f40 why no 1000's?

[jeff_mckinney]

Sorry if this has been covered,did a search but nothing came up.
What is the reasoning behind nothing bigger than 750's in f40?

I would understand the logic if it weren't for the fact that there is a 1000 novice class

I would like to start racing again but really didn't want to buy another bike,just curious,thanks!

[tzracer]

Probably because the field would shrink. There are not that many people racing 1000s. Letting them in formula 40 would stop most people on smaller bikes from entering.

Besides old guys should not be racing such a large bike.

[Mark Bernard]

Here is what I forund in the handy dandy rule book...

6.8 FORMULA FORTY - All participants in Formula 40 must be at least 40 years of age. (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
   6.8.1  All machines legal for LW/SS, LW/SB, 125 GP or Thunderbike are legal for LW-F40.
   6.8.2  All Formula 40 machines must meet the requirements of LW/GP or HW/SS.

LIGHTWEIGHT FORMULA 40 (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
Single Cylinder, Unlimited displacement.
Two stroke, unlimited displacement.
Twin cylinder, air cooled, Unlimited displacement.
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 3 or less valves per cylinder, unlimited displacement.
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 valves per cylinder, non-desmodromic valves up to 750cc.
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 valves per cylinder, up to 750cc.
Three cylinder, non fuel injected, up to 1200cc.
Four cylinder, 3 or more valves per cylinder, air cooled up to 1200cc.
Four cylinder, 2valve, air-cooled, unlimited displacement.
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 565cc.
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, 1990 to 1992 model year, up to 650cc.
Four cylinder, liquid cooled (oil or water), pre-1990 model year, up to 860cc.
    
Note: Pourpose built road race machinery such as Yamaha's TZ250, Honda's RS250, ect. are excluded form LW/F40. 125cc two-stroke GP machines are eligible for LW/F40.

FORMULA 40 (Amatuer and Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 1000cc.
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 775cc.
Four cylinder, air cooled,2 valve, up to 1100cc.
All other engine configurations, Unlimited displacement.

I hope this helps. BTW, what are you wanting to ride? Mark B.

[PaulV]

Good Question!

With the demize of the 750 classes, it would be nice to see the 1k's added.  Most MW (A.W.) tracks tend to favor 600's over the 1k's.
You have my support, go get'em!!!! 8)

Paul
Polar-Optics
#90

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Good Question!

With the demize of the 750 classes,

What demise of the 750 class? ;D If ya need to race a 1000 in F40, theres always 1000cc twins. ;D

[ahastings]

I know one less rider in F40 because of the 750 limit- me. WERA senior Superbike allows them, and it doesn't hurt the grid size there. I petitioned CCS to change the rule in the offseason with no succes, doesn't make sense because they have a LW f 40 for the small bikes. How many over 40 riders do you think will go much faster on a 1000 anyway. If anything the grid size would be larger because there are probably 2 or 3 more riders that would run the race each weekend.

[picman]

Probably because the field would shrink. There are not that many people racing 1000s. Letting them in formula 40 would stop most people on smaller bikes from entering.

Besides old guys should not be racing such a large bike.

hahahahaha

[jryer]

I was looking at the rules and was also wondering why no liter class bikes? I turn 40 in august and really wanted to participate in the class. Like to see CCS change this. I believe it will attract more riders not less. :-\

[CCSRacer114]

I was looking at the rules and was also wondering why no liter class bikes? I turn 40 in august and really wanted to participate in the class. Like to see CCS change this. I believe it will attract more riders not less. :-\

You all should just petition for the creation of  an Unlimited F40 class (Ex/Am - Unlimited SS Rules) and add that to the current field.... (It would only be 6 simultaneous races instead of the now confusing 4).

[Super Dave]

I was looking at the rules and was also wondering why no liter class bikes?  I believe it will attract more riders not less. :-\

Middleweight and Heavyweight entries far outweigh Unlimited entries, in general.  Formula 40 is a class that serves a larger population of middleweight and heavyweight entries.

Personally, I think that amateur/novice riders should be limited to 750cc fours and 1000cc twins (and Buells/H-D plus sizes).

