Running Experts and Amateurs Together In Practice

[Jason748]

What about running practice sessions by lap times instead of by class, I know LRRS does something like this?

[r6_philly]

you cant practice your own race times (say 1:15) while dodging AM's running 1:25's. It is too dangerous. and even if not, it is pointless to "practice" if you have to slow down 3 times a lap.

lapping a slow AM? not all AM's are so slow. And most expert races are not combined in MA. and in sprints you dont catch up to the mid pack AM's to lap them. only 1 or 2.

Put it this way, mid pack Experts will be put into advance group at trackdays while mid pack AM's will be put into intermediate group. If a trackday org won't put them together for safety reasons, why should a race org?

[HAWK]

you cant practice your own race times (say 1:15) while dodging AM's running 1:25's. It is too dangerous. and even if not, it is pointless to "practice" if you have to slow down 3 times a lap.

So if I follow your logic then you have no problem running race pace with 1:25 experts, it's just the 1:25 amatures that are a problem.

Put it this way, mid pack Experts will be put into advance group at trackdays while mid pack AM's will be put into intermediate group. If a trackday org won't put them together for safety reasons, why should a race org?

With this argument you are saying that a front pack amature (who would ride in Advance group at a track day) should then practice with the experts. Expert and amature together.

I'm not trying to be a dick here, just pointing out that the arguments you present are very idealistic, in an ideal racing org you would show at least the aptitude of a trackday advanced group rider before you coud even ride amature. The reality is that a track day org on any given day has less than 100 riders to police and properly group. A club racing org has 300 or more and there are going to be riders misclassed and the painful truth is that the white plate does not make you faster or safer.

One thing you say has me very curious though, you say that most expert races are not combined in the MA region. How do you get all your races in?

[EX_#76]

you cant practice your own race times (say 1:15) while dodging AM's running 1:25's. It is too dangerous. and even if not, it is pointless to "practice" if you have to slow down 3 times a lap.

This statement is ridiculous.  If you can't figure out how to get around 3 slower riders without loosing allot of time during a lap you need to practice with slower riders and learn how to get through traffic.  The danger factor is mostly in the hands of the overtaking rider.  If you choose to pass in an area where you are putting you and the other rider in danger, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.  Granted that some riders are unpredictable, and there is no positively safe way around them, there are always ways to stack the odds in safety's favor.

[ahastings]

I agree with Dafan. Yes you are still going to have speed diff. when the practices are split , just not as many. I have ridden many different practice groups over the last 4 years on everything from SV 650 to Gsxr 1000 and the only ones that are combined in the Mid-Atlantic are the lightweights, and they are some of the worst practices I have had. Practice is to get up to race speed as quickly as possible, since practice is so limited. Those Am riders that want to practice with experts to get faster, well just move to the expert class. And there is no such thing as sandbagging in the expert class. Even if you are an AMA pro, you still have an expert license, chasing contingency to make a living at club racing is not sandbagging- get a clue, I wish I was fast enough to do that.

[HAWK]

Arnie,

You admit in your post that practice time is limited as it is, if you split the expert and amature rideres into seperate practice then you will reduce everybodys time on the track. There will always be speed diff but that's part of racing, wasn't there a big flap in motogp when one rider recently felt that another ruined his qualifing by getting in his way? This is club racing, you are never going to fix the speed diff no matter what you do, why shorten everyones practice time to seperate ex and am.

[tstruyk]

I'm confused... is the point of the arguement to increase practice time?  Or is it to allow Am to practice with Ex in general? 

GP region gets PLENTY of practice time... thats not a concern to me.  Whats the issue thats trying to be resolved?

Certain AM's want to practice with the Ex's?  Move up 

Everyone wants more practice time... I dont see how combining will increase that safely!  I dont mind AM's on the track with me (heck there's 2-3 a weekend that are faster than me) as long as the track isnt congested!

