need some advice on SharkSkinz on other stuff.

[Steviebee]

Newbie needs some help.  I'm new to the midwest area and dont have a clue where to get stuff.

But i've made up my mind im going to try racing this year so I need some help finding some parts.

Where's a good place to get Shark Skinz and some Engine Case Gaurds

And can someone tell me the name of that black front wheel chock than you can ride up in to, that ive seen a lot of.  I thought it was Black Jack but i cant find it online.

[sdiver68]

I'll let people plug their sponsors for your first question.

Here's a link to the Sport Chock:

http://www.baxleycompanies.com/la_wheel_chock.html

Great for trailering (I have one and about to order another), neat idea for the track...problem is you can't use tire warmers with it.

[Steviebee]

hmmm  tire warmes  andother thing i dont have the money for ..

Thanks.  for the link

[Litespeed]

Sharkskinz makes great bodywork but you can get good stuff for half the cost and be just as happy.  Enigine case guards depends on the bike but CFM-woodcraft carry them for a good price.  I think that circuit1 is also making them, just depends on which bike you are going to race.

[Lowe119]

I've only raced one year, but I've done a lot of research on composite bodywork (actually I make my own now).  But I'd check out http://www.xxxcomposites.com/ their information about their competition is right on. You might want to save a little money and get the cheaper models (although they will shatter more in a crash). But I'd order straight through the companies themselves for bodywork.

I use NRC guards because they were the cheapest I could find. I just ordered that through my local motorcycle parts store.

I hope I helped a little. I'm still learning a ton, so the experts might have more advice for ya  :)

[Super Dave]

I don't think Eric Wood at Woodcraft makes anything bad.  His case covers are really nice.  They have replaceable sliders built into them.  

Sharkskinz really have been the standard for a long time.  You can just about crash them over and over.  I thought XXXComposites went into bankrupcy, but I really don't know.

In the Midwest, you could call Armour Bodies in Ontario.  877-944-8244.  Reasonable price, comes with a repair kit, and the quality seems to be very near to what Sharkskinz is.

Tire warmers?  Baker Race Gear is my choice.  Local in the Midwest too.  414-916-9669.  Might have them on sale now.  

But suspension is the key, and knowing how to put it all together.  

Oh, and proper schooling, that goes with the riding and the set up stuff.  That could come from me and my guys.  We can probably help. ;D

[Steviebee]

Cool thanks for the help..
Litespeed  what is good stuff for half the cost ??

SuperDave that reminds me.  Im planing on attending your schools at Blackhawk.  Now that it looks like the dates are set.  1 question, for the dicounted rate for previous track experience, does the 2-day Star (Jason Pridmore) count ?  I did that one at Putnam last June (thats what got this whole thing started)

[KBOlsen]

Phil Caudill at www.moto-heaven.com was very helpful with getting me bodywork and filling my "spare parts box".  Like FAST and CHEAP!

Sharkskinz are very "crashable" and easy to repair.  Advice from this newbie is, avoid anything that has a gel coat, since that seems to make bodywork more brittle and prone to shattering on impact.

[Lowe119]

xxxcomposites might truly be out of business, but their web site still will teach you about the quality of different companies' products. example - the difference between polyester, vinylester, and epoxy; and gel coat and urethane primer. click their site; then technical information; then the competition.  
Or click composite basics to learn it all.  It is all true and epoxy with urethane coat and a tad bit of kevlar is the ticket - but expensive.

I crashed on polyester (aka cheap Beasley) and it was a mess. I was still able to fix it and my buddy's cheap airtech, though. I've never crashed on my Sharkskinz (yet).  I know they will all break - just some more than others. A little practice with resins and glass (or carbon and kevlar) and you can fix anything (if you have a couple hours).

I hope I didn't confuse or stray you more  :-/ I'm just sharing my learnings.  If you need any advice on fixing this stuff, let me know. I've been an apprentice of a fiberglass master for the last year  8)

[Steviebee]

Thanks for the help.  the xxxcompositis web site was great.