For those who have raced or raced against 1000cc bikes, they have dramatically different performance that few capable expert riders are able to exploit.  I can't say that they have proven to be more crash prone myself.  But it wasn't so long ago that the old 1100cc bikes, which were much slower than the current crop of 1000's, were not allowed as race bikes for amateur/novice racers.

[ROOKIE#14]

I thing if ccs change the rule from 750 to 1000, should be unlimited or stay the way it is.
If ssc going to make the change for 5-10 riders, lets do it for 20 riders and make evrybody
happy!!!!!!!       ???

[cardzilla]

You all should just petition for the creation of  an Unlimited F40 class (Ex/Am - Unlimited SS Rules) and add that to the current field.... (It would only be 6 simultaneous races instead of the now confusing 4).

Nooooooooooo!

Don't you think we have too many classes already?  I've always wondered about F40 anyway... not to slight anyone, but why not just help fill out the grids for the regular races your bike qualifies for.  Is finishing 3rd or 4th in F40 better than 10th or 11th in a supersport race?  God willing, if I'm still racing at 40 I would still enter the same classes I'm in now, not F40.  I think contracting the classes would help contingency and overall competition... I'm pretty tired of lining up against a whopping five other riders.

Hey, SD, what's your opinion?  Your a bit closer to 40 than me and you've been a very competitive rider over the years... do you plan on adding f40 to your schedule of races when you turn 40?

[Super Dave]

In the 2008 season I can race in Formula 40.  Will I race it?  I don't know.  I race the over thirty class in dirt track when I'm given a ride, but the over thirty guys can be some of the fastest consistently.

F40 for CCS?  I don't have problems mixing it up with 16 year olds or 21 year olds.  So, I'd really prefer to race with the fastest and take points from that.  Not that I worry about points anymore, but I like to do well.  I don't think that F40 is a bad thing, though.  The club racer demographic is much older from when I started doing this all those years ago.  And if one wanted to race a class, you got a bike for it...or rode faster on the one you had.

I suppose that F40 being broken down into more classes isn't a bad thing.  I don't see where making "regular" F40 a 600 to 1000 class is reasonable.  The performance envelope of 1000's is stupid now.  And many, many racers at the club level do not recognize the difference in how a 1000 should be ridden.  Again, these aren't the 1100's of years ago or the other almost liter bikes of before. 

So, could there be a F40 lightweight, unlimited, then in between...which then might as well become middleweight and heavyweight...  Maybe.  It's further fragmenting of the program, but if it all runs together...well, I think that's fine.

[dylanfan53]

Besides old guys like me should not be racing such a large bike.

Fixed it for ya Brian.

(Sorry...I held out as long as I could!)  :-*

[Team-G]

It should be based on the rider's weight.  If the rider is over 220 lbs, they should be able to ride 4 cyl 1000's.   I'm tired of eating hay 3 times a day and taking colon-blow suppliments to lose weight.

Larry will have a scale in tech, so bring your donuts and cream puffs.

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

It should be based on the rider's weight.  If the rider is over 220 lbs, they should be able to ride 4 cyl 1000's.   I'm tired of eating hay 3 times a day and taking colon-blow suppliments to lose weight.

Larry will have a scale in tech, so bring your donuts and cream puffs.

FORMULA FATTY!  Now you're talking about my wildest dream come true.  I say we petition for THIS class!  I will SO kick all y'all's asses in F Fatty!

[spyderchick]

Riders under 220lbs can team up with another rider to make the weight. For instance, say Ed Key wants to ride a GSXR 1000, he must take Guy (or Rhiannon) along with him, and together they must make weight. 

[TommyG]

Nooooooooooo!

Don't you think we have too many classes already?  I've always wondered about F40 anyway... not to slight anyone, but why not just help fill out the grids for the regular races your bike qualifies for.  Is finishing 3rd or 4th in F40 better than 10th or 11th in a supersport race?  God willing, if I'm still racing at 40 I would still enter the same classes I'm in now, not F40.  I think contracting the classes would help contingency and overall competition... I'm pretty tired of lining up against a whopping five other riders.

