Uh-Oh, an Oil Thread

[Nate R]

OK, A few questions:

How often are you guys changing the oil or filter, and why that interval?

Which oil do you use?

What do you think would be better: Buying a good synth, and changing it every 2-3 weekends, or any ol' dino oil, and changing it every weekend?

(A weekend consisting of Saturday and Sunday practice, and 4 races, with one of them being a 1/2 hr race)


I'm not sure what I'm going to do as far as which oil and how often to change it. Just looking for suggestions, and reasons why.

[Eddie#200]

Use oil, change it often.  Synth is ok but isn't a requirement to go racing.

It doesn't matter what you use if you keep it changed.

[Litespeed]

I change every other weekend and use Motul 5100.  I was going to change every weekend but the oil doesn't really look to be dirty enough to change.  Keep in mind also that the endurance racers use the oil for 6 hours at a time and don't really see any oil related issues.

[KBOlsen]

Pennzoil and a filter every weekend.

[sportbikepete]

It is cheaper to change your oil & filter after every weekend than a motor rebuild sooner rather than later. I use Motorex synthetic and the oil filter from the factory.

[FUBAR606]

I change oil/filter every 3-4 race weekends (all day practice and at least 3 races a weekend), but more often during the height of summer. And I run synthetic Redline race 40wt.

I was using OEM filters, but recently switched to K&N supplied by Lockhart Phillips. As a Team Privateer member, I get it round about the same price as dealership OEM filters. And I like the fact it has a safety wire hole already available. I also buy the oil from LP, which I get in bulk to lower cost.

[Baltobuell]

MOBIL 1! Had a friend say his bike wasn't running right, tried it again the next practice, still something not right. Turned out the oil pump gear was sheared off and it ran dry for 2 practices. It was fine after replacing the pump gears. That stuff must be good, real good. Change it often anyway.

[skara]

I was using golden spectro 15w40 in my 94 f2 until last year during the heat of the summer i started missing shifts so mobil 1 was reccomended by another racer at the track and it helped drmatically also like the k&n filters for the safety wire hole 8)

[OmniGLH]

I'd change mine every 2 weekends.  I've had excellent luck with the Motul synthetic (5800 I think?)  I'm curious to try the Mobil-1, but haven't heard enough about it yet to convince me to switch.

[sdiver68]

Mobil 1 every 3rd Weekend or so.  That includes practice days, etc...

Synthetic is to dino oil what disk brakes are to drum brakes.  There really is no comparison.  

[Steviebee]

Are you guys using teh Mobil 1 that you got form an auto parts store. Or the one for motorcycles (i've only seen it once, dont even know if they make it anymore ) ???

[sdiver68]

Auto Mobil 1.

I saw an independent chemist report that showed the different additives and formulations and stuff of the different Mobil oils and a few others.  Basically, the "Performance" Auto stuff and the Cycle stuff were the same.  Mobil supposedly has reformulated since then...but I'm betting its nothing but BNG, as Super Dave would say.

[skara]

i use 15w50 auto mobil one seems to work better
also tried 15w40 klotz syn didnt work foamed up
and made shifting worse

[tzracer]

Car oil vs motorcycle oil.

The main difference that is getting the attention of motorcycle manufacturers is the EC (energy conserving) designation. These oils may contain friction modifiers, these modifiers can cause clutch and starter clutch slippage. I think most if not all manufacturers recommend SG oils for this reason (my 2000 rc51 says SG). This is why they are pushing for a designation for motorcycle oils (the Japanese already have one JASO-Japanese Automobile Standards Organization- MA and MB).

Auto oils are now designated as SL.

A good auto oil that is not energy conserving (mostly 15Wxx and higher) will probably not cause you any problems. Some non EC oils may still have some of the friction modifiers - may be cheaper to use same additive package in all oils a manufacturer produces.

Synthetic oils handle heat better than dino oils. This is the reason I use synthetic oils. Synthetic blends are a good alternative for the budget minded.

The choice is yours, car oils are cheaper, but could cause clutch problems. Has anyone had trouble with a car oil in a bike?

MCN (Motorcycle COnsumer News) just started a series of articles on oil beginning in their January issue. They suggest visiting
http://www.lubrizoil.com
http://www.lubelink.com
http://www.api.org
for more info.

