HP vs lap times

[Super Dave]

Provisional Thursday Morning AMA Superbike Practice Times:
Tommy Hayden (Kaw ZX-10R), 1:40.045

Provisional Thursday Morning AMA Supersport Practice Times:
Tommy Hayden (Kaw ZX-6RR), 1:41.590

[Eric Kelcher]

closer comparision would be sport to fx or stock to bike or sport to stock or fx to bike

bike to sport is not real close comparision different level of modification allowed and displacement  difference.

[Protein Filled]

I think Dave's point is that you have a bike that makes 125-135 hp and one that makes 200+ and the difference in lap times at a horsepower track like Daytona is only 1.5 seconds...

[tzracer]

Eric's point is that the comparison is more than power. To compare what difference power makes, you should compare two bikes that are identical other than their power output. Comparing a supersport bike to a superstock bike is much more than a power difference.

[Protein Filled]

I guess you are right. I have heard that the ZX-10's do handle like crap...

[cardzilla]

Eric's point is that the comparison is more than power. To compare what difference power makes, you should compare two bikes that are identical other than their power output. Comparing a supersport bike to a superstock bike is much more than a power difference.

+1000 !

I've seen this raging debate and it makes me chuckle.  All other things equal, HP wins races.  If you take identical bikes in every respect except one makes 20 HP more than the other, the higher HP one wins every time (with the same rider).

I understand that there are MORE important things if you're starting from scratch, but with the bike straight up and down to say that HP isn't a huge advantage is silly.

The ZX6-RR is a developed motorcycle, moreover one that both Haydens are very familiar with.  The ZX10 is not.  The ZX10 also has a lot of new pieces this year.  

I think a better comparison is Mladin's / Spies GSXR superbike vs. an average superstock bike.

Mladin GSXRK6 sb 1:37.075 (Good GOD!)
May    GSXRK6 ssk 1:39.712

2.7 seconds a lap is an enternity, even at DIS.  I agree you should start from the pavement and work your way up when doing mods, but power does matter

[Super Dave]

Eric's point is that the comparison is more than power. To compare what difference power makes, you should compare two bikes that are identical other than their power output. Comparing a supersport bike to a superstock bike is much more than a power difference.

And my point is further...

If you read my original post...

It's a Superbike vs Supersport bike.

So, not only are we dealing with HP, the superbike probably has 40% more than the supersport bike, it has lighter wheels, aftermarket brakes, slicks, aftermarket forks, etc.

Controling with the rider, the difference is not big.  1.5 seconds can be big, but with a bike that is spinning on the banking for such a long time...HP can make up a whole lot in that "straightaway" area.

Not developed?  Spare me.  No bike ever reaches a final stage of development in the production world.  You're always making changes.  How much money has Kaw put at the ZX10R?  Are they there to parade around or actually try and win the championship?  Businesses are not out for fun.

[tzracer]

And my point is further...

If you read my original post...

It's a Superbike vs Supersport bike.

Yes I read the original post, you listed the lap time for 2 different bikes under the heading 'hp vs lap times' with no furthur text.

So, not only are we dealing with HP, the superbike probably has 40% more than the supersport bike, it has lighter wheels, aftermarket brakes, slicks, aftermarket forks, etc.

Controling with the rider, the difference is not big.  1.5 seconds can be big, but with a bike that is spinning on the banking for such a long time...HP can make up a whole lot in that "straightaway" area.

Not developed?  Spare me.  No bike ever reaches a final stage of development in the production world.  You're always making changes.  How much money has Kaw put at the ZX10R?  Are they there to parade around or actually try and win the championship?  Businesses are not out for fun.

Why not compare to Mladin's time then. What was that, in the low 37s. That would be more like 4 seconds faster. Really doesn't matter because it is still apples to oranges.

If you want to make a definitive statement about the affect of hp on lap times, you still need to compare 2 bikes, same rider with the only difference between the bikes being power.

[r6_philly]

a better way to approach this issue is to look at segment times:

tommy hayden best segment times

SB qualifying:
11.991
48.132
12.854
25.382

SS qualifying
12.134
48.518
13.609
27.539

So segment 1 and 2 are infield sections so the HP just barely passes the handling of the 600, but look at the run down the back straight and from the chicane to turn 1, HP rules.

you want to see what HP means on the straight?
My best seg 4 time is 29.0 and my bike dyno'ed 106 at the track thur. so apparently the 25+ hp equals to 1.5 seconds from the chicane to turn 1.

which actually makes sense because the superbike have what 60+ hp and it is over 2 seconds faster than the SS bike. Of course the drag efficiency of the bikes and the fact the SB tires spin on the banking still have to be figured in but it seems just about right.

[JBraun]

I've seen this raging debate and it makes me chuckle.  All other things equal, HP wins races.  If you take identical bikes in every respect except one makes 20 HP more than the other, the higher HP one wins every time (with the same rider).

All things can't be equal though. Horsepower has side effects. I went from an 99 R6 to a 03 GSX-R1000. The 1000 is lighter, makes tons more power and stops better, but I went slower on it. It's just hard to ride with all the motor.
If we raced at elkhart five times a year I'd love it, but at blackhawk or gingerman, I'll take a 600 any time.

[cardzilla]

All things can't be equal though. Horsepower has side effects. I went from an 99 R6 to a 03 GSX-R1000. The 1000 is lighter, makes tons more power and stops better, but I went slower on it. It's just hard to ride with all the motor.
If we raced at elkhart five times a year I'd love it, but at blackhawk or gingerman, I'll take a 600 any time.

You make a point, I suffered through the same exact thing but I'm now much quicker on the R1 than I was on the 600rr.  I guess "all things equal" would include a rider that is comfortable with both bikes.

[Nate R]

OK, but a bike with 50 HP less than the 600 will have a much bigger difference in lap times. An SV at Daytona would be farther behind a 130 HP 600 than a 600 would be behind a 200+ HP 1000.

But point is still made. HP isn't always as big a diff as most people make it to be. It's just that the 600 is a lot closer to the tire limits of accel. So a 1000 can't add a whole lot more. An SV doesn't have that power.

I guess I could just say that it's not linear.