Ducati 749, 748, and XBRR in Thunderbike Classes

[surber905]

Why is the Ducati 749 excluded from the Thunderbike Classes?  I watched a couple Buell XBRR's out there racing.  The rulebook states you can run a 748, but not the replacement model 749.  Ducati North America will not pay any contingency on a 748 since the last model made was in 2003.  Lets compare the three models.

                            XBRR                                         Ducati 749                      Ducati 748

CC's                     1339                                         748                                 748
Bore/Stroke (MM) 103.6 X 79.4                             90.0 X 58.8                     88.0 X 61.5
Compression       12.5 to 1                                   11.7 to 1                         11.5 to 1
Horsepower         150+ Peak                                106.61                            97
Weight                 362 LBS.                                    414.5                             432.1

As you can tell there is little if any advantage with a 749 over the 748, but no where close to what a XBRR is putting out.

[EX_#76]

The XBRR should be illegal in ASRA Tbike unless ARSA has made an exception as stated in 6.11.1
Here is what the rule book states:

6.11 THUNDERBIKE - Thunderbike machines, except single cylinder machines, are based
upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers in North America for
street use. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the motorcycle. Single
cylinder machines are exempt from production and street use requirements. Single cylinder
2 stroke GP road race machines are not allowed in this class. All machines must have
unaltered VIN numbers.
NOTE: Ducati 749 Series machines are excluded from this class.
6.11.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for street use in
North America via normal commercial channels may be approved on an individual
basis. ASRA will maintain a list of non-standard approved models and that
list will be available at each event from the Race Director/Referee.
A. ASRA reserves the right to re-factor machines at any time. ASRA will notify
current licensees 30 days prior to any change. Changes will take effect 30 days
from the original date of notification.

[surber905]

You are correct, I kick myself in the nutz , I watched the xb-12r not the RR.  Sorry about that Buell guys.    But, I still think if CCS would update the rules to include the 749, you might have more participation from the Ducati's, because we can then run for contingency money.  With Ducati pulling out of the AMA what are they doing with that money anyway???  Kicking it to higher contingency, bigger money races for the regional/national series like CCS/ASRA?  Is Buell the only one paying contingency to there amateurs?

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Yep looks like Buell is the only one who pays for am.

No need for a 749 (or even a 748) in Tbike. Thunderbike is mainly lightweights (SV650, XB9/12R, Hawks...) and older 600 I4's.

[EX_#76]

The rules do not make good sense to me.  It should not matter if you have a 748 or 749 in ASRA your bike has to meet the 4Lbs per HP rule.

[N8Kern]

They should be allowed whenit comes to the 4 to 1 ratio.  Just does not take as much money to make them go good.

n8!

[jarelj]

I'd race my 749 in Thunderbike if it was allowed instead of riding my lightweight bike in that class.  As it stands now, there's really no suitable class for the 749 except SuperTwins on some shorter tracks where the liter-class twins can't pull away.  It's not competitive in any of the Middleweight classes (Expert class - where the bike matters more than in Amateur), especially now that the 600's have gone to stratospheric horsepower levels, so that's no good.  What's left?  It's like the black sheep bike, a great bike that is fun to ride with superb handling, but not enough power to really compete in the class it's forced into.  I say let the 749 in Thunderbike! 

[Super Dave]

600's still win 1000cc races in CCS.  The difference in HP is greater there.  I think it still is about set up.

I would agree with Nate that I don't think that the liquid cooled Ducati's should be in T-bike.  Right now, it's a very, very cool class.  My crank should be coming for my H1 soon.   Long wait.

[EX_#76]

600's still win 1000cc races in CCS.  The difference in HP is greater there.  I think it still is about set up.

I would agree with Nate that I don't think that the liquid cooled Ducati's should be in T-bike.  Right now, it's a very, very cool class.  My crank should be coming for my H1 soon.   Long wait.

748s are liquid cooled and they are legal for Tbike now. 

[Super Dave]

CCS or both CCS and ASRA?

[EX_#76]

CCS or both CCS and ASRA?

748 is ok for both CCS and ASRA.  749 is not legal for either

[jarelj]

748 is ok for both CCS and ASRA.  749 is not legal for either

That's what makes no sense to me, the 749 is only marginally quicker than the 748 in street trim and in race trim it's pretty much a wash, so how did it ever come to be specifically excluded from the class in the first place?  Especially now that the 749 is being discontinued for 2007, it seems like it would be a good fit in Thunderbike. 

[Gixxerblade]

I think 749's are prettier than BMW's and so BMW's should be excluded. ;)

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Maybe they should make Thunderbike have a rule that states all bikes must be at least 5 yrs old.

[CCS]

The 749 is legal in ASRA, not CCS......in 2007 the XBRR will be removed from CCS Thunderbike until/unless a change is made by Buell to mechanically limit the power output....(150 claimed is a far cry from the 110-115 we test the current XB9/XB12)

[EX_#76]

The 749 is legal in ASRA, not CCS......in 2007 the XBRR will be removed from CCS Thunderbike until/unless a change is made by Buell to mechanically limit the power output....(150 claimed is a far cry from the 110-115 we test the current XB9/XB12)

Kevin,
   Is there somewhere this information is posted?  The information form the rulebook linked to the CCS website is pasted below. It states that 749 is excluded in CCS and ASRA.  Is this not the latest version of the rule book?


