Truck in the race line Turn 12

[cbr806]

MWSS Race Sunday

It is inconceivable to me  ??? that we ran a whole race with a truck on the race track  :o, on the corner exit  :o, in the race line  :o, that could not be seen until you enter the corner :o, in the exact spot you'd crash if you had any problem  :o.  Don't even say it was it was to protect the rider that was down over against the wall.  The truck could have done that 20 yards off the track.  It is insane to endanger 40 other riders like that.  That was a red flag situation.  If anyone would have lost it in t12 it would have very likely resulted in death.

I know it was an RA truck, but I think the corner worker should have instantly ordered that truck moved or thrown the red flag.  I think the only reason the red flag didn't fly was because we had already had one in hte race.

[tstruyk]

yeah I heard about that... I'd be interested to hear why that went down...

On a personal note, we had a corner worker direct us to a position on the track that couldnt get a crash truck pick up until a red flag or the end of the race in the TC (mechanical issue, easy fix).  99 of 100 times Cw's are on the money!  Just a little misdirection put us out of the race  :-/  Any situation BUT the TC and it would have been a non issue, kinda frutrating to sit and watch a 2 hour race (this happend lap one in turn 8) from the bend and hot pit wall... plus... no lap completed = no points

I think ole Rob summed it up best... "thats racing".  I'm not one to bitch and moan too much when shit dont got my way... just planting a seed so maybe next time the CW will have a spot planned out during a longer duration race that might allow the team to get back on the track.

Like I said, any situation other than the TC and its a non issue and we where directed to safe place.  As always, big thanks to the CW's!  We literally couldnt do this without ya!

Timmay

btw, Nice to meet ya Charlie!

[Suzy]

I understand your frustration, but I was not directed by control to move the truck. Was only told to keep waving my flag, that's it. If control thought the truck should have been moved, they would have informed me, or the truck themselves or told my other cornerworker in the catcher mit to have them move it. I was not watching everything behind me, I was waving the flags at the bikes coming at me.

[tstruyk]

I understand your frustration, but I was not directed by control to move the truck. Was only told to keep waving my flag, that's it. If control thought the truck should have been moved, they would have informed me, or the truck themselves or told my other cornerworker in the catcher mit to have them move it. I was not watching everything behind me, I was waving the flags at the bikes coming at me.

I dont think anyone is blaming... just asking why.   You have a job to do, and you do what your told!  How upset would people be if you randomly decided to make decisions without control?

hey Suzy... out of curiosity where you the only person at 12?  Was it maybe a concern that if you left your station to get the truck moved (or turned your attention to the truck vs the track) that it could have been more dangerous for  the oncoming racers?  Sounds like it was a tough situation that maybe needed another set of eyes or hands to get resolved.  you did your job just as directed, I dont think anyone is going to attack you for that!

[cbr806]

No - I'm not blaming anyone & I COMPLETELY appreciate what the corner workers do - like you said - we literally could not race without them.  And if SuzyQ was not there waving the flag, I would not have backed it off just that hair where it was not a problem when I saw the truck.  

That was just the most dangerous thing I've seen in 4+ years of racing so far.  I don't know how the corner working chain of command works either, but how does 'Control' know there's a truck sitting ON the race track IN the race line?

What if the original rider had gone down due to a little oil in that corner?  How would the truck have played in then  :'(?  Man I just cringe thinking about it.

I change my mind - I do blame whoever parked the truck there.  I can't imagine what he/she was thinking.

no lap completed = no points  

Well that explains why I could never find you in the race.  I kept thinking I must have misunderstood when you said you were running the R6 in the TC.  I didn't make it at all.  Good to meet you too.

[a13x]

This truck?
http://www.superbikepics.com/showimage.php?loc=31&g=27&file=OTHER_WI0422_506.jpg

 ???

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

At Road America, those trucks are owned by and controlled by the track.  The Safety Chief has turret mounted cameras at every turn.  It was not a CCS call to put that truck there.  Your bitch would be with Carson, the Safety Chief of Road America.

