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SV vs. TZ Question

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Litespeed

Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2003, 07:33:23 am »
Why does everyone quote the power to weight ratio of a bike and not consider the rider?  A 125 bike at 150 lbs and 40 hp has a lb/hp ratio of 3.75 which is equivalent to a 400 lb bike with 107 hp.  Kind of close to a 600 until you put a rider on both.  Figure 180 lbs with gear and suddenly you have 8.25 vs 5.42 which are vastly different.  
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TZDeSioux

Re: "SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2003, 07:45:56 am »
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TZ-Boy I wish you the best of luck learning to properly ride your 250, Mr. Kwak you too.  When you see the light you will understand.


Eh?  ???  I DO understand. I've stated over and over that racing against SV's is more than fair. I just don't like racing 600's. Whatever my reason is for not liking racing 600's is not from my bike's performance stand point but from my performance standpoint. I'm not very good at running with 600's. I don't need to see the light.. already done did seen it a long time ago when I used to watch Jeff Voss and Ken Kono go at it at Grattan many moons ago. Lack of speed doesn't mean you haven't seen the light or understand. Lack of speed on a TZ also doesn't mean you should dump it for something more manageable. Some of us are new racers. We're still learning not only how to race but how to ride this particular bike. I'd probably quit racing today if I couldnt' race a TZ or something similar.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2003, 07:53:57 am by TZDeSioux »
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Roach

Re: "SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2003, 12:12:58 pm »
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Eh?  ???  I DO understand. I've stated over and over that racing against SV's is more than fair. I just don't like racing 600's.


But the point is, it *isn't* fair to the SV riders.

I'm going to try approaching this from another direction... you know, that insanity thing... :)

Club racing is just that... club racing. It's a business that's driven by it's membership's needs. The most popular LW bike out there is the SV650. It's almost as popular as the 600cc machines these days. From a business standpoint, this is the bike you want to cater to in terms of class availability. This is why the bulk of the LW classes are SV oriented in terms of machine requirement rules... it's where the money is in regard to entry fees.

With a 250gp machine, you have a class. It's LWGP in CCS, and F2 in WERA. This is THE class for that bike - everthing else in the class is "bumping up". A 250gp machine is capable of destroying any other bike in that class. The SV gets to be king of the roost in LW production classes. LW and MW sportsman (in CCS) are consessions to the other LW bikes that can't compete against the SVs in the "regular" LW classes.  

Because there's so many sprint classes, they can make at least one place for everyone even when, in the case of the 250gp machines, they are a severe minority in terms of number of entries. The SVs get more than one place... as they should becuase of their popularity (again, from a business standpoint).

In the GT races, the 250 machines have to "fit in" somewhere because their numbers preclude them from being a class-defining machine. If you can't accept that you can win, then lets say they are far closer in performance to 600's than they are LW machines - this is the point everyone here has been trying to make. If they could make a new 250GT class, and have it be popular and profitable, I'm sure they would. If they put 250s in GTL, they risk angering the majority of their customers (SV riders) - not a good business move.

And that's the rub - if you want to be a club racer, and have a ton of classes where your bike has the advantage, buy an SV or a 600... it's what's popular.

Or... step up and run AMA (at least through 2003) or the USGPRU (with FUSA and CCS, they've added 250gp this year) where you get a class comprised entirely of 250cc bikes.  The WERA Nat'l Formula 2 series is another good one. All of these classes will show you just how fast a 250gp machine can go, and you'll only have to worry about getting lapped by people like Monty, Donnie, Brian, etc  :)

- Roach
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Roach

Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2003, 12:33:57 pm »
Quote
Why does everyone quote the power to weight ratio of a bike and not consider the rider?  A 125 bike at 150 lbs and 40 hp has a lb/hp ratio of 3.75 which is equivalent to a 400 lb bike with 107 hp.  Kind of close to a 600 until you put a rider on both.  Figure 180 lbs with gear and suddenly you have 8.25 vs 5.42 which are vastly different.  


Which is why a 125 is allowed in GTL :)

In the case of the 250GP machine, you are at a slight disadvantage on power:weight with a (older) stock bike, but this is made up for by the fact you are riding a factory purpose-built race machine what has a far better chassis and cornering ability.