Hey, SD, what's your opinion?  Your a bit closer to 40 than me and you've been a very competitive rider over the years... do you plan on adding f40 to your schedule of races when you turn 40?

The problem Dave really has with F40 is he already gets beat week in and week out by the top runners!! Check the results!!!  KAAAABBBBAAAAAAAMMMM!!!!

[Team_Serpent]

Besides old guys should not be racing such a large bike.

Excuse me?!

[Team_Serpent]

You all should just petition for the creation of  an Unlimited F40 class (Ex/Am - Unlimited SS Rules) and add that to the current field.... (It would only be 6 simultaneous races instead of the now confusing 4).

I'm not sure we could get 6 waves of us old guys off the line before the first wave hits the start finish :)

I'll tell ya one thing, Purk and I are on 600's and Tommy is on a 750, it's already pretty hairy coming through the lappers.  I'm not sure we need an even bigger speed differential.

I was already thinking about asking CCS to split the classes up into seperate races when we get a larger turn out (which in the midwest region it's been a pretty strong turn out so far this season.)

[Team_Serpent]

Nooooooooooo!

Don't you think we have too many classes already?  I've always wondered about F40 anyway... not to slight anyone, but why not just help fill out the grids for the regular races your bike qualifies for.  Is finishing 3rd or 4th in F40 better than 10th or 11th in a supersport race?  God willing, if I'm still racing at 40 I would still enter the same classes I'm in now, not F40.  I think contracting the classes would help contingency and overall competition... I'm pretty tired of lining up against a whopping five other riders.

Hey, SD, what's your opinion?  Your a bit closer to 40 than me and you've been a very competitive rider over the years... do you plan on adding f40 to your schedule of races when you turn 40?

Ah, young grasshopper - first off the guys I know finishing 3rd or 4th in F40 ARE also filling out the grids in the other classes their bikes qualify for, and they an't finishing as far back as 10th or 11th in those classes either!

Now if your question was really valid then I'd say one word - contigentcy.

What classes are you running that only have 5 or 6 riders?  If you're tired of small grids maybe you could get another bike and run some races with bigger grids - just an idea :)

[251am]

Here is what I forund in the handy dandy rule book...

6.8 FORMULA FORTY - All participants in Formula 40 must be at least 40 years of age. (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
  6.8.1  All machines legal for LW/SS, LW/SB, 125 GP or Thunderbike are legal for LW-F40.
  6.8.2  All Formula 40 machines must meet the requirements of LW/GP or HW/SS.

LIGHTWEIGHT FORMULA 40 (Amateur and Expert Divisions)
Single Cylinder, Unlimited displacement.
Two stroke, unlimited displacement.
Twin cylinder, air cooled, Unlimited displacement.
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 3 or less valves per cylinder, unlimited displacement.
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 valves per cylinder, non-desmodromic valves up to 750cc.
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 valves per cylinder, up to 750cc.
Three cylinder, non fuel injected, up to 1200cc.
Four cylinder, 3 or more valves per cylinder, air cooled up to 1200cc.
Four cylinder, 2valve, air-cooled, unlimited displacement.
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 565cc.
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, 1990 to 1992 model year, up to 650cc.
Four cylinder, liquid cooled (oil or water), pre-1990 model year, up to 860cc.
   
Note: Pourpose built road race machinery such as Yamaha's TZ250, Honda's RS250, ect. are excluded form LW/F40. 125cc two-stroke GP machines are eligible for LW/F40.

FORMULA 40 (Amatuer and Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 1000cc.
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 775cc.
Four cylinder, air cooled,2 valve, up to 1100cc.
All other engine configurations, Unlimited displacement.

I hope this helps. BTW, what are you wanting to ride? Mark B.

This is really some of the most archaic non-sensical stuff. When I hit the big old 4-Oh I cannot run my RC51 in it?


The regs need to be re-examined some, and redone, eh?

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

Uh, wouldn't your RC51 be a Twin cylinder, liquid cooled up to 1000cc?

FORMULA 40 (Amatuer and Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 1000cc.
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 775cc.
Four cylinder, air cooled,2 valve, up to 1100cc.
All other engine configurations, Unlimited displacement.