CCS
6.5 THUNDERBIKE - Thunderbike machines, except single cylinder machines, are based
upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers in North America for
street use. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the motorcycle. Single
cylinder machines are exempt from production and street use requirements. Single cylinder
2 stroke GP road race machines are not allowed in this class. All machines must have
unaltered VIN numbers.
NOTE: Ducati 749 Series machines are excluded from this class.
6.5.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for street use in
North America via normal commercial channels may be approved on an individual
basis. CCS will maintain a list of non-standard approved models and that
list will be available at each event from the Race Director/Referee.
A. CCS reserves the right to re-factor machines at any time. CCS will notify
current licensees 30 days prior to any change. Changes will take effect 30 days
from the original date of notification.
6.5.2. All machines must meet the equipment standards of Section 5, as well as the
following:




ASRA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES CLASSES – ASRA Series machines are classified for
competition in the following classes: SPORTBIKE, SUPERBIKE, THUNDERBIKE, AND
TEAM CHALLENGE.

6.11 THUNDERBIKE - Thunderbike machines, except single cylinder machines, are based
upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers in North America for
street use. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the motorcycle. Single
cylinder machines are exempt from production and street use requirements. Single cylinder
2 stroke GP road race machines are not allowed in this class. All machines must have
unaltered VIN numbers.
NOTE: Ducati 749 Series machines are excluded from this class.

[Ducati23]

Kevin & Guy,

The 749 series should be allowed in CCS Thunderbike just as the 748 is.  It is no longer being produced by Ducati for 2007. The 749  isn't any faster than the Buell XB12 machines. The 749 has no other class to race where it is competitive. 

XBRR's are a joke, they should not be legal in Thunderbike. It's as close to a HD powered GP bike as it can get.


Clayton
#23Ex GP

[EX_#76]

Kevin & Guy,

The 749 series should be allowed in CCS Thunderbike just as the 748 is.  It is no longer being produced by Ducati for 2007. The 749  isn't any faster than the Buell XB12 machines. The 749 has no other class to race where it is competitive. 

XBRR's are a joke, they should not be legal in Thunderbike. It's as close to a HD powered GP bike as it can get.


Clayton
#23Ex GP

I think the 749 should be allowed in CCS and ASRA thunder bike.  The XBRR should not.  Here is the ASRA opening sentence from the rule book:

6.11 THUNDERBIKE - Thunderbike machines, except single cylinder machines, are based
upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers in North America for
street use.

The XBRR is a purpose built race bike, It says so on it's own frame.

[tshort]

interesting thread.  Gotta laugh, tho - bunch a people whining about a Harley being too FAST.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

XBRR's are a joke, they should not be legal in Thunderbike. It's as close to a HD powered GP bike as it can get.

Kevin already said in another post the XBRR wont be in thunderbike next year. And really how many do you think you'll ever see in privateer hands anyways?

BTW I think Thunderbike should go back to Heavyweight Sportsman rules that Thunderbike was created from. Would eliminate anything newer than 6yrs old then.

[moto dino]

at roc there was an xb12rr entered in asra t-bike ridden by an amateur i believe. brief conversations coming off dyno he said he got it restricted down to legal hp. i personally don't think this is the answer to try and win this class. i believe that danny & myself have proven that a finely preparred and tuned xb12r can do the job just fine. after all in ccs t-bike he did beat mertens & parriot. should a 749 be legal? not sure, matt carr did just fine on his 748 last year.

[Ducati23]

Kevin has decided that the 749 can't race Thunderbike at least that's what the latest news letter indicates. So 749 guys are screwed again for another year.  I suppose the 1098 won't be legal in supertwins either...  The way things are going for non harley twin riders pretty soon this will be WERA not CCS.  Not everyone wants to ride a 600 or 1000 I4. 

[Super Dave]

Two stroke rule, Tom.

[Ducati23]

  No two smokes anymore...

I just wish Kevin would allow the Ducati 749's to run in classes where they'd be competitive. There is no way a <legal> 749 can run middleweight and have any chance against the current 600's.  Consessions are made for the Harleys, why not the Ducati's?  ::)

Even the AMA is allowing the 749 to be over bored to 850cc in an effert to allow it to run with the 600's in the FX class.  Ducati isn't making the 749 anymore and Ducati announced the 2008 replacement will be the new 848, based on the 1098.   

tOm

[Super Dave]

I dunno...

I thought letting a liquid cooled 750 in a 600 class was a concession.

And, as someone brought up before, maybe the manufacturer needs to change their game.

[Super Dave]

tOm

:)

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

I dunno...And, as someone brought up before, maybe the manufacturer needs to change their game.

+1. Honda quit racing the RC51 because it ended up being pushed out. Suzuki did the same with the TLR because it just couldnt be to competative.

[Super Dave]

Honda quit racing the CBR600RR in AMA Supersport too.