Points updated - inaccurate

[Jeff]

The midwest & gp points are updated as of today, but assuming that Autobahn was indeed a double-points weekend as my schedule says it is, they are incorrect.  They appear to have only been calculated for a single-points event.

I've notified Linda & Ryan who were updating them.

Just wanted to give everyone the FYI so nobody gets too excited.

[tstruyk]

AM MWSS has been jacked up since Barber... they posted results instead of accumulated points... I think they just added points to Barber results when this was updated  :-/

[R1abuser]

Ohhhh wow, someone is messing with me !   :o

[grasshopper]

I sincerely do not give a flying rats a$$ anymore  :)

I'll just race another year of amatuer  ;D

[BRG]

somethings not right. you have to be kidding me!!!

Jeff,
This is an ongoing issue, it has not changed and never will. I am sure you know this, just add it to the list.

Baker

[DanO966]

true true...

[Super Dave]

 ;D

[Jeff]

Hey, I've got an idea!  Let's all jump on the CCS SUCKS bandwagon!  That'll get it fixed!

Look.  They have been keeping up with the points pretty good this year.  Much better than last year, and even better than the year before.

I've asked for and have received positive action from CCS employees.  I'm sorry they can't personally serve everyone as well as they apparently should.

The basic jist here is that:

1.  The points are updated!  Cool!!
2.  The points update had an error - Bad
3.  The error was reported - Good
4.  The report was acknowledged and they are working on it - Good

That's all...

Or we could go over support from other companies related to racing if everyone wanted to...

[r1owner]

How about this Jeff.

The lap times are computerized right?

The finishing positions are entered into a computer somewhere right?

Let me ask you how hard it is to press one little button to get the correct results posted to the web by updating a database.

There is simply no excuse whatsoever for them to not have those points correct and posted by the Monday following a race weekend.

None....

[R1abuser]

For the money we pay them they should get it figured out real quick... its surely not that hard... like r1owner said, its a database...

[251am]

Hey, I've got an idea!  Let's all jump on the CCS SUCKS bandwagon!  That'll get it fixed!

Look.  They have been keeping up with the points pretty good this year.  Much better than last year, and even better than the year before.

I've asked for and have received positive action from CCS employees.  I'm sorry they can't personally serve everyone as well as they apparently should.

The basic jist here is that:

1.  The points are updated!  Cool!!
2.  The points update had an error - Bad
3.  The error was reported - Good
4.  The report was acknowledged and they are working on it - Good

That's all...

Or we could go over support from other companies related to racing if everyone wanted to...

  Jeff, there is no bandwagon, pitchforks, or torches. Thanks for reporting the inconsistencies to Ft. Worth. There's room for improvement and here in the forum there's room for some venting too. Why is it you would rather keep these situations from being transparent?

  I understand your wanting to keep everything on a positive note with a constructive direction, but you're on the verge of telling people to keep it to themselves by not saying anything. If you have recommendations for better handling these grievances spit them out, please. Otherwise, as far as people venting are concerned, let them vent; it's better than them not coming back to the track.  

      

[BRG]

Jeff,
I hate to say this but if you think any changes will happen and be consistent you are a fool.

(don't take this as an personal insult, it is not ment to be. I respect your effort but sadly it WILL be a waste of your time in the long run.)

Baker

[Jeff]

Brian, over the past 5 years I've seen things improve and things stay the same.  All in all, I suppose I could b1tch about it, but I'd rather try to be constructive with solutions that can work.

Todd, personally, I'd rather see things get better than get worse.  Complaining has historically never resolved a problem.  Focusing on what is going right and exploiting those things works.  I guess I'm the odd man out.

R1owner.  if it were really that simple, do you not think they would do it?  Do you have any idea of the software they use for timing/scoring/grids/results,   and then for online posting?  

I personally don't have a clue on the software they use.  While the concept you mention sounds and IS technically feasible and realistic, I do not know the constraints in the system they are using, nor do I know the corporate issues with spending on development for a decent system which will provide this functionality.