Super_dave ..  Since im a newbie i figured that i'd keep my stock suspension untill i wear it out or get good enough that i would help.  I dont think it would make much diference for me know (i could be wrong). One thing i do know is that last track day at Putnam i was getting some rear tire hop on heavy braking for turns 1 & 7 .  I could see where better suspension can help that, but i dont think im good enough to need it. (like i said I could be wrong)

[bmfgsxr]

for body work you might want to try www.akcomposite.com they are a fairly new company but they make great bodywork. its on par with the sharskinz. they have kevlar reinforced mounting points and impact points, and the shit is so flexable that you can literally bend the ears over and the go right back into place without cracking.

tell them that bmfgsxr from team "offthewall racing" sent ya. ask for gilmore.

tirewarmes, i like the chicken hawks. and the new pole positions, have a burn proof liner, and once you learn a few things about tire warmers you will appreciate what that is worth.

good luck.

[Lowe119]

Since I'm reading this I'll reply....

I'm putting all my money into suspension for next season (after my first year of all stock). The only thing I had last year was a damper. I still have the stock exhaust and jets.  I didn't think anything of my suspension until I started dicing in the top ten (1:20-1:21 lap times at BFR). Then I REALLY noticed.  My bike was all over the place. I had the Traxxion guy set up my stock suspension and that helped a ton, but not enough. I was burning up a set of tyres a weekend (partly because of cold-shreading) and I was wallowing and what-not through the corners (mainly following Chachere).

All the guys following me commented on my suspension and that is what I'm saving for. Horsepower is not what made me slower  ;)

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

   Steviebee; I think the one thing that truely held me back as an amatuer was not having any suspension upgrades on my GSXR 750. I was consistently running top 5 but never had the bike stability that the guys in front of me did. My first year expert I invested in front and rear springs (for my correct weight) and a gold valve kit for the front and dropped 2 seconds per lap my first weekend using that upgrade (wish I would have gold valved the rear also).
   I think that the first thing any racer should do is get their suspension set-up for their weight and riding style. This will probably be the most beneficial thing that you can do to your bike to lower your lap times and will greatly improve the handling of your bike. It's a hell of alot easier to race when your not fighting handling problems! That is how these guys are doing 1:14's (and lower) at BHF on 600's.
   A word of advice on the suspension though. As you lower your lap times your suspension valving will need to be modified accordingly and you MAY need slightly stronger springs and/or preload adjustment.
   As for your rear wheel hop problem at Putnam (a track I truely miss seeing on the midwest schedule) I would guess it is the result of a couple things. First of all you can carry alot more speed into turn 1 than you probably are, therefore reducing the need for "heavy braking" there. Secondly your getting weight transfer into the front end that is making the rear end want to hop. To help reduce this try shifting your butt all the way back on the seat and gripping the gas tank with your knees when your braking hard. This will help to lower the point where your weight is being transferred into the bike (which is now being transfered thru the handlebars). Other than pulling the brake lever you should be able to hold onto the handlebars very lightly even while heavy braking if you do as mentioned (therefore reducing the amount of weight transfered into a high point on the motorcycle).
   All of that could probably be avoided or reduced by simply having your suspension done, but that's up to you!
   This is just some freindly advice from one racer to another and may not be perfect, but I know it helped me. Anyone else have any ideas?

[Steviebee]

Hey thanks even more for the suspension thoughts.

I did try shifting my weight back and useing the rear brake a little bit first to weight up the rear.

I understand a lot about suspension and sutff, i just figured i've got a lot to learn before im anywhere near the limit of the stock suspension.  I'm just hoping to get some races in and stay with the pack and not get left in the dust.

Im converting my 2k gsxr 750 to race in SS class.  I figure ill run the HW SS and SB class and maybee one more.  I still need to learn the other midwest CCS tracks and learn how to race.

Got a teadmill i've been runing on, and im starting to work out (strenght training) got 4 months till Blackhawk.  Im going to try to do most the the Blackhawk CCS races and NESBA track days.  then maybee Road America and Gingerman.  It all depends on how it goes.

