CBR600F2s are legal in LW 40 but none of the other LW classes. Why??

[limelight]

1990 - 92 Honda CBR600F2s are legal in LW 40 and Thunderbike.  If an F2 is legal in LW 40 what is the logic behind not allowing an F2 in LWSS LWSB and/or LWGP?

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Probabaly in LWF40 because that class doesnt count for championship points.

Thunderbike because of the age of teh bike and Thunderbike used to be Heavyweight Sportsman which mainly was olderbikes lik F2's, Hurricanes, Interceptors, FZ600's, GPZ's and the likes.

[Racingxtc7]

because to F2 is too slow, it will get in the way to all the +100 hp buell's, bmw's and ducati's. lightwieght class is for liter bikes!!! duh!

[StuartV666]

 

[EX_#76]

because to F2 is too slow, it will get in the way to all the +100 hp buell's, bmw's and ducati's. lightwieght class is for liter bikes!!! duh!

Jeff makes an interesting point.  There are not too many classes for a small displacement motorcycle anymore.  To run in ultra lightweight you need to have a 750 air-cooled Duc.  LWSS is going to be over run with SS-1000cc Ducs.  Wait, wait, wait, I am starting to see a pattern here....  Ducs are taking over the lightweight classes with heavy weight bikes.  Our current rule structure is eliminating real lightweight bikes, or at least rendering them uncompetitive.  I think that stinks.   

[xseal]

1000SS Ducati's were introduced in 2003.  Why are they suddenly going to take over now, did something change? 

They are discontinued for 2007, BTW, so all you "LW invaders," good luck finding one.

[EX_#76]

I am just speculating.  I have races against a few of them  this year, and am very impressed with their performance against an SV

[jarelj]

1000SS Ducati's were introduced in 2003.  Why are they suddenly going to take over now, did something change? 

They are discontinued for 2007, BTW, so all you "LW invaders," good luck finding one.

Ducati is likely going to pay contingency for the Sport1000 in 2007 as well now that the SS1000 has been discontinued, and you can purchase them on the same race program from Ducati as the SS was available on.  Just doesn't have full bodywork on it, but most of those "in the know" feel that the Sport chassis is even better than the SS for track use.  Belly pans are already available to make them race-legal.  I rode a Sport (actually the Paul Smart model) at the track last week and was very impressed.  Personally, I think the new Ninja650R could be the dominant bike in the LW class once there are some more serious power mods available for it.  It's already competitive from my experience with only 69HP as far as running lap times with the SV's, the chassis is quite a bit better than the SV as every SV racer who has ridden mine has said.  There has just been very little development done on it this year, so things like hotter cams and piston kits are not available yet for the superbike classes.

[limelight]

In my region the LW classes are SV650 IROC races.  Wouldn't a few F2s make it a little more interesting. 

I really like the LW classes but being a Honda motorcycle dealer my only option currently is a Hawk GT which is hard to find and not competitive.   I race an F2 in LW 40 and the bike is competitive but not dominate to the SV650s.

[George_Linhart]

Guy,

Is change and new applications of technology in racing a bad thing (if you can call an air cooled 2 valve head "new" technology)?  Let me find my soap box and do some preaching.

First point:

If you want a spec SV class go race WERA - that is almost exactly what they have.  If you like the CCS class structure, either live with it on your SV or figure out what you can do to have the best bike allowed under the rules (either modify what you have or buy something new, -whatever - the choice is yours).

Second:

Historically the LW class was all about FZR400's and Hawk GT's.  The Hawk was "allowed" in the LW class despite the increased engine size as it had a 3 valve head and the two bikes were reasonably competitive.  Suzuki built the SV 650 with a water cooled 4 valve head and took over the class.  The Hawk and FZR400 riders complained (based on the 4 valve vs. 3 valve head design) and were told to shut up and buy an SV if they wanted to be competitive because it was allowed in the rules of the class.

Now you have the liquid cooled, 4 valve head Suzuki in stock form at a disadvantage in power output to the air cooled 2 valve Ducati's and the SV riders are complaining.  Don't you see the irony here?

In that vein, if you want to go back in time - AHRMA and WERA do vintage racing, there are no 1000SS classes in true vintage racing (of course the SV is allowed either so you need to find a different weapon of choice)...

third point:

I still believe that in full superbike specs at the same cost an SV, a Ducati 1000 and a Buel will be in the same neighborhood.  In terms of development the SV riders have had more time to fully explore what the bike can do and the aftermarket is very deep.  The problem is a crank that can't hold up reliably as you start getting to the 100 hp level.

The 1000DS is just an evolution of the 900 SS engines anyway.  Ducati developed the engine, took out the week points and made it better out of the box.  In the old days with a lot of tinkering, parts, time and effort you could get the 900SS engine to where the 1000 is so - just not that many bothered so why wasn't it an issue then?  If Suzuki fixes their crank problem so you can reliably put more power the the engine - will we be able to cry foul?  Did everyone complain when buel increased the engine size from 900 to 1200?  What about if the SV becomes a 700 stock vs a 650?

Last point:

The rule structure if the rule structure.  The Middle Weight and Unlimited guys are fairly used to needing to upgrade every 2-3 years to stay competitive.  Its just a fluke that the SV has remained top dog for as long as it has with little competition.  Just because old bikes are less competitive doesn't mean the rules should change so the old bikes stay at the top.  If that's the case, the MW class rules would be written so that my 1992 F2 would still be competitive as a MW bike rather than just being primarily a Thunderbike class weapon.

Frankly - if the other bikes are so much better - buy one.

Racing is not about being "fair" to older bikes as they become obsolete.  Racing is about the organization (in this case CCS) setting some rules that stay consistent and the manufacturers (to some extent) and the racers (to a larger extent) figuring out the best mix of cost, power, reliability and handling that allows them to win under the rules.

George
CCS #773
Lightweight class assasin on my "cheater" 1000 cc Ducati

[Super Dave]

F2's in lightweight...

Again, same topic, different year.

In the early 90's, decent supersport F2's made 90+ HP.  If we want to use Blackhawk as an example, the fastest F2 times were in the high 14's.  By 2001/2002, times on current GSXR's and R6's dropped that time to the upper mid 13's.  The track was unchanged during that time.

In 2003, we raced on the new surface, and because of the extra grip, times dropped two seconds pretty much overnight.  In April of 2003, 600's were running in the 13 range in nearly freezing temperatures.

There is no reason why a well set up, well ridden CBR600F2 in supersport trim couldn't run 1:12's at Blackhawk Farms Raceway.  I don't know of any current lightweight superbikes at Blackhawk that do those kind of times, and there are the machinery and riders available to exploit good times.

[Racingxtc7]

HHMMM, 400lbs 90hp bike can run 1:12s at blackhawk? So.... why aren't any of the buell racers running 1:12s? They even have the huge advantage of have more than twice the torque. I even know of a guy who won 7 national championships last year who rides a 350ish lbs 90ish horsepower bike and he only runs 1:14s at blackhawk.

Reasons "TO" let the old school middleweight f2 in lightweight:
1) its of simular wieght and power as current lightweights
2) it would INCREASE grid size(more money for CCS) because many racers show up EVERY weekend with them.

Reasons "NOT TO" let the old school middleweight f2 in lightweight:
1) I dont want to
2) I don't like money