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light weight legal bike?

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Brad

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2006, 05:37:10 pm »
Quote from: Super Dave on August 18, 2006, 10:07:40 pm
Well, the BMW doesn't make the power of a recent production 600 and doesn't it weigh about 150 pounds more than a 600?

And is there one rider that is capable of riding a BMW well?  Or is it just "the bike"...

Given what I know, it's a LW bike.  SV650's were faster than EX500's.  Wasn't a reason to make them middleweights.

I would say that 101hp(post qualifying on the Factory Pro dyno at Barber) is right in the league of the fast 600's. The BMW probably has 25+ lb/ft torque advantage though over a 600. According to BMW's site the new 1200 is 20+ lbs lighter than the "old" bike. That would make the new one in the 425# range judging by previous RRW published T-Bike results. That makes it 65-70# heavier than 600's, far from 150. Basically the same numbers as my old SV1000...Its been stressed many times how "stock" these boxers are, so one would think building to the extent of the rulebook(even SS) would bring huge numbers..Its already gifted around 25-35hp on most other SS built LW bikes. I would take that advantage any day of the week.....In fact I heard(at Barber) "I don't understand why they let that bike in those classes" come from someone ~very~ qualified on the performance abilities of the 1200. So "Lightweight" isn't alone in his thoughts.

 Riding a SS bike up into sbk/gp/tbike and complaining others are too fast isn't justifiable to me. However SS versus SS, I see it differently. I don't think it belongs in SS. Indexing "big" SS spec bikes into sbk/gp is what makes more sense.
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HAWK

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2006, 06:37:28 pm »
The complaint is that a brand new bike has a power advantage over the current LW bikes, right? The SV has been on the scene for what 7 years now? shortly after it was introduced there were some rule changes (airbox) that really only applied to it since it had about a 20 HP advantage over the then current LW "leaders". Now 7 years later the "new" bike has a 20 HP advantage over the current LW "leaders". If the advantage is real then expect to see a grid full of BMW's, if not then we'll continue to see a grid full of SV's. Time marches on and technology continues to improve, the "fast" bike in each class will continue to evolve and if winning is the only way you can have fun then you will need to buy the new fastest bike every year. I may be very new to this sport but I'm have an absolute blast running an 89 hawk in GT Lights, no I can't keep up with a well ridden SV or Buell but just how much money can you win in the lightweight classes at a CCS race?
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Paul Onley
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N8Kern

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2006, 06:49:01 pm »
  I have heard and read a bit over the this season.  Of course I can see where people are coming from, to an extent.  there are many differ. agendas here.  One being "Im used to spanking people on my DUC1000 and who's this guy... two, regardless of it weighing in at 444lbs. post race the fact of the matter is it has a 58.5 inch wheelbase.  true comprehension of riding boils down to wheelbase.  that is more of a deficit than power or weight.  any BMW dealer will give anyone a demo ride oportunity on their R1200S.  I rode a duc1000 two valver, stock, sv, built to the gills sv, and a factory Buell over the off season.  if your complaining about my lap times now... lol

The powers that be need to be given more credit for thier decisions.  We are thankful to even have a series and not have to run elsewhere.  A rider should not be persecuted for  experience or ability.  If this paid your bills and or cut inot your lively hood then tehre is another can o' worms here.  I feel kinda awkward even posting this, anyone who knows me has never even heard me talk in this fashion.  I am going to finish what I have started this season and push for even more development of this great bike.  Dont be surprised if there are one or 2 BMW's next season besides me.  I may be moving in another direction in my career which you wont see me in theLW class, but there will be others that enjoy the machine and have a place to run.  It is an easy bike to ride, just challenging to go fast on.  can you say that about your own purpose built bike?!

Ed Key a well respected rider and countless others that get it done on SV's, Buell's, and Duc's have all been for a diverse class.  A couple of them have ridden my bike, maybe I can get them on here to tell you what they told me.

N8!

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PJ721

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2006, 07:25:06 pm »
well said N8!  :cheers:
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Paul Castiglia
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badmonkey

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2006, 07:27:14 pm »
I raced next to, in front of once or twice and behind more then i care to rember N8. Guys its not the bike . MY superbike sv was faster in a straight line then his beemer and weighed 330 lbs. IT's the racer , trust me you dont want him racing an sv or a buell. Give the rider some props , just cause he's gone before you see what he's doing doesn't mean it's all bike. Oh by the way N8 i got an 05 sv and will be chasing you at summit in 3 weeks...
Ray
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Brad

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2006, 08:28:12 pm »
Quote from: N8Kern on August 21, 2006, 06:49:01 pm
  there are many differ. agendas here.  One being "Im used to spanking people on my DUC1000 and who's this guy... N8!