[h00ktern]

I use Amsoil, and occasional oil analysis.

If you *really* want to know the condition of your oil, try using an oil testing center. They can tell you exactly what condition your oil is in. Amsoil has +-$20.00 postage prepaid kits for this purpose.

Safe trips,
Dave

[Super Dave]

The evil oil thread...

Here's some good oil info....

http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO/F_oil_facts.html

MC oil has some different things in it that car oil doesn't.  But some car oils have it.

Whether synthetics do better than petroleums, that's still an issue that is not clear.

Synthetics can burn.  So, they can leave residue.  When they burn, they are contributing to heat in the engine.

I was sponsored by a very well known synthetic oil company at one time.  For break-in, the recommended using a particular petroleum based oil because, "...it has better film strength than most synthetics."

Film strength and wear....

Ok, so we've all seen the commercials with cars running that were treated with x brand whatever.  They remove the oil, then run it around the track just fine.  I believe that the link I have refers to the Briggs test where their engines were ran for 20 hours without oil.  I've heard those studies from others.

Personally, I had Power Mist Racing Fuels make me an oil.  My choice was a petroleum based oil, with additives for a wet clutch and a linked transmission, fortified with castor.  Ended up being a SAE10 weight oil.  Did it work?  Sure it didn't blow up.  Better performance?  Maybe.

How often to change oil?  Well, you can't see when the oil is "dirty".  So, you change it.  But, there are those that change oil rather infrequently.  One person comes to mind that makes his living racing for contingency money.  In one bike, he changes his oil maybe once a season.

Would he be better off changing it more often?  Probably.

Oil cools, cleans, and lubricates.  I think the most important thing is to have oil in the motor.  Friction is the enemy, but I have yet to really see a product that substantially reduces friction in any motor to make any incredible difference.

Lighter weight oils...

That's an interesting one.  Once I used a SAE0W oil.  The bike was hard to start.  If you don't have to push start your bike, then this can be an issue.  A motorcycle starter needs a little friction to maintain the starter engagement.  On that particular bike, the engine would just about start, then the starter would disengage.

That make this all clear as mud? :o

[sdiver68]

BMW, Porsche, Ferrari all specify Synthetics in their cars, as does virtually every other race-experienced car company.  Those companies know more about Racing and Engines than the rest of the world combined, except maybe Honda which also specifies synthetic in their high performance cars.  

However, both oils are good enough that  making sure the bike has enough is the most important point.  Regardless of which side of the fence you sit on.

As for clutch slipping...I've never had that problem with Mobil 1.

SD, I find it interesting that you posted a link to an article that directly counters what you said in your post about Synthetics burning and leaving deposits???  Can you clear that up for me?

[Super Dave]

I won't agree with everything they say...

Two strokes...

More oil makes more HP.  But the synthetic manufactures make you run about 100:1.  This is there way of trying to burn it out of existance, and reduce the amount in the engine as a deposit.  

Oils sold as synthetics are not all synthetic.  If they were, they amount in the engine would be reduced quickly.  I can't give you a site for that, or any specific study, but I do know that from experiences I have had with those in the racing industry.  I work with a slew of different people and different kinds of racing as a seller of Power Mist Racing Fuels (and lubricants for that matter.)

[Super Dave]

Intesting post on another board I'm on from someone I kind of know...


In my work, I deal with quality-control laboratories for various products from cement to.....motor oil. As an interesting note, one of my customers happens to be a Shell oil company blending plant. They take the bulk, base oil and mix in the additives to get the final product.

They currently blend Shell, Havoline, Quaker State, and Pennzoil; all from the same base oil. Shell and Havoline are IDENTICAL; Quaker State and Pennzoil are very slightly different. According to the lab technicians, the differences are insignificant.

They also tell me that the synthetics that they have tested are absolutely no better than the naturals. Not one of them runs synthetics in their own vehicles.

Your call.