I don't know...  I'll keep doing what I can.  If nothing changes, I can still say I did my part to make things better vice just b1tching about things.

[AZ-MilleR]

It can be fixed.  This past weekend the Southwest region was told it will become a seperate affiliate and not part of the overall CCE envelope and announced a new website.  On it, they have all the points for the year including the Vegas twin sprints that just happened this past weekend.  They had them up there on Tuesday.  Kudos to the Southwest group, but it does show with dedicated people it can happen.  The SW region's new website is at:
http://www.ccssw.com.  

[extrakt0r]

It can be fixed.  This past weekend the Southwest region was told it will become a seperate affiliate and not part of the overall CCE envelope and announced a new website.  On it, they have all the points for the year including the Vegas twin sprints that just happened this past weekend.  They had them up there on Tuesday.  Kudos to the Southwest group, but it does show with dedicated people it can happen.  The SW region's new website is at:
http://www.ccssw.com.  

Holy Crud  :o That site rocks, man I wish the GP and MW Regions had that going on for them  :o ;D

[251am]

Holy Crud  :o That site rocks, man I wish the GP and MW Regions had that going on for them  :o ;D

  That site DOES rock!!  Hey AZ Mille, how did those changes come about?

a. Is the site updated and managed by racers/c.workers/volunteers of the SW or is it still run by Ft. Worth directions?

b. How was the agreement come to that this adjustment was necessary for the SW? Was a poll taken at a racer's meeting, etc.,?

c. Any recommendations on how we can get this done for the MW/GP region?

TIA

 Jeff, I hear what your saying pertaining to the b1itching. It gets old and it's an energy drain for some. For others it is a valid gripe that needs  venting. Do you have a specific recommendation for dealing with this points updating? Need some help?

         I went to look at the "update" and couldn't even find results from August's BFR? Did someone lose all the results for that whole weekend?    

[Jeff]

Todd,

I don't think the current situation needs any help.  They know the problem exists and will fix it.  Hopefully today, but I do not know what is on Ryan's schedule, so I can't say.

I am very interested in the new branch-off for the southwest and what it might mean for the midwest, etc.

So...  While people say that "nothing ever changes, don't waste your time" etc...  I submit the news of ccs southwest...

4 years ago points weren't online.
3 years ago points were updated once maybe twice in the year online.
2 years ago everyone relied on Jack's points system so CCS didn't need to be current/accurate
Last year points came more consistently but still not frequently enough.
This year I've seen points up as quick as the monday after a race weekend.  Points have almost always been updated before the next race weekend.  Totally unheard of before.

It IS getting better.  

Is it perfect?  No.  But considering where we've come from, we're heading in the right direction.

A branch-out may be a step in the right direction too.  Smaller groups can get things done faster in certain settings because they deal with less "mass" bureaucracy and decisions can be made much easier in a small group.  Common sense prevails over process.

However, I don't know what the CCSSW 'branch' looks like as far as organization, responsibilities, etc.  Last year, there was talk of Fasttrax taking over CCS Midwest.  That would have been a change which most people would not have liked.

It would have allowed a smaller regional control situation, but the structure and event organization/classes/rules/etc were dramatically different.  Fasttrax is very casual while CCS is not.  It works for Fasttrax because they're a smaller org.  However, I had my doubts that it would work in an org as large as CCSMW...

[Super Dave]

Holy Crud  :o That site rocks, man I wish the GP and MW Regions had that going on for them  :o ;D

Never will happen.

The MW region, which really the GP and previous GL regions were just underneath it, really, are too good of money makers for them to be let go of by CCS.  We've got Road America.  With Daytona becoming so expensive, that might be the last volume entry track that CCS has to make some fair money.

As a result, CCS events in the Midwest region, etc., although we pull pretty big numbers for entries, have no press coverage.  A very generous photographer tried to do it but ran into so many problems that it wasn't really worth doing.  We go unnoticed.  As a result, when you go talk to your sponsors, where's the press...unless you're making your own, you might as well go race someplace else.  