[5wavingyellow]

I generally don't feel the need to post on forums but I feel I must express my thoughts on this one. Be careful who you chose to criticize concerning the RA safety crew. Carson and his crew are regarded among the FINEST in the country. I have witnessed  their service as a CCS cornerworker myself for the past 15 years at RA. A waving yellow flag was presented at 12 warning riders of danger ahead. How you as a rider choose to deal with that is your choice. The RA safety crew and cornerworkers are often putting themselves in hazardous situations to insure the safety of downed riders and should not be subject to your opinions concerning a crash that you can't asess from a riders view.

[Suzy]

BTW, I did talk to Bill regarding this, because for my own knowledge, if it was my call I wanted to know and learn, but he said the reason the truck was there was to keep another rider from going down in the same place while they were trying to get him up.  And I'm glad to hear he is OK, phew. ;D

[motobenco]

If a bike was down in the same place as the truck was parked it would have been a red flag situation.  Although I do give credit to the riders around me who adjusted their line and moved on with the race.

[extrakt0r]

If a bike was down in the same place as the truck was parked it would have been a red flag situation.  Although I do give credit to the riders around me who adjusted their line and moved on with the race.

I agree...

There is over 4+ more miles to do your racing...Go easy in that corner and play in the others...I don't see what the issue is...

[cbr806]

The RA safety crew and cornerworkers are often putting themselves in hazardous situations to insure the safety of downed riders and should not be subject to your opinions concerning a crash that you can't asess from a riders view.

Nobody is subject to my opinion, but I am entitled to give it.  That's what this type of forum is all about.  No one's life's more valuable than the next person's.  The truck on the track endangered many more lives than it protected.  I've never worked as a safety worker and am not trained in anything related.  I don't need to be to know that truck 10 or 15 yards off the track would have made EVERYONE safer.  I didn't race in that corner & I could have just pulled off the track.  That's not the point.  Putting the truck there was a poor decision.  It's really not even debatable.  If a bike was on the track in the race line as the truck was, there would have been a red flag - period.  Everyone knows that.  So it's OK because it was a truck?  Come on. 

Again – I appreciate everything the safety workers and safety crews do – very much so.

[pnther15]

I have to agree w/ CBR on this one....if any of us in that race (I was) would have crashed, it would have been fatal.   I understand the reasoning of protecting the down rider, but what about the other 40+ that were still racing.  It should have been red flagged....  It was dangerous the us, the down rider, and the persons assisting the down rider.  I think the safety of the sitiuation was neglected to keep up w/ the time schedule.  Anybody who saw the truck, I think would agree. 

Dave

[Suzy]

Only other thing I have to say is that you train to go around an ambulance when on track in your schooling, the situation is no different from that in my opinion.  ;D

[spyderchick]

Actually, it is different, because they display an ambulance flag to us when they are on the track. In a turn, we only get Stationary yellow, waving yellow, or debris, so although we are never sure why those flags are displayed, generally a truck would not be expected.

Granted, an unusual situation. I would advise anyone who has a concern to take it up with Bill Ritger, He generally has reasons for why they do things, and takes the safety of all riders seriously. If there is a concern for the future, it's best to be handled now, so if there needs to be a change in policy, they can fully review it.

[Suzy]

But I did have ambulance flag shown and waving yellow. ;D

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Yes Suzy they make you go around the ambulance during LCR, but since I started with CCS in 1999, I can only remember seeing the bambulance on track during a race 2 or 3 times at BHF.

Alexa, apparently this was RA's crews call on this. I understand doing this with cars are racing, but not with bikes. If it was that dangerous to retrieve the rider the race should had been stopped.

[Suzy]

hahaha, I say that race is over, let's look forward to the next one, everyone else is ok, expect the rider that went down (hopefully he's doing better now), next time we'll know better, OTAY!! ;D ;D

[Stinger562]

The RA safety crew and cornerworkers are often putting themselves in hazardous situations to insure the safety of downed riders and should not be subject to your opinions concerning a crash that you can't asess from a riders view.

I hope that the next race is safer, and I'm sure that something was learned unless you promote this yahoo who thinks racers should have no opinion on their personal saftey!

[G 97]

At Road America, those trucks are owned by and controlled by the track.  The Safety Chief has turret mounted cameras at every turn.  It was not a CCS call to put that truck there.  Your bitch would be with Carson, the Safety Chief of Road America.