[Litespeed]

I would definately reccomend the akcomposite stuff if they make it for your bike.  As for Sharkskinz, I have lowsided twice with mine and while the second one just scuffed them, the first one was a bit of a dissapointment.  I guess the easiest way to describe it is that the glass doesn't go to the edge of the mold so the resin is built up to provide the shape around the edges.  I had a few spots where the edges lost chunks which wouldn't have been that big of a deal but some of them were in a location where there was no other damage and it looked as though flexing is what caused it.  Because of this, I would reccomend saving your money and getting something else.

[Jeff]

And can someone tell me the name of that black front wheel chock than you can ride up in to, that ive seen a lot of.  I thought it was Black Jack but i cant find it online.

The one you're talking about is either the LA Chock or the BattleAX.  However, there is (in my opinion) a better alternative.

The Condor Lift.  www.condor-lift.com I picked one up last year and will pick up another this year.  They're absolutely awesome.  The trailer kit makes them just incredible.

Read my Review on them along with ordering and contact info: http://www.cbr600f4.com/secondary_pages/condor.htm

[Super Dave]

SuperDave that reminds me.  Im planing on attending your schools at Blackhawk.  Now that it looks like the dates are set.  1 question, for the dicounted rate for previous track experience, does the 2-day Star (Jason Pridmore) count ?  I did that one at Putnam last June (thats what got this whole thing started)

Yes, either your cert from Jason or a racing license will get you a discount on my school.  

Signing up for three to five schools will get you another discount, and six is another.

[Super Dave]

Super_dave ..  Since im a newbie i figured that i'd keep my stock suspension untill i wear it out or get good enough that i would help.  I dont think it would make much diference for me know (i could be wrong). One thing i do know is that last track day at Putnam i was getting some rear tire hop on heavy braking for turns 1 & 7 .  I could see where better suspension can help that, but i dont think im good enough to need it. (like i said I could be wrong)

Good thought process, but you'd be surprised.  

Yes, we all can come up with a list of riders that can ride each of our bikes better than we do.

However, a bike that works better is easier to control more consistently at a faster pace.

So, terror that some riders have going a certain lap time can be eliminated with some changes.  Stock suspension is LIMITED.  The components really don't move enough fluid.  The spring RATES are usually incorrect.  And how the bike carries itself geometrically just isn't right.  Making the bike a bit better in the geometry department will make a great difference.

I can really mess up a bike's stock suspension to help a rider understand some of that, but you really can't make it the way it should be.  

You can buy the correct springs, but then you still don't have the ability to change the rear ride height.  And we're back to that moving fluid thing again.

I hate to tell someone that they have to spend money, but it's better to understand a bit more about the suspension now, rather than struggle over it later.

[Steviebee]

Since were throwing around talk about suspension.

What is the 30$ "Super" Dave's suspension guidance ?  Is this something you offer during your school days, or only on race days?

Thats good Information about the discount for signing up for several school days (so is it 200$ (w/ experiance) or 180$ prior VRS - 45$ for early sign up - xx.x$ discount) for 3 schools total = 425$ - xx.x discount

Well I want to try to race "most" of the season (i'll also be seeing some tracks for the first time. Havent decided if i should try a race day on a track i've never been to.? any advice anyone?)  But I haven't decided weather I should go for broke and pre-enter for several races upfront or wait till i get some racing under my belt to see how it is/I do.

I know i'll be gridded at the back for 2 weekends (Blue shirts CCS uses ? or Orange ?? for newbies), then I should be a real ametuer.  I'm going to use my 750 to run in SS and SB, maybe later a GT race or unlimited.

[Super Dave]

Since were throwing around talk about suspension.

What is the 30$ "Super" Dave's suspension guidance ?  Is this something you offer during your school days, or only on race days?

Thats good Information about the discount for signing up for several school days (so is it 200$ (w/ experiance) or 180$ prior VRS - 45$ for early sign up - xx.x$ discount) for 3 schools total = 425$ - xx.x discount

Well I want to try to race "most" of the season (i'll also be seeing some tracks for the first time. Havent decided if i should try a race day on a track i've never been to.? any advice anyone?)  But I haven't decided weather I should go for broke and pre-enter for several races upfront or wait till i get some racing under my belt to see how it is/I do.