Lane
_________________
I know you believe that you understand what you think that I said; but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

   I have a slight twist to this. Most vehicle manufacturers suggest not using synthetic oil until XXX amount of break-in miles. The reason for this is to allow the rings to seat properly and seal the combustion chamber pressure where it belongs and reduce blow by into the crankcase. After this break-in period the manufacturer feels the rings are seated enough for proper operation of the vehicle. This is when you put synthetic in the engine to reduce friction and help the rings last for longer. I believe that this is correct and generally accepted.
   My brother races his car at the local drag strip for nothing more than bragging rights as to who has the fastest car in the area. His street car is not narrowed or charged and uses a 300Hp Nitrous plate system. His car does low 9 second 1/4 miles and he drives (not trailers) it to the track and around town often.
   Now for the twist. For the very reason that your supposed to switch to synthetic the local fast street guys do not! The increased friction of the rings causes them to bite harder and seal the combustion chamber better therefore increasing compression and increasing power. The downside to this is that you need to replace the rings more often to maintain this higher compression. We both have noticed differences in our 2cycle snowmobile and jet-ski performance also.
   This is for the person seeking every possible horsepower that they can squeeze out of an engine and will increase the amount of rebuild service required long term.
   Most conventional/synthetic oil tests seem to focus on friction/wear characteristics and not so much on power production in this regard (though some tests focus on increased power thru synthetic in engines with miles on them - due to the engine having lower compression therefore producing less power and being more affected by friction).
   Has anyone else experienced this or read any tests concerning this?

[Nate R]

Usually, I've heard of a power gain.

The final word that I needed to hear came from a geologist/engineer at Chevron.

Basically, I'll be using Mobil 1 15W50, and changing it every 2 race weekends. I'll be using Shell gasoline. It has a better, cleaner burn than anything  else locally available. (ie: a better additive package.)

[TreyBone]

I use Amsoil Synthetic for V twins. I change it every race weekend

[Super Dave]

Usually, I've heard of a power gain.

The final word that I needed to hear came from a geologist/engineer at Chevron.

Basically, I'll be using Mobil 1 15W50, and changing it every 2 race weekends. I'll be using Shell gasoline. It has a better, cleaner burn than anything  else locally available. (ie: a better additive package.)

Why is he suggesting such a heavy oil?  50 weight oil went out when we stopped racing air/oil cooled GSXR's about ten years ago.

One of my instructor is sponsored by Citgo Petroleum.  The oil they make him is 5w30.  Heavy oil is drag/friction.  And again, my oil was SAE10.

As for gasoline, that's a crock.

Because you go to a Shell station does not necessarily mean that they actually have Shell in the tank.  Fuel retailers sell fuel.  If they don't have any, they can't make the pennies on the gallon that they make.  So, the guys buy fuel from each other.

About ten years ago, the additive packages were different.  The clean air acts of the past ten to five years have completely made all of the speciality pump gases basically similar.

And as for someone's unleaded burning cleaner?  That's a funny one too.  Unleadeds burn rather un-uniformly in the combustion chamber.  A leaded would be a better choice, if you could get a good one.  Most leaded fuels that are easily available are using racing fuel technology from the '70's. They usually burn slow, with heat, and a lot of debris.  Still probably not as much as your unleaded.  There are some good ones:  Power Mist (I sell that) and VP make a good product.  They both make leaded fuels that work well and that are reasonable in cost.

Nutec is pretty hyper and is buying teams.  But one of their additives causes build up in the carburetor.  I believe that the product that they are using that causes that is an octane reducer that was used many years ago in fuel to increase octane, when fuel was 40 to 60 MON.

But back to fuels...

If you do any experimenting, you must remember to watch the specific gravity, the weight of the fuel, and the oxygen content.  Given the same jet size, a fuel of a different weight can make the motor run leaner or richer.  Additionally, oxygen additives will make it run leaner.  

We're getting onto another topic, eh?

[the_weggie_man]

And anyone using Nutec or other race fuels remember to flush your engine by running unleaded or leaded through the system after each race weekend.  Race fuels are very caustic and eat the insides of engines if left in there between race weekends. Just a way to keep your fresh engine fresh a bit longer.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