[251am]

Uh, wouldn't your RC51 be a Twin cylinder, liquid cooled up to 1000cc?

FORMULA 40 (Amatuer and Expert Divisions)
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 1000cc.
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 775cc.
Four cylinder, air cooled,2 valve, up to 1100cc.
All other engine configurations, Unlimited displacement.

Uh, duh, thanks.  (don't drink and type, like me... )

[StuartV666]

Could somebody official maybe weigh in on this?

And, put me down as a vote for "Please, please, PLEASE add Unlimited Supersport to the Formula Forty class."

It seemed to make a little more sense to not allow 1000s when there was no LW F40. But, now that there is, there seems to be no sensible reason to NOT allow 1000s. WERA's equivalent allows the equivalent of Heavyweight Superbikes (i.e. 750s with lots of mod) and Unlimited Supersport (i.e. 1000s relatively stock). Personally, I would be fine with excluding 1000s actually built for Unlimited GP.

I made my return to racing this year (finally) and my new bike is a GSX-R1000. I raced 600s on and off from '90 to '03 and I wanted to try something bigger for a change. But now, there's not very many classes on a weekend that I can run it in. Being allowed to run it in F40 would really be nice. (and I don't see what the reasoning would be for not letting me do so).

Come on!! At least for next season? I won't be 40 until October anyway.

How about it Kevin or Eric??

[Team_Serpent]

Oh, what the hell - I'll buy into that.  1000's for next year +1.

Maybe you can get Kevin to let 1000's into a couple of rounds this year as a "test" to see how things go and get a feeling for any impact it might have on grid size.

[TommyG]

Stu   I don`t think this would change your mind at all but you do realize that F40 points do not count towards your overall points don`t you? I just like to bring that up now and then as F40 newcomers are usually in the dark on that one!

[sryan296]

I think all you old farts should get some sort discount on the f40 entry fees

just like the senior discount you guys get at denny's

[cbirk]

I think all you old farts should get some sort discount on the f40 entry fees
just like the senior discount you guys get at denny's

free ice cream cone at lunch...or buy one get one free. 

[sryan296]

Just wondering ?   When you formula 40 guys go thru tech do they make sure your dentures aren't loose

[cbirk]

Just wondering ?   When you formula 40 guys go thru tech do they make sure your dentures aren't loose

might have to safety wire those too.... all jokes aside... I commend the old schoolers. I just hope when I'm 40+ i'm still racing. Keep up what the good work guys and keep doing what you love.. I think the f40 should have I-4 1000's allowed so I'll vote for it!! 

[sryan296]

They may be old, but tommy and dennis  still spank me every weekend

[Protein Filled]

I heard they do and that they also have a special port-a-poty next to tech where they can change their depends...It's right next to Tommy G's pit, so he can get to it easily

[sryan296]

I was wondering what that smell was

[catman]

Think they'll be a f60 class for my retirement in 10 years?If you are racing then ,you prolly learned the right longevity lessons of this sport so any size bike should be your weapon of "CHOICE"   Isnt this just before the kids talking you out of driving your car anymore? I'm not going easily on that one!!My response may be something like :finger:and ive been saving this up for you kids NJ JOHN

[StuartV666]

Ho, ho, ho, hee, hee, hee. You guys are hilarious! ;)

TommyG, no, that doesn't make any difference to me. I've got a 1000 to race (for now), and I just want another class I can run it in. Unl SS, Unl SB, Unl GP, and GTO aren't enough for a whole weekend.

[StuartV666]

And again I wonder.... Does anybody that has authority within CCS to actually change the rules even read this forum?

[Eric Kelcher]

No.   8)

For rule changes or suggestions there will be details about procedure to present to the rules commiittee in the next mailer.

[StuartV666]

Aha! Thanks, Eric.

Hey Mongo, can you comment on how allowing 1000s in WERA CORC (or whatever it's called now) has affected the grids? Bigger? Smaller?

And the racing? Are the 1000s dominating? If so, it it because the same guys who were winning before on 750s are now just doing it on 1000s instead?