Something to bring up at the next rider's meeting

Started by Jeff, July 05, 2006, 09:07:08 AM

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Burt Munro

MRA racer Gene Bazyl passed away yesterday,  the second fatality from the Track Day incident noted above.....

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=26367

RIP Gene

The number of Track Day deaths concerns me a great deal.

Rick
Founding member of the 10,000+ smite club.  Ask me how you can join!

Super Dave

I think it's going to continue to rise to a level where he insurance issue blows most of the organizations out of the water...or the cost of a track day goes up to decrease ridership...or even the insurance issue forces tracks to bring the track days in house and more restricted.
Super Dave

K3 Chris Onwiler

You know, it's not a joke.  Our toys are dangerous.  They function almost perfectly, but are piloted by humans.  It's a real tragedy that these folks died. 
Lightweight racers can appreciate how scary a trackday can be, because they practice EX/AM combined.  It takes a while to figure out what you're doing on a racetrack, and the other riders aren't going to wait around while you learn.  In that sense, I feel that trackdays make racing safer, because these days we weed out the Darwin Award winners before they get a race license.
I had a student this weekend who was a real Darwin candidate.  He was riding a litterbike, he showed up late and missed the first two classes, wouldn't take instruction or even attempt to practice the drills we were teaching.  The guy kept begging to go faster.

"When can I go Intermediate?"
"When you learn how to brake and corner effectively."
"But I can keep up with you now."
"You can keep up with me because I'm riding at 50%, turned backwards in the saddle watching you!"
"But I can keep up!"
"Have you dragged a knee yet?"
"No."
"So then you aren't quite done learning what we can teach you in Novice, right?"
"But I'm fast!"
"You can't run any corner on this track the same way twice.  You bullied your way to the front of the group, and you're holding them all back in the corners.  Then you pull the trigger on that thousand, and rocket up to where I'm idling down the straight, waiting for you to catch up!"
"But I'm faster than any of the other students!"
"Only in a straight line!"
"Can I ride with a different coach?"

An hour later, that litterbike was broken in half.  The guy fortunately walked away.  I've no doubt that having tried trackdays and found them too restrictive, the guy will soon be buying another bike and entering a race near you.  Let's hope he doesn't asspack Brewer....
The frame was snapped, the #3 rod was dangling from a hole in the cases, and what was left had been consumed by fire.  I said, "Hey, we've got all night!"
Read HIGHSIDE! @ http://www.chrisonwiler.com

spyderchick

#15
I am now going to get on a soapbox and make many enemies.  :preachon: Later these people may or may not thank me.

No one who has never turned a lap on the track has any business at all on a modern litre bike at a track day. No one. There have been three track day deaths this year. I know that at least one of them was riding a litre bike. Every track day organizer I've worked with has safety at the forefront of their program. However, as Chris said, this does not weed out the Darwin Award candidates. It doesn't in racing either, but there's an "understood" tighter structure. Not to mention that experts can and will bitch to the right people until the "issue" is dealt with.

I understand that as a business, track day organizers cannot turn away guys on litre bikes, it would be financial suicide. So here's my not-so-perfect idea.

If you show up with a litre bike and you are not known as an experienced rider by the coaches and staff, you ride Beginner. Exception: Expert licence with CCS ASRA WERA, etc. If you have an AM/Novice licence, you ride beginner. (this is the "maiking enemies" part) Why penalize everyone? Because people DIE. Period. So a vetting proccess is necessary. After an evaluation session, these riders can get placed properly. K3s newbie would never make it out of begginer until he gets an attitude adjustment. Guys who can ride should have no problem moving up to the next levels offerd by the track day for the rest of the day(s).

Yes, guys can get killed on  smaller displacement machines, but the attitude of some riders about litre bikes is the issue, and you need to weed out the guys with a chip on their shoulder.

For example, the modern 600 behaves more like a 750 or 1000 of 10 or so years ago, with better technology in the frame suspension and tires. Litre bikes are like souped superbikes of a decade ago, again with all of the advances thrown in. These are the kind of machines that only world class racers could get their hands on "way back". Now you have green novices who hold an probationary operators permit that's still wet able to purchase one of these monsters. Then they decide they want to "learn" during a trackday, but close their minds to the possibility of actually absorbing some of what good experienced riders want to teach them.