[tstruyk]

I didn't mean it as any type of disrespect. 
Everyone has their own ideas what sandbagging is (maybe winning, maybe multi years, maybe lots of schools, maybe whatever), some people cry foul, some don't care.  I never really cared, I just wanted to catch the 'next' guy in front of me.
But there always seems to be complaining about fast/sandbaggers in Ams....I always felt it was the same deal in expert.  AMA guys doing club racing, Enduarance teams with years and years of experience and seemingly unlimited funds, Club racers making a good living from bouncing from weekend-to-weekend cleaning up the club races.

Again, no disrespect to anyone, and personally I don't care if someone is sandbagging.  I think it is a non-issue, but I also see it as prevalent in Ex as it is in Am.

gotcha, was just confused... Experts sandbagging... I dont see it that way, but thats why your name is Speedy and mine is Timmay!!  

How's MAM looking for ya?  gonna make it?

[r6_philly]

This statement is ridiculous.  If you can't figure out how to get around 3 slower riders without loosing allot of time during a lap you need to practice with slower riders and learn how to get through traffic.  The danger factor is mostly in the hands of the overtaking rider.  If you choose to pass in an area where you are putting you and the other rider in danger, YOU ARE THE PROBLEM.  Granted that some riders are unpredictable, and there is no positively safe way around them, there are always ways to stack the odds in safety's favor.

It is not rediculous. As a matter of fact I feel that I am uniquely qualified to make that statement. I work at over 50 trackdays a year, and I Am not a CR. I get to ride in all the skill groups as much as I want. and I am one of the most proficient riders in passing safely (and being passed safely).

Yes there are slow experts, but they are very practiced in their lines and habits they are not likely to be erratic or using different lines every lap. Say what you will, it takes laps and time on the track to earn that white plate. And no matter what speed you run what time you turn, you make less mistakes as a white plate because you are more experienced and you can do repetitions better.

So yes I would trust a 1:25 expert 10 x better than I Wuold trust a 1:25 AM on the track. An Amatuer could be turning that 1:25 second day on the track, while an expert running that same 1:25 have been racing for 3 years (and earned lots of points, longer if they are slower)

Don't take offense because you have a yellow plate. I teach a racing school, I evaluate people at trackdays and the experience makes the difference. After all that is WHY there is AM and there is EX right? With enough time you will earn the same sort of respect on the track as the other white plates. I would then be comfortable running with you on the track at whatever pace.

Go look at lap to lap print outs. Experts are more consistent, and if one does a best time of 1:25, they will do 1:25-1:27 every lap. Now look at the typical Amatuer. IF one does a 1:25, more than likely they will be spiking at 1:25 while doing anywhere between 1:26-1:30. Thats because they make more mistakes. Of course there is the exception of the 2 guys that kills half the expert classes. But if they have been racing mx and doing trackdays for 4 years before racing maybe they should be Experts anyway, because well, they are?

Remember Experts and Amatuers are skill levels, NOT sucess levels. you have AM's that are fast enough to win EX races but I don't know if I would trust them the same on the track. If they deserve to be, then they deserve to be experts. But that is not the spirit of the rules. The rules have 2 classes so newcomers can hone their skill and prepare themselves for better, closer competition.


On the other hand, I run AMA races and I get lapped myself. I look forward to my qualifying session where I get to run with the slower half. I don't want to get in the way of the factory guys in practice. I always be mindful of the fast guys and let them  by whenever possible (in the race as well, I actually waved them by). I wish they can split practice as well but there is no time for that, and there are only what, 30 people on track, tops.

If you are interested in the MA schedule, download it from the CCS site. We do combine LW parctices but the MW/HW/UN never. They combine some races but usually don't on busier weekends. And I try not to enter combined races.

Why even have 2 classes of AM/EX if there is no reason to seperate them?

I am the race director for TPM's GP Moto series. While we don't have 15 races per day, I do run 5 races in one afternoon. We don't have EX/AM classes. But I take care in letting people get the point that this is not an expert race and people are here to have fun and not chase a career.