   Since we are on the subject of fuel now, I had an experience with race fuel myself. I haven't ever used any of the exotic race fuels before but I have used Cam 2 mixed with Amoco Ultimate.
   After racing my new bike for only a season and a half I started experiencing fuel starvation problems toward the end of a race. This would actually get so bad I would have to pull off the track and the bike would not restart for several minutes.
   Investigating the problem I found that my fuel line filter was clogged. After cleaning it I raced again and experienced the problem again. Checking further into the problem I found that the sock type filter on the fuel pump intake inside the gas tank was almost completely blocked with a rust like residue. I cleaned it and looked inside the bottom of the tank with a mirror noticing that the bottom of the tank had a coating of this same residue, so I cleaned that also. I figured that the place I had purchased fuel from had contamination getting in their fuel somehow, so I started getting fuel from a different place. I was able to race a few events before the problem returned and I had all that same residue build-up again.
   I checked the gas tank more completely and found that the upper third of the tank was rusted quite badly. I contacted Suzuki directly and they said it was because the Cam 2 I was using was an oxygenated fuel. They said that this type of fuel will actually start to break down and causes condensation in the tank which will cling to the top of the tank and start rusting it. When I asked why the coating in the tank doesn't prevent this they said that there is no coating in their gas tanks and this is only a problem for people racing and not the general street riding public. They also said that coatings generally won't stand up to the race fuels anyways. I ended up buying a new gas tank!
   I am now very careful to keep the fuel tank as full as possible with regular gas between events to help prevent this.

[Super Dave]

Whoa!

Nutec's problem is really related to Nutec's additive.  I'll leave it at that.  I addressed that above.  If there is a caustic problem, it's a storage problem at either a) the reseller, or b) at home.

Fuel should be stored off the ground.  Most people don't do this.  Put a 2x4 under your drum or a pallett.  You will get water in your fuel if you don't.

Unleaded fuel for the street is all pretty much oxygenated nation wide with MTBE, the oxygenate in racing fuel.  Suzuki's full of it on that one.  Cam 2 is pretty old tech.  That problem would have been something that someone had seen for thirty years.  I haven't seen that.  And I race vintage bikes too.  Street gas is not designed for storage.  It's good for 14 to 28 days.  Racing fuel is designed to be stable.  Sunoco claims that racing fuel is good for two years.  Why, because it doesn't need some components in it that street gas does.  Again, there's nothing particualarly exotic there.

But Cam 2 is bulk fuel.  They make it, it goes in a truck.  That truck might have had heating oil or diesel one week.  Then it goes in someone's tank, rusty or not, different fuel before, etc.  No idea what you're getting.

Which Cam2 were you using specifically?

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

   Super Dave; The Cam 2 I have used in the past was 113 octane if I remember correctly. I don't know anything more specific than that about the fuel. I purchased the fuel from 3 different places; A local dealer, BHF, and Heartland Park. I kind of figured that Suzuki rep was feeding me a load of **** in order to not have to replace a gas tank. As I said previously the upper portion of the inside of my gas tank was rusted quite badly. Strangely enough after replacing my tank I have never had this problem again, though I have used those same suppliers since then. Who knows? I have merely described the experience that I had.
   I purchase my fuel the day before I leave for a race, use plastic fuel containers, keep the containers in the back of my trailer (off the ground), and use any remaining fuel in my street bike - so fuel storage between events, by me, is non-existent.
   What I meant by exotic fuels was fuels that you generally cannot obtain thru means other than ordering them (unless a dealer just so happens to be near you). I have tried to stay away from the ultra expensive fuels in order to put that money toward more track time and tires. I am aware that the newer race fuels are better than what I have used in the past and I would see a significant gain if I used them.
   Thanks for the fuel info, I appreciate it! Maybe I will try them out this upcoming season.

[Super Dave]

  Super Dave; The Cam 2 I have used in the past was 113 octane if I remember correctly. I don't know anything more specific than that about the fuel. I purchased the fuel from 3 different places; A local dealer, BHF, and Heartland Park. I kind of figured that Suzuki rep was feeding me a load of **** in order to not have to replace a gas tank. As I said previously the upper portion of the inside of my gas tank was rusted quite badly. Strangely enough after replacing my tank I have never had this problem again, though I have used those same suppliers since then. Who knows? I have merely described the experience that I had.
   I purchase my fuel the day before I leave for a race, use plastic fuel containers, keep the containers in the back of my trailer (off the ground), and use any remaining fuel in my street bike - so fuel storage between events, by me, is non-existent.
   What I meant by exotic fuels was fuels that you generally cannot obtain thru means other than ordering them (unless a dealer just so happens to be near you). I have tried to stay away from the ultra expensive fuels in order to put that money toward more track time and tires. I am aware that the newer race fuels are better than what I have used in the past and I would see a significant gain if I used them.
   Thanks for the fuel info, I appreciate it! Maybe I will try them out this upcoming season.

