Running Experts and Amateurs Together In Practice

[SRobertson]

Jason,

It's all very well and good that Amateurs want to practice with Experts so they can learn faster.  I agreed last year when I was an Amateur.  However, last weekend I was t-boned and blessed with an ankle plate, 10 screws and a broken wrist by an amateur who was competing his first weekend.  He saw me come out of pit lane, apparently forgot to brake for the very fast Jennings T1, target fixated on me and sent me to the moon.

You can guess my vote.

However, I'll see you out there again soon.  Either I'll be back for Homestead, or your fast ass will be Expert next year! 

Scott

[ahastings]

I don't think am and expert should practice together. Having dropped to lightweights this year where the exp and am practices are sometimes combined, I don't like it. Practice is to work on setup and getting up to race pace. You can't do that if you spend the session dodging riders as much as 10-15 seconds a lap slower. Not saying all ams are slow . When I run a combined practice I try to make sure I go out right at the front, by the second lap I am fighting traffic. Combined races are different because by the time we start lapping the slower ams they are usually strung out so you can pick through them.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

In a race Amateurs and Experts are seperated from the start with generally only the faster Amateurs getting up into the Expert field during the race, then later in the race the fastest Experts catch up to the slowest Amateurs who should hopefully be in somewhat of their 'groove' by that time.

A big difference with practice is the fact that everyone would be mixed together from the start, and the whole getting acclimated to race pace for the day generally will happen faster for experienced Experts who can go out and turn fast laps almost immediately.

[PJ]

In general, I don't mind the mixed Am/Ex Lightweight practice sessions in CCS. I choose to go out with that group vs. the Expert-only group. Mostly because I'd rather be the one deciding when to pass vs. having someone else on a much faster bike decide that for me. Yes, slower traffic sometimes makes it difficult to get a clean lap in, but at least I get to see the lines and behavior of some of the racers I'll lap during a race, which can be helpful.

That said, I don't like the combined practice groups used by the TrackAddix CCS GP region. It seemed there were people who self-selected into the fast group that didn't belong there, as well as others who didn't really belong in the medium group. Didn't help matters that I got taken out at Gateway but an over-eager Am on a 600 who highsided right in front of me. That sucked.

[andy908hamblin]

I share the same opinion as PJ, Combined can get hairy, but for amatuers it helps in progression. My bike is legal for LW so I am designated a combined sticker, though I prefer to run in Expert because I am up to speed and traffic really hurts getting a fast lap in. Then again if you need to work on traffic skills combined is helpul.

[HAWK]

Something for the experts to consider is the fact that a seperate practice means that the newer amatures are going to see you for the first time at FULL race pace, I would venture to say that not too many current experts held a smooth line the first few times they were passed as noobs by an expert at full speed. I think that the combined practice leads to a safer day overall. I'm a first year amature but in lightweight class I am able to pass a number of experts in practice and racing so I'm not sure the fast lap argument holds much water. Being as track density is much greater durning practice than would be allowed in a race I don't think anyone in the organization is expecting record laptimes in practice. Further more out of town experts coming in for a special event (solo/team challange etc) will be using practice to find their line on a track they have never seen, they will be trying several different lines throughout practice so if you are expecting that since they are expert they will be consistent and right on the race line then your fast lap may have serious consequences for both riders. Practice is practice, a great time for experts to see who they will be lapping and amatures to see some of the passes they will experience in the race or just to scuff in some new rubber or check out a new gear. I've probably said too much so I'll just be quiet now.

[rwracer]

While I have great sympathy (even empathy) for SRob (and others of similar fate) and sincerely hope he can recover quickly, the Expert whine about Am's doesn't hold any water for me.  All 3 of my "caused by another rider" crashes this year happened when I was t-boned by a so-called "Expert."

Bad riding occurs regardless of plate color, the white plate has no magic attached to it and certainly has no inherent tendency to improves one's skills and IMHO is given out way too easily and often.

The bottom line is that it's racing and riders have to be alert, pay attention (perhaps be somewhat considerate?) at ALL times, not just at race time.

So for me there is no need necessarily to separate Ex's and Am's (unless pure numbers dictate otherwise).  But there is a very real need for riders to get practice time on both/all of their bikes.  That "other" club recognizes and provides that.  CCS currently (in the MA and SE at least) does not.

Just my .02.  flame on.

[ahastings]

just eliminate the am and expert division , then there would be no more sandbagging either. Some of you guys want to practice together lets all race together too. Then contingency could pay top 10 or double to top 5.

[Speedballer347]

just eliminate the am and expert division , then there would be no more sandbagging either. Some of you guys want to practice together lets all race together too. Then contingency could pay top 10 or double to top 5.

There are just as many sandbaggers in expert as amatuer, always will be sandbagging.  And at this point with such a pleathora(sp) of trackdays/raceschools, a level playing field has become so murky and convoluted(sp).....I think it is an impossiblity anymore.

Personally I never go fast in practice, just practice hitting my lines....so am/ex issues really don't affect me.  The hot-lap is where I start to get my game on.
I can see problems for experts who go fast in practice though.  I also agree with the sentiment that for the most part experts are smoother and more predictable.  Ex and Am's both make mistakes, but I think through lack of experience, Am's do it more consistantly.

One thing I have noticed is that to me, it seems that some of the Am's are overly aggressive with being overtaken.  You are not even racing with them, but they will kill themselves to keep you behind when you are showing them a wheel to get by.  Almost have to rudely stuff the sometimes.  Maybe not, just seems like it to me.  No biggie.

[tstruyk]

I was suprised to see the results... I assumed everyone was for seprate practice sessions.

I am for keeping them split.. or if combined.. keep the numbers down!  I think thats why the GP series has worked for me, the numbers have been low enough that there isnt much congestion on the track.  at least I didnt struggle with it.  That and there is SO much practice time on saturday that hurrying to get up to speed and get work done is not necessary

My concern is the 4-5 laps you get in a typical MW session is VERY little time to really get anything done other than warm up.  Its hard to get to speed where setup changes need to be made... cruising around passing slower riders isnt condusive to what I need to practice for.  There are 2nd and 3rd year AM's that can defiantely (and do definately) run with some of the experts.  If the complaints are coming from them... disregard em.  They should be running Ex anyway.  talk to the first year Am's... I know I sure as hell had ZERO desire to be practicing with experts last year.  There where plenty of faster AM's that I could hook up with and learn a thing or 2 from.


I think it was Dafan that said it... its not about speed, but predictability.  I survived the meatgrinder MW AM races last year, no desire to get back into that mix even for practice for the reasons that baller mentioned.

Speedballer, your both slow and unpredictable, you need your own practice session!!      

but you mentioned expert sandbagging... that confuses me... I dont see how an expert can sandbag??

[Gixxerblade]

I don't mind running with Am's. Heck a lot are faster than me anyway.

[Speedballer347]

but you mentioned expert sandbagging... that confuses me... I dont see how an expert can sandbag??

I didn't mean it as any type of disrespect. 
Everyone has their own ideas what sandbagging is (maybe winning, maybe multi years, maybe lots of schools, maybe whatever), some people cry foul, some don't care.  I never really cared, I just wanted to catch the 'next' guy in front of me.
But there always seems to be complaining about fast/sandbaggers in Ams....I always felt it was the same deal in expert.  AMA guys doing club racing, Enduarance teams with years and years of experience and seemingly unlimited funds, Club racers making a good living from bouncing from weekend-to-weekend cleaning up the club races.

Again, no disrespect to anyone, and personally I don't care if someone is sandbagging.  I think it is a non-issue, but I also see it as prevalent in Ex as it is in Am.