Wow! Seems like you are taking a presentation of a more accurate answer to a simple question a bit too personally. I would take the above personally because I'm pretty sure it pertains to me. Since I was the only Duc1000 guy at BMP, I can assure you there is no agenda here. When I race CCS its typically only T-bike and I know the rule structure I'm up against-thats Sbk's. My 1000 is raced primarily in WERA which allows it in LWT SBK and F2(lwgp equal) in supersport form...I feel that it has no business in LWT SS and wouldn't run it there even though it's legal in CCS and was considered for WERA. I wouldn't get much satisfaction beating "supersport built" bikes with 10+ hp advantage out of a bone stock machine. If someone can't get comparable hp from a SV, built to run Sbk classes, they aren't even trying and are merely bumping up a class. The reason the Duc SS is allowed in the WERA classes is partially the Buell and yes, your original 1100 being allowed in 2003...I raced an SV650 then and raced against you then so "who's this guy?" doesn't really work...Its obvious the program has come along way. I applaud your efforts in that, by the way.

Scanning through old posts on the matter, the current bike seems to have picked up 20 or more hp and lost 65 lbs over the original Boxer Cup bike. Maybe thats what the "whiners" are concerned with. Nothing else in the current classes has evolved quite like this machine. It appears to have outgrown the class, supersport in particular. Seems to be a perfect fit in the more open gp/tbike/supertwin classes though.

Personally, I have exactly zero desire to ride a bike like that on a track, so I will have to take your word on how extremely difficult it is to ride that bike that hard and that fast. I assume you got all of the suspension issues cleared up that you told me about when dropping by my pit on Friday? It looked like it was railin' Sunday morning, mid corner at least! The exits were quite exciting to watch! That shaft really winds that thing in a knot!!
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PJ721

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2006, 09:37:34 pm »
kinda hard for him not to take it personally...BMW + CCS MA & SE regions = N8Kern....

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Paul Castiglia
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Brad

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2006, 10:19:08 pm »
Quote from: PJ721 on August 21, 2006, 09:37:34 pm
kinda hard for him not to take it personally...BMW + CCS MA & SE regions = N8Kern....


True. Myself being involved in the thread and getting "called out"(as the Duc1000 guy with an agenda) struck me as a reaction of me "attacking" which is not what I was doing. Merely stating more accurate facts. The original question posed by "lightweight" the thread starter, was basically "Does anyone agree that -several- bikes do not fit the class?"..I can assure you that alot of folks feel the way he/she does, it's just that anyone that doesn't follow the majority fanfare is labeled a whiner...Honest question here..Is there another LWSS bike that matches HP of the ASRA T-bike Buell's of Estok, Bilansky, etc? Yes weight matters, but so does hp. More so when your talking 30-40% more.
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SVbadguy

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2006, 10:26:01 pm »
Has anybody looked at the MOTO-ST rules, specifically the class eligibilities.   Seems that Colin Fraser, Steve McLaughlin, Don Emde, Roger Edmondson, Kevin Cameron, John Ulrich  and some car guys came to some different conclusions as to how some 'lightweight' bikes should be classified.

That series is looking very tempting with my SV so long as I could get a little more backing.  Otherwise I'll probably just give 600s a try next year. 

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Super Dave

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2006, 10:22:39 am »
Quote from: Brad on August 21, 2006, 10:19:08 pm
Honest question here..Is there another LWSS bike that matches HP of the ASRA T-bike Buell's of Estok, Bilansky, etc? Yes weight matters, but so does hp. More so when your talking 30-40% more.
I'm not sure what you're looking for here...

Thunderbike isn't Supersport.  It's a National Championship class with a very specific horsepowere to weight ratio. 

A Supersport BMW isn't going to be like the BMW Nate rides, is it? 

As for 30 to 40% more HP?  From stock to Thunderbike?  I don't get the question.  Or are we talking about the difference between bikes?  A good SV in Supersport trim is going to be 70+HP...and yeah, there is a difference in weight.  Does it matter? 
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Super Dave
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PJ721

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2006, 10:39:06 am »
and N8 can give more info on this - but he DOES have more than 1 bike....3 or 4 I believe and runs them in different LTWT classses....
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Paul Castiglia
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N8Kern

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Re: light weight legal bike?
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2006, 10:52:46 am »
My BMW's now have an exhaust system.  STill have ABS and heated grips though.  lol

The biggest difference again is the wheelbase,once you learn how to deal with it then its on par, but 5 inches longer is something that has taken me 3 seasons to learn effieciently.  There are like 4 guys in Canada running R1200S regionally, they are talking about coming down a bit next season.  They all are good riders, but new to the bike, so if you beat them would you feel better?!

This bike is about focus.  on the gas the motor lifts and does not drga the heads as bad, off the gas it drags bad, the motor drops (heads).  It forces you to be on the gas. which in return helps you with mid corner speed and exits.  Its a great training tool. you should try one.  I dont know to many dealers that wouldnt help with a bike...

N8!
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