Uh-Oh, an Oil Thread

[skara]

i use 15w50 auto mobil one seems to work better
also tried 15w40 klotz syn didnt work foamed up
and made shifting worse

[tzracer]

Car oil vs motorcycle oil.

The main difference that is getting the attention of motorcycle manufacturers is the EC (energy conserving) designation. These oils may contain friction modifiers, these modifiers can cause clutch and starter clutch slippage. I think most if not all manufacturers recommend SG oils for this reason (my 2000 rc51 says SG). This is why they are pushing for a designation for motorcycle oils (the Japanese already have one JASO-Japanese Automobile Standards Organization- MA and MB).

Auto oils are now designated as SL.

A good auto oil that is not energy conserving (mostly 15Wxx and higher) will probably not cause you any problems. Some non EC oils may still have some of the friction modifiers - may be cheaper to use same additive package in all oils a manufacturer produces.

Synthetic oils handle heat better than dino oils. This is the reason I use synthetic oils. Synthetic blends are a good alternative for the budget minded.

The choice is yours, car oils are cheaper, but could cause clutch problems. Has anyone had trouble with a car oil in a bike?

MCN (Motorcycle COnsumer News) just started a series of articles on oil beginning in their January issue. They suggest visiting
http://www.lubrizoil.com
http://www.lubelink.com
http://www.api.org
for more info.

[h00ktern]

I use Amsoil, and occasional oil analysis.

If you *really* want to know the condition of your oil, try using an oil testing center. They can tell you exactly what condition your oil is in. Amsoil has +-$20.00 postage prepaid kits for this purpose.

Safe trips,
Dave

[Super Dave]

The evil oil thread...

Here's some good oil info....

http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO/F_oil_facts.html

MC oil has some different things in it that car oil doesn't.  But some car oils have it.

Whether synthetics do better than petroleums, that's still an issue that is not clear.

Synthetics can burn.  So, they can leave residue.  When they burn, they are contributing to heat in the engine.

I was sponsored by a very well known synthetic oil company at one time.  For break-in, the recommended using a particular petroleum based oil because, "...it has better film strength than most synthetics."

Film strength and wear....

Ok, so we've all seen the commercials with cars running that were treated with x brand whatever.  They remove the oil, then run it around the track just fine.  I believe that the link I have refers to the Briggs test where their engines were ran for 20 hours without oil.  I've heard those studies from others.

Personally, I had Power Mist Racing Fuels make me an oil.  My choice was a petroleum based oil, with additives for a wet clutch and a linked transmission, fortified with castor.  Ended up being a SAE10 weight oil.  Did it work?  Sure it didn't blow up.  Better performance?  Maybe.

How often to change oil?  Well, you can't see when the oil is "dirty".  So, you change it.  But, there are those that change oil rather infrequently.  One person comes to mind that makes his living racing for contingency money.  In one bike, he changes his oil maybe once a season.

Would he be better off changing it more often?  Probably.

Oil cools, cleans, and lubricates.  I think the most important thing is to have oil in the motor.  Friction is the enemy, but I have yet to really see a product that substantially reduces friction in any motor to make any incredible difference.

Lighter weight oils...

That's an interesting one.  Once I used a SAE0W oil.  The bike was hard to start.  If you don't have to push start your bike, then this can be an issue.  A motorcycle starter needs a little friction to maintain the starter engagement.  On that particular bike, the engine would just about start, then the starter would disengage.

That make this all clear as mud? :o

[sdiver68]

BMW, Porsche, Ferrari all specify Synthetics in their cars, as does virtually every other race-experienced car company.  Those companies know more about Racing and Engines than the rest of the world combined, except maybe Honda which also specifies synthetic in their high performance cars.  

However, both oils are good enough that  making sure the bike has enough is the most important point.  Regardless of which side of the fence you sit on.

As for clutch slipping...I've never had that problem with Mobil 1.

SD, I find it interesting that you posted a link to an article that directly counters what you said in your post about Synthetics burning and leaving deposits???  Can you clear that up for me?

[Super Dave]

I won't agree with everything they say...

Two strokes...

More oil makes more HP.  But the synthetic manufactures make you run about 100:1.  This is there way of trying to burn it out of existance, and reduce the amount in the engine as a deposit.  

Oils sold as synthetics are not all synthetic.  If they were, they amount in the engine would be reduced quickly.  I can't give you a site for that, or any specific study, but I do know that from experiences I have had with those in the racing industry.  I work with a slew of different people and different kinds of racing as a seller of Power Mist Racing Fuels (and lubricants for that matter.)

[Super Dave]

Intesting post on another board I'm on from someone I kind of know...