Ah, you have a big mistake in racing fuels.  Plastic containers breath.  Many of the aromatics, and especially oxygenates that might be in the fuel, evaporate through the porus plastic container.  Liquid fuel will not leak out, but....

Mixing this fuel with street gas is a good thing.  I can give you reasons why.  You just have to make sure that you do it in a consistent manner.

Significant gain...

That's an open ended statement.  Depending upon your lap times, there might not be enough of a significant gain to warrant the use of a more exotic fuel.  I can give you an additive that you can put in a racing fuel or street gas that you will feel.

As my Power Mist stuff....

Yes, it has to be ordered, but I'm the distributor, so I keep stuff on hand.  Consistency is Power Mist's big thing.  It's great for power, but if you can't have any consistency, who cares.  

Having to deal with different racing disiplines, I've got lots of stories about other fuels.  Again, that's another post.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

   Super Dave; when I stopped racing at the end of 1999 my best lap times on my '96 GSXR 750 were high 1:16 laps at BHF. Though not one of the fastest guys, I usually would finish around 5th - give or take a few positions. I have an '02 GSXR 750 that I will be racing this upcoming season and I still am not sure if I will mess with any of the racing fuels or not with this bike. I don't want to mess with a race fuel that gives me only a minimal gain, but ultimately may damage the engine. On the other hand, if it was safe to use and didn't require me to take out a mortgage to use the stuff, then mabey. Since I am not one of the front runners, and I go to almost every event by myself, I have a tendency to be slightly conservative when I race. For this reason I would be concerned if the better fuels provide more of a snap in the acceleration or if it's smooth power gains from the stuff (don't like getting high-sided coming out of a turn from the rear tire having a mind of its own). Don't mean to sound like a wuss or anything, just need to be able to drive myself back to the homestead after an event. Also, your suggesting using steel gas cans? And is using 'Stable' fuel stabilizer in pump gas ok during the winter hibernation (heard you should keep the tank full also)? Or should I empty the tank and fog it? Thanks for your input into an area that I am not overly educated in.

[Super Dave]

I've used Stabil with good results.  I usually leave it full then.  Less air in the tank.  

I've left my race fuel in the tank no problem too for the winter.

As for harming an engine with fuel...

Fuel is stupid.  It only does what you tell it.  If you burn down and engine, there is something mechanically wrong or it was tuned way too lean.

I can pretty much put TO137 straight into my tank no problem as a replacement for pump gas.  Pump gas is unleaded with an oxygenate (1.5 to 3% oxygen) with a specific gravity of about .755.  TO137 is leaded has 5% oxygen and weighs in at .745.  It is lighter than street gas, but has more oxygen.  So, that should make it leaner.  But the lead allows the fuel mixture to burn more completely.  But oxygenates like to burn at a richer mixture when compared to gasoline.  In the end, it about evens out.  

But, that's what your up against.  

Acceleration is the key.  I do have a mix that I make using a combination of several fuels an oxygenate.  Works really well.  Should be a pour in for gasoline and it won't break the bank.  Gets the bike off the corner.  

Steel cans.  Yes.  Keep 'em off the ground.  Keep 'em clean.  For lawn mowers, plastic is fine.  But for racing, plastic containers are only good for measuring.

[GSXR RACER MIKE]

   I am also curious about dyno tuning. I am planning on having my bike dyno tuned and would imagine that you obviously have to have the fuel your going to be racing with in the bike during this. Any thoughts on this?
   Thanks for the advice. I will look ya up if I decide to use the better stuff.

[Super Dave]

Another can of worms....

First, I think Dynojet dynos are too simple, and that they cannot provide duplicateable runs.  They are worthless as real tuning tools.

They now have load control models.  But the load controls overheat...  Again no duplication.

You need to find someone with a dyno like Factory Pro sells, Mustang, or Land and Sea.  Otherwise, I think it's a waste.

My GSXR600 ran basically stock for the two years I used it.  No Power Commander or Yosh PMS, or whatever.  You've got to find someone that could actually do it.

I can give you an opinion of who I would go to.  E-mail me.

Preferably, if you were to use the fuel, you'd want to tune it for that.  Again, drop me a note.