The problem is a crank that can't hold up reliably as you start getting to the 100 hp level.

The 1000DS is just an evolution of the 900 SS engines anyway.  Ducati developed the engine, took out the week points and made it better out of the box.  In the old days with a lot of tinkering, parts, time and effort you could get the 900SS engine to where the 1000 is so - just not that many bothered so why wasn't it an issue then?  If Suzuki fixes their crank problem so you can reliably put more power the the engine - will we be able to cry foul?  Did everyone complain when buel increased the engine size from 900 to 1200?  What about if the SV becomes a 700 stock vs a 650?

Last point:

The rule structure if the rule structure.  The Middle Weight and Unlimited guys are fairly used to needing to upgrade every 2-3 years to stay competitive.  Its just a fluke that the SV has remained top dog for as long as it has with little competition.  Just because old bikes are less competitive doesn't mean the rules should change so the old bikes stay at the top.  If that's the case, the MW class rules would be written so that my 1992 F2 would still be competitive as a MW bike rather than just being primarily a Thunderbike class weapon.

Frankly - if the other bikes are so much better - buy one.

Racing is not about being "fair" to older bikes as they become obsolete.  Racing is about the organization (in this case CCS) setting some rules that stay consistent and the manufacturers (to some extent) and the racers (to a larger extent) figuring out the best mix of cost, power, reliability and handling that allows them to win under the rules.

George
CCS #773
Lightweight class assasin on my "cheater" 1000 cc Ducati

Sorry George, my comment was not meant to offend, it was supposed to be a little tongue in cheek.  You are right about buying the bike that is best suited for the class.  If rules stay the same, and things work out the way I would like them to, I will be riding a Duc.  I never referred to them as cheater bikes, They are legal in the current rules structure and that is that.  I do however feel that the places to run a small displacement bike have disappeared in CCS (this is due in part to the SV).  That was the reason for my comment.  The lack of classes for small bikes is probably related more to the racers than CCS, for the most part we choose not to run small bikes because they do not seem to have the same creditability as riding a middleweight bike.  CCS restructure the classes to get more people on the track generating income for the sanctioning body.  I personally think it might be more difficult to go fast on a slow bike.  ( I am sure that comment will come back to haunt me.)

I for one, do not want a spec class at all, I love to work on my bike.  If the rules were too restrictive, I would loose some interest in racing.  I am sure that when the SV came around all of the same comments were made by the real lightweight bike owners.  So you are right evolution is a good thing, depending upon which side of the rules you are currently on.   I totally agree that all of these bikes will be very equal in superbike trim.  I am not so sure about in supersport trim.  I guess that we will see next year.

As far as the F2 is concerned, Let them in GTL and GP, It would be fun!!  That is one of the things that I like about CCS thunder bike, many different bikes that do certain things better than others.  LWGP should definitely be dominated by 250GP bikes, and I do not think an F2 would pose any threat to a good rider on a 250.
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

George_Linhart

Guy - no issues - I just felt like getting on a soap box.   :blahblah:

I was poking fun of myself as well calling it a "cheater" bike (the power is nice though).

I have been on the other side of the argument more often than not as I tend to get emotionally attached to my obsolete toys!

George Linhart
CCS #773


EX_#76

Quote from: George_Linhart on October 03, 2006, 05:49:42 PM
Guy - no issues - I just felt like getting on a soap box.   :blahblah:

I was poking fun of myself as well calling it a "cheater" bike (the power is nice though).

I have been on the other side of the argument more often than not as I tend to get emotionally attached to my obsolete toys!

George Linhart
CCS #773




Cool!!!  I was begining to think that I should not speak my opinions out here anymore.  I seem to have the ability to piss people off quickly.  That is not what I am trying to do.  Just sticking my .02 in that is all. 
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

Super Dave

Quote from: Racingxtc7 on October 03, 2006, 01:24:32 PM
HHMMM, 400lbs 90hp bike can run 1:12s at blackhawk? So.... why aren't any of the buell racers running 1:12s? They even have the huge advantage of have more than twice the torque. I even know of a guy who won 7 national championships last year who rides a 350ish lbs 90ish horsepower bike and he only runs 1:14s at blackhawk.