I know i'll be gridded at the back for 2 weekends (Blue shirts CCS uses ? or Orange ?? for newbies), then I should be a real ametuer.  I'm going to use my 750 to run in SS and SB, maybe later a GT race or unlimited.

Suspension guidance.  If you've been to my school, I'm yours, no extra cost.  If you haven't, then you can use me for the weekend.  Much better to come to my school, because we can try things.  During a race weekend, well, you're patching things together.  Sometimes you go in the wrong direction, but you learn.

$425 for three schools for you, yes.  Sign up for three and then take $30 off - $395 total.  You're spot on.  And I'm yours to beat your head against.

Racing on new tracks?  Do it!  Why not?  The first time I raced at Sears Point was during an AMA National event.  

Doing a track day at track is not the same as a race day anyway.  You can understand where the track goes, but pushing yourself to go faster like you to on race day is quite different for someone that is less experienced.

As for pre entering?  Well, it's nice to be up front.  It's free time.  You'd probably finish better there rather than starting in the back.  

Will you like it?  Maybe not initailly.  Hard to say.  Racing can turn your stomach inside out.  But it is fun.  And that's the thing to remember.  

You never stop learning.  That's what makes it so challenging, aggravating, enjoyable, addictive, preoccupying,etc.

[khanson]

I'm a Woodcraft dealer and can set you up with a discount for Woodcraft products i.e. case covers, clipons, rearsets, stands, etc.  They make really good products at REALLY REASONABLE PRICES.

I also agree with spending your money on suspension.  It will also lower your tire bill from prematurely chewing up new tires.

Give me a call or email me.  217-493-3811

I'm also in the process of setting up a website for online purchasing and adding several other products.

[Super Dave]

Kevin is "Da Man" locally for Woodcraft.  (Merry Chistamas, cutie! 8))

[khanson]

Super Dave,

Weber, Hitchthingy and I are actually heading to an area around Omaha to go dirtbiking Friday.  

I have to get my fix in, otherwise I might be standing in line at the local methadone clinic waiting for my fix to get rid of withdrawals.

[Super Dave]

You guys sux.

I left Omaha Tuesday.  I've got to watch my boys on Friday.

Where are you going?

I had a dream I was racing rally cars.  My wife was too.  She did pretty well.  It must have been all the Merlo I drank for Christmas.... ::)

[Decreasing_Dave]

However, a bike that works better is easier to control more consistently at a faster pace.

So, terror that some riders have going a certain lap time can be eliminated with some changes.  Stock suspension is LIMITED.  The components really don't move enough fluid.  The spring RATES are usually incorrect.  And how the bike carries itself geometrically just isn't right.  Making the bike a bit better in the geometry department will make a great difference.

I can really mess up a bike's stock suspension to help a rider understand some of that, but you really can't make it the way it should be.  

You can buy the correct springs, but then you still don't have the ability to change the rear ride height.  And we're back to that moving fluid thing again.

I hate to tell someone that they have to spend money, but it's better to understand a bit more about the suspension now, rather than struggle over it later.

S. Dave, this brings up a question.  I have what I believe to be a totally stock suspension in my R6.  I ran 2 different tracks last year, Vegas and Firebird.  Vegas is pretty smooth, it was my first race, and all I did was set up the suspension a little stiffer than what was called for in the shop manual (plus very little tweeking).  I didn't have ANY issues with the suspension at Vegas or Firebird (Firebird's a lot bumpier).

Could it be that as a street rider, having to deal with a "general" set-up to meet the needs of every road, that I'm just not as sensitive to having to have a perfect suspension set-up??  Or did I just get lucky??


Signed,
"That wasn't me chattering off turn 6"

D. Dave

[Super Dave]

Ya know, the R6 is just pretty forgiving.  I think, because the swingarm angle is so long, it is not as sensative at some of the other bikes.

No one ever crashed because of too little dampening.  So, a little tweaking?

Can you tell me EXACTLY what you did?  