Hmm.  You sure about this.  Yes, it may have not been CCS's call to put the truck in this specific position but I G. D. guarantee you that CCS was given other options that would have prevented the truck from being parked on a HOT track with bikes circulating.   In the end it was CCS who approved of the situation.  Carson only does what the renting organization, in this case CCS, informes him to do.   CCS should have called for a red flag plain and simple.  But the schedule must go on. 

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Garth, I like and respect you, but must disagree.  I've actually worked as the voice of control in the tower at Road America for a CCS racing event, and know the procedure firsthand.  Carson works seperately from CCS, and calls his own shots concerning the dispatch and recall of his safety vehicles, pausing only to wait for the CCS workers to get the necessary flags up.  CCS DOES NOT dictate ANYTHING to Carson.  (Who also happens to be a buddy of mine.)
About the only aspect CCS had control of once that vehicle rolled was that they could have red flagged the race if they didn't like where the ambulance was sitting.  I didn't see the incident, but have experienced similar situations as a racer, a worker, and as the wounded rider twitching in the gravel pit.  In this type of incident, the racers are responsible for seeing the flags, assessing the situation, and riding through the scene accordingly.  Those are the rules as taught in Learning Curves.  Like it or not, this whole situation sounds like proper prociedure to me!

[motobenco]

 It seems that this incident (it was a truck that was on the racing line in the exit of the corner, not an ambulance) has brought several things to light.  First of all having been in that race, I believe the truck could have been placed 10 yards in either direction and it would have been a safer situation. Fortunately, no one ran into the truck or tucked the front trying to avoid it. In other instances when there has been debris or other items on or near the track I have seen the cornerworkers waving racers away from that area.  However due to the placement of the cornerworker on the inside corner of the track this may not have been feasible.  I also want to give credit to the racers around me for adjusting their line. I also wasn't racing for a podium in this race and may have a different viewpoint from the leaders.  Although this event is over with, it is quite possible for the same circumstances to occur again.  I feel that presented with a similar situation that all racers should take matters into their own hands and demand that a red flag be thrown.  I don't recommend that we do this in a Miguel / Road Atlanta sort of way, but raise your hand and point out the situation to control. It is our race when we are on the track and deserve to have the safest race possible.

[Super Dave]

This is just a no win situation.

First, we're not paid riders.  So, we have no specific, huge contracted obligation to race.  However, there are enough racers that do support this, and other racing programs, with their money and/or money from the support of others.

I have been in two specific situations where I had to make a decision that cost me a race, but I felt that if I didn't stop, I could be hurt.  Inspite of the pleas that I made, things went on.  On one occasion, a sponsor of mine did race in a race that I refused to restart, and it got him a helicopter ride. 

I always struggle with "it can be done better next time".  I'm not sure that works when you're the one that is in the helicopter or your friend is in the helicopter.  Yeah, someone needs to call it, but it needs to be done.  As racers, yes, there are times when you take a chance and use those opportunities to gain advantage.  But it is with risk. 

My opinion.

[Super Dave]

More to that it can be done better next time...

Racing has been going on for years and years and years.  Figure out the longest circumferance of a radius for a corner and draw tangents from there....that's where you're gonna hit.  If it was in the line, it poses a specific and immediate danger to racers.  This isn't new.  And it isn't like there's a championship that is so important to contracted manufacturers or other sponsors that the risk of changing the outcome of a race because of a safety situation would have any merit in this case...or even an AMA race?

[RMGSXR124]

Let me get this straight. There was a bike/rider down in a hazardous location? They didn't want anyone hitting this person or safety workers? So they put a 5000 lb. metal barricade in front of them? On the race track? In the race line? How long was it between the crash and placing the truck there? What do they have against red flags?

[cbr806]

Let me get this straight. There was a bike/rider down in a hazardous location? They didn't want anyone hitting this person or safety workers? So they put a 5000 lb. metal barricade in front of them? On the race track? In the race line? How long was it between the crash and placing the truck there? What do they have against red flags?