Also, most 250s out there aren't stock. Mine ('93 chassis, '96 worked motor) makes 78hp at the rear and weighs about 225, giving it a 2.88:1 ratio.  Add 180lbs and you get 5.19:1, which is still better than your 600 example (and I weigh less than 180 with gear). A 2002 RS250 or TZ250 makes close to 80hp out of the box, I believe.

- Roach
(who's really done now... honest :) )
« Last Edit: January 02, 2003, 12:37:33 pm by Roach »
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TZDeSioux

Re: "SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2003, 12:37:11 pm »
Quote


But the point is, it *isn't* fair to the SV riders.

I'm going to try approaching this from another direction... you know, that insanity thing... :)

Club racing is just that... club racing. It's a business that's driven by it's membership's needs. The most popular LW bike out there is the SV650. It's almost as popular as the 600cc machines these days. From a business standpoint, this is the bike you want to cater to in terms of class availability. This is why the bulk of the LW classes are SV oriented in terms of machine requirement rules... it's where the money is in regard to entry fees.

With a 250gp machine, you have a class. It's LWGP in CCS, and F2 in WERA. This is THE class for that bike - everthing else in the class is "bumping up". A 250gp machine is capable of destroying any other bike in that class. The SV gets to be king of the roost in LW production classes. LW and MW sportsman (in CCS) are consessions to the other LW bikes that can't compete against the SVs in the "regular" LW classes.  

Because there's so many sprint classes, they can make at least one place for everyone even when, in the case of the 250gp machines, they are a severe minority in terms of number of entries. The SVs get more than one place... as they should becuase of their popularity (again, from a business standpoint).

In the GT races, the 250 machines have to "fit in" somewhere because their numbers preclude them from being a class-defining machine. If you can't accept that you can win, then lets say they are far closer in performance to 600's than they are LW machines - this is the point everyone here has been trying to make. If they could make a new 250GT class, and have it be popular and profitable, I'm sure they would. If they put 250s in GTL, they risk angering the majority of their customers (SV riders) - not a good business move.

And that's the rub - if you want to be a club racer, and have a ton of classes where your bike has the advantage, buy an SV or a 600... it's what's popular.

Or... step up and run AMA (at least through 2003) or the USGPRU (with FUSA and CCS, they've added 250gp this year) where you get a class comprised entirely of 250cc bikes.  The WERA Nat'l Formula 2 series is another good one. All of these classes will show you just how fast a 250gp machine can go, and you'll only have to worry about getting lapped by people like Monty, Donnie, Brian, etc  :)

- Roach


What exactly are we arguing about here? You're preaching to the choir at this point man. This whole time.. I'm trying to get across a point that LWGP is more than fair for us and that I don't like racing against 600's. I'm sure there are 600 riders that don't like racing in GTU for the exact same reasons that I have. Do I think TZ250's belong in GTLights? Of course not. I know what a TZ is capable of doing so I don't need to check out a Wera national to see how fast Monty, Donnie, and Brian can go on a TZ because I can see even faster guys when the AMA comes to Road America. And with that being said.. lets kill this freakin thread.  :P
« Last Edit: January 02, 2003, 12:40:25 pm by TZDeSioux »
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Roach

Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2003, 12:42:32 pm »
Sorry... got you lumped in with TZ_boy there based on the not wanting to race against 600s comment, and my wanting to use that statement to make a tie in to the fairness to SV riders :)

I was just trying to provide another reason why 250s shouldn't be in GTL, from a different angle hoping he would see the light.

- Roach
« Last Edit: January 02, 2003, 12:44:23 pm by Roach »
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TZDeSioux

Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2003, 12:45:10 pm »
 :)
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Litespeed

Re: SV vs. TZ Question
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2003, 09:31:09 am »
Is it dead now?  Cause if it is I'm gonna start a thread about CCS not having enough classes that a 125 is competitive in :).   Before you say anything, that was a joke, I am 100% ready to take on all the SV's 600's 250's and anything else they will let me race against.
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