[Decreasing_Dave]

Well, I'll try, but it was a couple fo months ago.  Yes I took notes, but they're not handy right now.

I took the stock settings as they are in the shop manual.  I then added 2 to the preload both front and rear. Rear =2 "ramps"  Front = 2 lines

Knowing that this will cause much more rebound, I added some rebound dampening (ie. 3 clicks each end)  The compression, I think I just bumped up 1 click on each end.

I went racing.

When I got to Vegas, I was in the line at Tech with another R6 in front of me, an expert.  I noticed that when he got off of his bike, that he had substantially more sag than I did.  After tech, I went back and dropped the preload 1 each front and rear.  I left the rebound, because even with dropping the preload, the bike fell good on static tests (ie. balanced, not springing back obnoctiously fast)

I know that to someone like yourself, that this whole process probably sounds very Mickey Mouse.  Again, I'm just a fast street rider.  I only had to get my suspension close, up until now.  

I need to get myself one of them edjumakasions.

Thanks for the help,
D. Dave

[Decreasing_Dave]

Hey S. Dave, one more thing.

I just bought a set of RaceTech .95 front springs.  I weigh about 200 with gear, give or take a few.

I understand that the R6 has some serious rebound dampening issues.  Can this be cured, or at least, treated with a lighter weight fork oil??

If so, what would you recommend?

Thanks again,  I wish I was closer to your region so that I could take advantage of your school.  Do you teach spelling and grammer, 'cuz I apparently suck at them too. :D :D

D. Dave

[Super Dave]

Thanks again,  I wish I was closer to your region so that I could take advantage of your school.  Do you teach spelling and grammer, 'cuz I apparently suck at them too. :D :D

D. Dave

LOL!

Wow!  .95's is all they recommend for 2 bills?  I think I ran .95's in my ZX6R, but I was about 160.  

The rebound thing is because of this needle valve inside that is shaped like a peg, not a needle.  It just blows.  

The way you have it set up, it sounds like you have no free sag, if you're having to put in dampening to slow it down.

The spring rate never changes when you preload anything;  the ride height just changes.  It doesn't make the shock longer, but it can prevent some full travel in the back.  It kind of makes it a little spring bound where the suspension has a hard time traveling the full distance while it's compressed.  

So, that can keep the GEOMETRY of the motorcycle in a "better" place.

Everyone seems to have an idea on how much sag a bike needs to have.  Unfortunately, if the geometry of the bike is stock, the weight bais is probably all wrong, so setting up the sag "correctly" won't give it good feel.  The R6 isn't so bad because the long swingarm allows it to carry much of the weight forward anyway, when compared to other bikes.

A suspended race bike can have the length of the shock altered so that the geometry is better.  Then the correct springs can be added, then the correct sag.  So, what you were probably seeing was more sag than you because of those changes.

If you were adding a bunch of rebound at the back, you've probably got the bike over preloaded.  The spring is overcoming the dampening.  

None of what you're doing is "right", but I've done the same things to some bikes to try to achieve better geometry so that the rider could get a better feel for the bike.  It does make it stop better, turn better, and all to a certain point.  An ultra fast guy would begin to complain, and you probably do also.  It probably feels like there is just something that is not right.

That sound right?

[Decreasing_Dave]

WOW!!!  WHAT A MESS!!!

It sounds about right.

Maybe I'll just remove the suspension and install struts on both ends.  Then I can complain about the tires.  At least I have a clue about them!!

As for the .95s, I went off of the charts.  It actually said that the .95s were a little heavy for me.  I guess I'll see.

The fork oil that is recomended in the manual is "01" .  What is that comparable to??

Thanks again,
D. Dave

[Super Dave]

01 oil?  IDUNNO.  What's that?  

The trick with stock suspension is that the valving doesn't move enough fluid.  That's why Traxxion Dynamics and Race Tech have those little thingies.  

Someone makes a better spring.  I'd try Traxxion or maybe Hyperpro, the Shock company.   They have lots of different springs, etc.  Might be worth trying.

[Decreasing_Dave]

Thanks for all of your help. :)

D. Dave