In my work, I deal with quality-control laboratories for various products from cement to.....motor oil. As an interesting note, one of my customers happens to be a Shell oil company blending plant. They take the bulk, base oil and mix in the additives to get the final product.

They currently blend Shell, Havoline, Quaker State, and Pennzoil; all from the same base oil. Shell and Havoline are IDENTICAL; Quaker State and Pennzoil are very slightly different. According to the lab technicians, the differences are insignificant.

They also tell me that the synthetics that they have tested are absolutely no better than the naturals. Not one of them runs synthetics in their own vehicles.

Your call.

Lane
_________________
I know you believe that you understand what you think that I said; but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

   I have a slight twist to this. Most vehicle manufacturers suggest not using synthetic oil until XXX amount of break-in miles. The reason for this is to allow the rings to seat properly and seal the combustion chamber pressure where it belongs and reduce blow by into the crankcase. After this break-in period the manufacturer feels the rings are seated enough for proper operation of the vehicle. This is when you put synthetic in the engine to reduce friction and help the rings last for longer. I believe that this is correct and generally accepted.
   My brother races his car at the local drag strip for nothing more than bragging rights as to who has the fastest car in the area. His street car is not narrowed or charged and uses a 300Hp Nitrous plate system. His car does low 9 second 1/4 miles and he drives (not trailers) it to the track and around town often.
   Now for the twist. For the very reason that your supposed to switch to synthetic the local fast street guys do not! The increased friction of the rings causes them to bite harder and seal the combustion chamber better therefore increasing compression and increasing power. The downside to this is that you need to replace the rings more often to maintain this higher compression. We both have noticed differences in our 2cycle snowmobile and jet-ski performance also.
   This is for the person seeking every possible horsepower that they can squeeze out of an engine and will increase the amount of rebuild service required long term.
   Most conventional/synthetic oil tests seem to focus on friction/wear characteristics and not so much on power production in this regard (though some tests focus on increased power thru synthetic in engines with miles on them - due to the engine having lower compression therefore producing less power and being more affected by friction).
   Has anyone else experienced this or read any tests concerning this?

[Nate R]

Usually, I've heard of a power gain.

The final word that I needed to hear came from a geologist/engineer at Chevron.

Basically, I'll be using Mobil 1 15W50, and changing it every 2 race weekends. I'll be using Shell gasoline. It has a better, cleaner burn than anything  else locally available. (ie: a better additive package.)

[TreyBone]

I use Amsoil Synthetic for V twins. I change it every race weekend

[Super Dave]

Usually, I've heard of a power gain.

The final word that I needed to hear came from a geologist/engineer at Chevron.

Basically, I'll be using Mobil 1 15W50, and changing it every 2 race weekends. I'll be using Shell gasoline. It has a better, cleaner burn than anything  else locally available. (ie: a better additive package.)

Why is he suggesting such a heavy oil?  50 weight oil went out when we stopped racing air/oil cooled GSXR's about ten years ago.

One of my instructor is sponsored by Citgo Petroleum.  The oil they make him is 5w30.  Heavy oil is drag/friction.  And again, my oil was SAE10.

As for gasoline, that's a crock.

Because you go to a Shell station does not necessarily mean that they actually have Shell in the tank.  Fuel retailers sell fuel.  If they don't have any, they can't make the pennies on the gallon that they make.  So, the guys buy fuel from each other.

About ten years ago, the additive packages were different.  The clean air acts of the past ten to five years have completely made all of the speciality pump gases basically similar.

And as for someone's unleaded burning cleaner?  That's a funny one too.  Unleadeds burn rather un-uniformly in the combustion chamber.  A leaded would be a better choice, if you could get a good one.  Most leaded fuels that are easily available are using racing fuel technology from the '70's. They usually burn slow, with heat, and a lot of debris.  Still probably not as much as your unleaded.  There are some good ones:  Power Mist (I sell that) and VP make a good product.  They both make leaded fuels that work well and that are reasonable in cost.

Nutec is pretty hyper and is buying teams.  But one of their additives causes build up in the carburetor.  I believe that the product that they are using that causes that is an octane reducer that was used many years ago in fuel to increase octane, when fuel was 40 to 60 MON.

But back to fuels...

If you do any experimenting, you must remember to watch the specific gravity, the weight of the fuel, and the oxygen content.  Given the same jet size, a fuel of a different weight can make the motor run leaner or richer.  Additionally, oxygen additives will make it run leaner.  

We're getting onto another topic, eh?

[the_weggie_man]

And anyone using Nutec or other race fuels remember to flush your engine by running unleaded or leaded through the system after each race weekend.  Race fuels are very caustic and eat the insides of engines if left in there between race weekends. Just a way to keep your fresh engine fresh a bit longer.