That's right - The only way it could have been worse would have been if the truck was further on the track or crossways on the track.  I was on the exit of the corner where you'd touch the out-side rumble strip, but you couldn't, as the truck was there three feet onto the track beyond the rumble strip.  In THE place your momentum will take you if you crash anywhere in that corner but the entrance of the corner.  The rider was over by the wall as was the ambulance (a little further down track).

If you were in the race and didn't think it required a red flag - I hope I never piss you off in a race - because you're crazy.  If you were not in the race, I don't know if you can really appreciate it.  It was a creepy feeling.

Again - what if the first rider had gone down due to a spot of oil/coolant???  National news - multiple fatality accident ...

My opinion - just trying to make it safer in the future.

[Johnson]

I was also in that race, and the fact that there was NOT a red flag thrown was absoulutely rediculous. The first of several times that I passed the truck, I would estimate that my left knee was within 3-4 feet of the rear corner of  the truck........scary!!  I toned it down a bit after that, but thinking back, I was a bit irate at the time that the truck was still there lap after lap, and still no red flag.

IMO The absolute only safe scenario there was a red flag. That was an extremely weak move by whoever was in charge, and we can only hope that whoever that is, now realizes that.

[Super_KC124]

Same thing happend at the 2nd Joliet race last year. LWGP maybe? 1st lap crash at the right hander at the end of the back straight. A FSUA Thunderbike regular crashed and ended up laying in the impact zone. The ambulance parked in the impact zone and stayed there the whole race. No red flag either.  Very fast entry into that corner. WTF?

[G 97]

Garth, I like and respect you, but must disagree.  I've actually worked as the voice of control in the tower at Road America for a CCS racing event, and know the procedure firsthand.  Carson works seperately from CCS, and calls his own shots concerning the dispatch and recall of his safety vehicles, pausing only to wait for the CCS workers to get the necessary flags up.  CCS DOES NOT dictate ANYTHING to Carson.  (Who also happens to be a buddy of mine.)
About the only aspect CCS had control of once that vehicle rolled was that they could have red flagged the race if they didn't like where the ambulance was sitting.  I didn't see the incident, but have experienced similar situations as a racer, a worker, and as the wounded rider twitching in the gravel pit.  In this type of incident, the racers are responsible for seeing the flags, assessing the situation, and riding through the scene accordingly.  Those are the rules as taught in Learning Curves.  Like it or not, this whole situation sounds like proper prociedure to me!

I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.  I'm not debating procedure only stating that when I have ran over 20 events At Road America employing the exact same crew that CCS does.  Prior to each event there is a discussion held addressing rider gets offs, crash truck and ambulance procedure, red flags etc.  In other words the renting organization can influence procedure.   It very may well have been RA's call but with that being said CCS condoned/allowed it.   

[EmerWil]

just out of curiousity...

1) how much distance was there between the vehicle parked on the race surface and the downed rider?

2) was there a reason that the vehicle had not pulled off the race surface to be closer to the downed rider?

3) was the race past half way?

[Zippy]

Actually, safety crew safety trumps racer safety.  If the truck was there to protect the people trying to help the rider, that would be the correct priority.  Some racers might like to have their safety put first, ahead of the corner workers.  I can understand the desire, but as a racer, you are accepting a greater risk than the safety crew is accepting.   Wasn't this just an implimentation of that reality? 

Remember, the corner workers are barely paid, wear no safety gear, and don't get the thrills that racers get.  They are only there because they want to keep the racers safe.  But we're not going to put them in harms way as payment for their altruism.

[Super Dave]

Hey, Zippy, I agree with some of it.

As racers, we'd don't get paid.  We actually spend unbelieveable amounts of money.  Without racers, there is no need for a track, a racing body, etc.  Because there are racers, whole cottage industries are developed.  If there were no racers, there would be no need for air fences and things like that.

I totally agree that a cornerworkers potential for risk is very high.  As a result of that peril, protection can be provided to reduce your potential for physical damage. 

But, if that places something in a location that places all racers in risk, I think it should be shut down.  That reduces your risk and the risk to a very large group of racers that are at speed.

[motobenco]

Actually to make sure everyone is on the same page we should have a rider / cornerworker / safety crew meeting. Everyone can express their concerns and understand what each persons responsibility or position entails for the weekend.