The other class of Litre madness is the mid-life crisis guys. These guys tend to buy the most high powered bike they can afford, most likey the Hyabusa. :rollseyes: We all know how appropriate that 1300cc monster is for the street or the track. Mind you, these are the guys who rode Honda CL350s in highschool and college. No clue.

So yeah, I think the process of weeding out potential problems this way allows trackday orgs to control a potential problem while still allowing the patron a little bit of glory. And hopefully, it also gives them an additional opportunity to educate those that wish to learn. Let's face it, bikes are just about one of the biggest pleasures we know of, let's spread the love while keeping 'em safe and in one piece.
Alexa Krueger
Spyder Leatherworks
414.327.0967
www.spyderleatherworks.com
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Do or do not, there is no "try".

K3 Chris Onwiler

Well, this guy made it out of novice in the crash truck.  We never would have promoted him to intermediate.  Litterbikes (because their parts usually wind up littering an impact zone....) are fine in careful hands.  I've had students with one year of riding experience and the Mid Lifers with the new toy come through my classes, and we've taught many of them to ride quickly and safely.  Some have gone on to race as well.  If the rider shows up with a dose of respect and a willingness to learn, their new litterbike probably won't spit them off.  It's the Kamakazi pilots that really scare me.
The frame was snapped, the #3 rod was dangling from a hole in the cases, and what was left had been consumed by fire.  I said, "Hey, we've got all night!"
Read HIGHSIDE! @ http://www.chrisonwiler.com

spyderchick

Yeah, but you and I both know that starting on something a little more managable is a better learning tool. Sometimes common sense is the scarcest when it's needed most.  :ahhh: ::)
Alexa Krueger
Spyder Leatherworks
414.327.0967
www.spyderleatherworks.com
www.redflagfund.org
Do or do not, there is no "try".

Woofentino Pugrossi

Quote from: spyderchick on July 17, 2006, 09:29:46 AM
No one who has never turned a lap on the track has any business at all on a modern litre bike at a track day. No one. There have been three track day deaths this year. I know that at least one of them was riding a litre bike. Every track day organizer I've worked with has safety at the forefront of their program. However, as Chris said, this does not weed out the Darwin Award candidates. It doesn't in racing either, but there's an "understood" tighter structure. Not to mention that experts can and will bitch to the right people until the "issue" is dealt with.

I understand that as a business, track day organizers cannot turn away guys on litre bikes, it would be financial suicide. So here's my not-so-perfect idea.

If you show up with a litre bike and you are not known as an experienced rider by the coaches and staff, you ride Beginner. Exception: Expert licence with CCS ASRA WERA, etc. If you have an AM/Novice licence, you ride beginner. (this is the "maiking enemies" part) Why penalize everyone? Because people DIE. Period.

Not that I dont agree with ya Alexa, but trackdays are full of STREET BIKES, not racebikes. They use what they own for street riding normally. Not everyone can afford a streetbike and a track only bike.

As for putting am/novice race licesne holders in beginners, well intermediate would be better. expert license holders should be able to start in advance groups.

More than likely the goofball Chris dealt with probably bought that litterbike (that is just a great word:biggrin:) for his first bike. The kd crashing at the track may have been the best thing for the kid since he probably would had done that on the street sooner or later and bought it there.

Personally I wish I had found a GS500, Ex500 or FZR400 when I started racing instead of the F2. Wanted a lightweight bike, but the F2 was a deal that was too good to pass on.
Rob
CCS MW#14 EX, ASRA #141
CCSForums Cornerworking and Classifieds Mod

Jeff

In GTO at BHF on Saturday, I watched an AM on a relatively new 1000 crash 3 times (that I saw) and re-enter the race...  Shouldn't we have a 'strike' system?

There was a waving flag as I approached T1.  I round T1 to see the cloud of dust as this person re-entered the track, only to blow the bus-stop and go off and fall down there too...  The next time I lapped him/her (2 laps later I think?) s/he was laying down in T6...
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Woofentino Pugrossi

If its the bike I'm thinking you are referring to, yeah he should had been pulled. It looked like the heat was seriously affecting him. Problem with a 'strike system' is a rider could had been forced off and the corner didnt see the force off part. Being forced off should count as a 'strike'.
Rob
CCS MW#14 EX, ASRA #141
CCSForums Cornerworking and Classifieds Mod

Burt Munro

Very good points Alexa and Chris.  