Reasons "TO" let the old school middleweight f2 in lightweight:
1) its of simular wieght and power as current lightweights
2) it would INCREASE grid size(more money for CCS) because many racers show up EVERY weekend with them.

Reasons "NOT TO" let the old school middleweight f2 in lightweight:
1) I dont want to
2) I don't like money

Ed's done 13's.  After a few years of doing this, Ed has lost some of his reaction time that he had 20 years ago.  If we could make him younger, he could go faster with the skills that he has.  Does Ed's SV even weigh 350?
Super Dave

EX_#76

Quote from: Super Dave on October 03, 2006, 08:12:59 PM
Ed's done 13's.  After a few years of doing this, Ed has lost some of his reaction time that he had 20 years ago.  If we could make him younger, he could go faster with the skills that he has.  Does Ed's SV even weigh 350?

No
Guy Bartz
MW EX #76
Mass Reduction LLC Home of the Grip Doctor

PJ

Quote from: Racingxtc7 on October 03, 2006, 01:24:32 PM
HHMMM, 400lbs 90hp bike can run 1:12s at blackhawk? So.... why aren't any of the buell racers running 1:12s?

Ummm. Because we're all old and fat?

Oh wait, some of us are just fat. Or old.
Paul James
AMA Pro XR1200 #70
www.facebook.com/jamesgangracing
www.twitter.com/jamesgangracing

PJ

Quote from: Super Dave on October 03, 2006, 08:12:59 PM
Ed's done 13's.  After a few years of doing this, Ed has lost some of his reaction time that he had 20 years ago.  If we could make him younger, he could go faster with the skills that he has.  Does Ed's SV even weigh 350?

I have no doubt that Ed can still do 13s at Blackhawk.

He just doesn't have to.
Paul James
AMA Pro XR1200 #70
www.facebook.com/jamesgangracing
www.twitter.com/jamesgangracing

limelight

From the responses it sounds like most racers are OK with F2s in the lightweight classes.

So far the only reason I have heard that sounds likely is that CCS will not allow F2s in LW classes due to advancement points for amatures.
Richard Woten
Past President
Dell's Honda
GP  #12
CBR600F2

xseal

Quote from: jarelj on October 02, 2006, 09:09:43 PM
Ducati is likely going to pay contingency for the Sport1000 in 2007 as well now that the SS1000 has been discontinued, and you can purchase them on the same race program from Ducati as the SS was available on.  Just doesn't have full bodywork on it, but most of those "in the know" feel that the Sport chassis is even better than the SS for track use.  Belly pans are already available to make them race-legal.  I rode a Sport (actually the Paul Smart model) at the track last week and was very impressed. 

I think a bunch of Paul Smart replicas would be very cool to see on the track ... mandatory open megaphone exhausts.

SV88

George & Guy: 
I can understand you running the Duc but don't you feel you've lost a bit of credibility as a rider because if/when you win,  you (and others) will be asking, did I win because my skills have improved or because I've got a faster mount.  To me the attraction of club racing is the competition and the unwritten rule that this isn't the type of racing where $$$ rule.  I was pretty disapointed after talking with Marshall by the fact the he felt that in order to be competitive in MW, he had to drop $2000 a weekend on tires.  So, is the winner the person with the deeper pockets?

It is really about the rider.  If the Duc. is that much faster than the SV then the obvious question that arises is whether they should be racing against each other in the same class.  I suspect that they are pretty close when it comes to power/weight ratio.  We do know that the Duc is almost twice the cost of an SV...

Given that there are so many SVs out there, I'd love a class where we race these suckers stock or with very strict mod. guidelines.  This is the purest form of racing - who can go fastest on the same machinery.

Steve.

Fastsv650/SVR6/Steve sv23
09R6rdrace,13KTM250xc enduro,03SV1000N, 99-02 sv650 project
ret. CCS MW/FL/SE 88  Moto A SSP 881

cbr-racer

F2's in LW classes  :cheers:
I would love to run my F2 in any LW class.
So I can get rid of the GS. And the GS is slow but the track time is
all good. Cause I can only run the F2 in thunderbike without getting
run over. I say LW for the F2, ED KEY will still win! :biggrin:
Bill (whisky) http://www.sponsorhouse.com/members/whisky
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