total loss ignition

[lilroy]

JeF4y,
I hear ya man!!  I really don't need any more power, or spool up for that matter.  I'm mostly interested in learning more and more about the sport.  That said, am I wrong to think that if a given bike accelerates quicker it would result in a quicker lap time?  I guess I'm just intrigued by the idea like yourself only I have very little racing experience.

As I write this I am day dreaming about trying this at Road America at a track day just for fun. ;D

[Jeff]

lilroy, you're not completely wrong to think that quicker accelleration = quicker lap times, but it's not completely correct either.

If you make a bike unrideable due to too much instant power, you're not going to turn a faster laptime.  It's a balancing act.

The NSR-500 was a prime example.  The HRC Japanese think-tank was so concerned with HP that they made a bike which virtually couldn't be ridden.  The RC-211V makes less HP but turns faster laptimes.

The idea is to get a bike that will accellerate as fast as you can PERSONALLY use the power.  If you're not committed to dealing with replacing tires more often, or the additional maintenance, etc, I wouldn't even think about it.

Likewise, if you're brand new to the sport, spend your time/money/concerns on actually racing instead of something like this.

[BRG]

What does "Total Loss" mean? The flywheel no longer charges the battery. Usually the flywheel on a total loss system has been replaced with a light weight aluminum flywheel, without the charging magnets. Quicker acceleration is the main advantage of a total loss system since you have lightened the moving mass on the end of the crankshaft. The drawback is that you have to keep an eye on the charge level of the battery - and how often depends on how many times you use the starter (a big drain on the battery)

1hp maybe 2hp if that.

5ph no way!

Baker

[fourandsix]

Actually,the more weight you remove from the crank will cause your drive to be crappier on a big motor. When graves was running the FX class on their big bike they found the tire spun up too quickly with a lightened crank. So the went back to a heavier set up.We ran plenty of F2's and it was about 1hp with the rotor on the crank. We also tried it on the ZX6r and R6 it was about 1 to 2 hp. It also dropped the torque though.

[lilroy]

These are all very helpful replies!!  I will be posting more questions as they come.  I'll try to research old threads for info before starting a new thread.  It seems fairly obvious at my level I need not worry about this type of mod and concentrate on more important things.  More questions to come about those more important things. :)

[cardzilla]

I'm not sure why the gains on the R1 were so substantial, but I say again... 5 HP, not 1 or 2.  Jeremy Toye had my bike in '04 and realized a 4 HP gain if I'm not mistaken (different dyno).  

The weight of the added battery juice (about 2.5 pounds) is far outweighed by the generator, starter, stator, rectifier and the associated gears.  I run a data logger and some other gizmos and the voltage stays steady for 30 minutes (haven't tested longer yet).

[Jeff]

Disclaimer - I'm speaking of theories which I've researched and wracked my brains over and have no real knowledge (yet) of this.  Jim, I'm hoping you can comment with knowlege if I'm wrong.

If you do this, you're looking at a couple of forms of resistance that can be worked with.

1 - Magnetic resistance.  This is the resistance found between the flywheel turning around the outside of the stator/generator.  This resistance is HUGE.  If you were to hold the flywheel in one hand and the generator in the other, you likely could not turn the two by hand.

2 - Weight resistance.  This is the reciprocating(sp?) mass of the flywheel itself.  The flywheel on a 600rr weighs in the neighborhood of 7lbs.  That's DIRECTLY on the end of the crank.

Now, you can remove the generator and leave the flywheel on which will remove the magnetic resistance and give you quicker accelleration.  

You could also take off the flywheel as well as removing the generator...  

HOWEVER, the problems that you're going to run into are:

1 - Wheel spin.  The bike may be a b1tch to launch and/or out of corners because it spins up so fast.

2 - Loss of torque, or a poor running motor.  Remove enough weight from the crank and the motor cannot stay spinning, overcoming the compression of itself.  This would be especially true of anything with increased compression.

So, therein lies the rub...  If you do this, it's not an exact science that could be applied to ever bike across the board.  One would have to play with combinations of what to do, including taking a flywheel and milling it down, or having some other weight in the place of the flywheel.

In case you haven't realized yet, almost everything that you do with a bike is a trade off of one kind or another.  It's determining what the best trade is, that will be key to success...

[mike_rbm]

Good points JeF4y. Which is why I'm going back to my initial statement. "Unless your a pro AMA guy (or Ed Key  ;D ) I wouldn't get into it. 95% of us aren't going to turn a faster lap because of this." Unless you have years of experience and your bike is honestly whats holding you back from the championship - pass on this performance upgrade. Your money and time would be better spent at the Schwantz school.

[gma]

To answer what "Total Loss" means - it refers to the total loss of electrical charge from the electrical system - the use of electricity to fire the plugs with no replenishment.

Jeff spoke accurately of the Hall Effect which resists the movement of a magnet through a coil - a HUGE horsepower-robber which the TL system overcomes. Look into modern roller-coasters - they use the Hall Effect as a braking system to stop the cars as they return to the dog house.

While the conversion can be done on any machine, those that benefit most from this are the GP machines - where the same weight or hp represents a larger percentage of the whole owing to the smaller bikes / riders commonly found in GPs.

From what I've observed, and regardless of the bike; there is some measurable benefit - but unless you race to the gram of weight on your bike or foot of track length (Ed - you rat bstrd), then you won't see enough improvement to justify the investment of engineering the solution.

My vote is to race the bike as it is and pick up chicks - leave the TL system to the riders who don't even understand it and who get paid by the factory to never understand it.

Besides, most chicks won't even understand the difference and will still be impressed with you in your leathers ... save the money on the TL system and spend it on beer for the chicks ...

Just my thoughts for what they're worth ...

HW

[K3 Chris Onwiler]

then you won't see enough improvement to justify the investment of engineering the solution.

Step 1:  Remove alternator.
Step 2: install home made plug where alternator used to be so oil doesn't pour out.
Step 3: Add charging lead to battery so you can plug in without having to remove seat.
Step 4:  Charge battery after each session.
Not much engineering involved.  Of course, if the bike has it's alternator on the crank end, you have to heat the flywheel and pry the magnets off, but then you don't have to engineer much of a plug.  An extra bit of silicone where the wires came out of the cover will do.  As an added benefit if the magnets were on the flywheel, now you've got less flywheel weight, and the motor revs up faster.
And yes, it DOES make a noticable difference.  On a lightweight bike, you haven't got that much HP to start with, so gaining 2-3 HP is enough for a drafting pass down the longest straight that you couldn't make before.
How many people run big $$$ race gas to pick up 2-3 horses?