Seems like every time I've riden with a local group that likes to find country roads that are fun to ride fast, I've had a guy say to me that  he'd be able to keep up with the leaders if he was on a 1000 instead of a 600.   He can't understand that the only place he's losing the pace is on the corners!

Although people buy liter bikes for a variety of reasons, there looks to be a large number who show up at tracks with a "Pit Bull" mentality - the only good dog (bike) is the one that can rip your arm off on command and gets lots of oohs and ahhs in the process.  The dog (bike) may be a complete pussy cat, but you just know in the back of your mind that he's capable of going from 0 - 100 in an instant.

I still keep thinking about the guy that I was standing next to at the gate at Gingerman last July.  He had ridden his shiny new, street stock R-1 to the track to do the Learning Curves race school.  I joked with him that he was taking a big chance riding his bike to the track instead of trailering it.  He flat out told me not to worry, he'd be riding it home.  I laughed and reminded him that he didn't have control over the other riders who may be in over their heads.

From the first laps that the school got on the track calls starting coming in from the various corners about the guy on shiny new R-1.  "Make sure the instructors know this guy is an accident waiting to happen."  We got the word to Brian and the guy seemed to understand for the next couple of track sessions.

Now were down to the school's mock race.   Shiny R-1 boy immediately proves he has forgotten anything he learned in the school.  The vision of that $5000 purse that Learning Curves offers to the winner of the mock race was too tempting.  What?  You're kidding me....  there isn't a big prize to the winner?  I know SOMEBODY told this kid there was money to be won!

Within 3 laps he had overcooked turn 1 and cartwheeled his bike to turn 2.  No race license.  Luckily no serious injuries.  A now totalled, once shiny new  R-1.  No way to get home, 60 miles away.

Maybe we should let Darwin has his way and allow the gene pool to be cleansed of these mutants!
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Burt Munro

Quote from: Jeff on July 17, 2006, 02:14:20 PM
In GTO at BHF on Saturday, I watched an AM on a relatively new 1000 crash 3 times (that I saw) and re-enter the race...  Shouldn't we have a 'strike' system?

There was a waving flag as I approached T1.  I round T1 to see the cloud of dust as this person re-entered the track, only to blow the bus-stop and go off and fall down there too...  The next time I lapped him/her (2 laps later I think?) s/he was laying down in T6...

Jeff,

I talked to the guy as he was pulling off the track at Hot Pit.  Told him it was probably better that he voluntarily pulled off because he was going to be black flagged anyway.   Not sure if it's true, but I heard that Dave in Control was afraid he didn't have enough log sheets to keep track of the guy's incidents!
Founding member of the 10,000+ smite club.  Ask me how you can join!

spyderchick

Quote from: Woofentino Pugrossi on July 17, 2006, 02:04:33 PM
Not that I dont agree with ya Alexa, but trackdays are full of STREET BIKES, not racebikes. They use what they own for street riding normally. Not everyone can afford a streetbike and a track only bike.

As for putting am/novice race licesne holders in beginners, well intermediate would be better. expert license holders should be able to start in advance groups.

Well, they can bring their litre street bike, just understand that this is not a toy to be played with in inexperienced hands. So the vetting process would be to make sure they ride where they belong.

And as for amateur racers, they can go to Learning Curves or another school, get their race license and never have turned a lap in a race situation. So you could potentially wind up with this scenario:
* Rider who goes and buys a litre bike
* Rides it on the street for a few months
* Decides that to be cool they wants to race
* Goes to a licensing clinic, never races
* Obtains race license
* Signs up for track day, want to be ut in advanced based on said license
* Chaos insues

Most track day organizers need to perserve their business by being proactive when potential problems arise. Escalating costs, both with the track and insurance companies could potentially ruin a business if there are too many negative incidents. Then it's happened in the past where the media gets a hold of info (generally incorrect info), and runs one of their famous "witch hunt" stories during sweeps week and you have a track losing business and community support.

So a few riders are inconvenienced by a rule. Life sucks because we have rules. 

Burt saw your post as I was writing this, there is a classic case in point. As much as we'd like Darwin to have his way, I'd rather they learn at some point from us expereinced folk and live to spread the gospel, and bring their friends to join the sport. However, that might be too pie-in-the-sky. Darwin Award winners will continue to stalk our sport unless we can intervene.
Alexa Krueger
Spyder Leatherworks
414.327.0967
www.spyderleatherworks.com
www.redflagfund.org
Do or do not, there is no "try".