Do you really want the likes of Jensen and Denning to be practicing with blue shirts? If for any reason something does happen and it hurts their living, I will not be able to live with mydecision if I put them together in the same session. It is easy to speculate, but put you in the position to be responsible(and accountable) for people's safety and lives, your opinions may be a little harder to form, I suspect.

[r6_philly]

I would like to point out that it is funny, that when I had a yellow plate I would have sided with all the AM's here.  8)

It was like "I do ok, I pass many experts, why can't I practice with them". I was a top 3 Amatuer.

Now I think differently.

[EX_#76]

The fact still remains that (at least in the LW class) you still have to race with the AMs.  It would be best to know thier habits before you race with them.  You will always need to work your way through traffic safely.  That statement would still be true even if all of the riders on the track were experts.  We are all capable of making mistakes.  I have seen Ex and Ams make big ones

I am not offened because I have yellow plates, your statement is mostly correct, I usuall trust white plated guys more than yellows.  I never stated that you should trust anyone!!  Even some poeple you have raced cleanly on other occasions.  Consistant lap times does not = good riding.  Slow riders that hold a consistant line and do not stand up when you pass them is what other riders need to be safe.

As far as respect goes, I think I have a far amount of respect already.  After reading your statments I am the one who does not want to run close to you because, judging by your statements you are willing to take an unneecessary risk during practice to improve your lap times.

[r6_philly]

I pass more people in one day that most racers pass in an entire year. If you feel that you are not comfortable riding around me then please don't. I don't take any unecessary risk, and I am mildly offended at how you can arrive at such a conclusion. It is not unsusally I can pass 30-40 people within one trackday *session* doing a close to race pace and I do not have people complaining about me and my passing too much. and I have never caused a problem. But thats what trackdays are for. Race day practice has a different purpose, its too short to be practicing your skills, it should be used to "warm up" and get yourself ready to go. If you haven't figure out something by Sat morning practice, you probably are not going to do very well.

People do consistent laptimes because they repeat what they do lap after lap. Slow, fast, doesn't matter. If you can repeat what you do, then it is called consistency and predictability... And predictability is the key here, NOT good riding. If you ride off the racing line but do it lap after lap and hit the same marks and you are just as safe to others as any because after I observe your habbits for 2 corners I can go and make a pass and you will stick to your usual line (as bad as it is). You see, being able to predict what a person will do within a short time is why predictability really is important.

Do you really think that I will ride through traffic and remember what each of the other person would do in practice? What I am going to learn by practicing with peoeple will will likey change their lines and brake markers and make *different* mistakes when the pace goes faster?

As an Expert I think I can say for most experts:

We don't stand to benefit much by having more tracktime but mixed in with Amateurs. You can of course counter that with your theories but the truth remains that you are not Expert and you can't really predict what we could benefit from. And as we Experts have been Am's before, we can say that we understand your point of view and know you can benefit from the Experts and more tracktime. But this is a one way street. I do not want to loose my practice time so you can learn more and get better tracktime. Call me selfish but I paid the same amount.

and again from a Race Organizer point of view, which I feel I deserve, I don't think it would be very safe. The cons outweigh the pro by far.

I hope you would be an Expert one day. But maybe you shouldn't because then you would have to run close to me 

Take me an Arnie for an example, we had some close battle last week at VIR. and it was more fun than anything else for a long time for me. right arnie  But we weren't taking unecessary risks. We raced elbow to elbow, stuffed each other but never put each other in much danger, and I Trusted him and I believe he trusted me. I would not have done that with an Amatuer even if he was blowing my doors off fast.

Riding close and aggressive doesn't equal danger if you can handle what you are doing. I wish you could be on track for a AMA race and see how the top pros are putting lives in each other's hands but rarely make any mistake so it is just as safe as walking down the street side by side. Thats what happens with exprience and skill lever increase... Why do I have to explain this?