Changes have been virtually none.  I've had a CCS license since 1988.  There are cycles in the numbers of entries, yes.  The internet has existed for quite sometime.  Many things should be simple, and they would be if they were simply executed.  I've tried to offer input, but often information, valuable or not, makes no difference.  

Complaining?  Will it help?  If no one recognizes a problem, there is nothing to fix.  Most people, when unhappy with a product, just leave and tell others how awful things are, even if they aren't that bad.  

[r1owner]

Jeff,

I agree... My point is that the data is there.  I'm sure it can be easily retrieved and posted.

It's been offered several times in the past by multiple people to write something to help them out only to be turned down.

Just get someone to write the damn software.  It can be done for probably less than a couple thosand dollars.

The time saved by them making these points into a pdf alone would probably have it paying for itself in a year.  Why not do it to save money in the long run AND make your customers happy?

I personally like the way the race weekends are run and think the people at the track do a good job.  But I can tell you that not getting something as simple as results posted really pisses me off.  

If there were another organization that ran this many races in the midwest, I would certainly give them a try based on that alone.  I think that's part of the reason we get little to no response as CCS is the only org running most of these tracks.

I stand by the fact that there is no reason we shouldn't have a site for all of CCS as they have in the Southwest.  Notice how it's dynamic instead of static as the main CCS site is?

[Super Dave]

So...  While people say that "nothing ever changes, don't waste your time" etc...  I submit the news of ccs southwest...

4 years ago points weren't online.
3 years ago points were updated once maybe twice in the year online.
2 years ago everyone relied on Jack's points system so CCS didn't need to be current/accurate
Last year points came more consistently but still not frequently enough.
This year I've seen points up as quick as the monday after a race weekend.  Points have almost always been updated before the next race weekend.  Totally unheard of before.

In a vacuum, that would be fine.  However, there are other organizations that have done it differently and with more activity.  

WSMC has regular releases about there races in RRW.  CRA does at times too.  

We can talk all about manpower and all, but if we have to talk about revenue, then CCS has it covered better.  CCE, and as a result CCS, is a public company.  Therefore, efficiency is the thing that keeps business alive.  If one puts on so many races in all these places, then at some point in the five years that CCE has owned CCS, something reasonable should have been figured out.  CCS has existed for 21 years.  What has really changed?

[Super Dave]

And as a final thought.

It's not that we won't race with out CCS.  You can race, but it will be with another organization.  Racers don't race because of an organization.  Organizations a developed because racers exist.

Todd, I'll be at Blackhawk.

[Jeff]

R1, I completely agree with you...  Hell, any one of more than a dozen people involved in CCS Midwest would be glad to develop, implement and run the points system for FREE.

The problem involved is that it's not just that simple.  CCS answers to CCE.  There's no way that CCE is going to let some outsider gain access to any corporate owned or affiliated server to do this.

So it goes back to the drawing board, over priced RFP's, budgets that get cut...

At least that's how I envision it...  I could be wrong...

[TommyG]

I also am a long time ccs license holder(but younger and better looking than Dave  ;D) and I think things are WAY better then it used to be! You should have tried to chase points and plates in 1994!

[AZ-MilleR]

Apparently CCS decided the Southwest region was not profitable enough so they were going to drop the region completely for 2006.  I'm sure we are a small region and don't generate large grids.

The local race director started a new organization that would be a CCS affiliate, but not under the CCE umbrella.  The website was created by a racer in the region along with help from the local staff.  

[Super Dave]

I also am a long time ccs license holder(but younger and better looking than Dave  ;D) and I think things are WAY better then it used to be! You should have tried to chase points and plates in 1994!

Well, there were fewer classes.  

Came a long way?  I don't know.  Same only different.  Current technology isn't used either way.  I used to be able to call and get a reasonable answer.  Usually tried to make sure that I was far enough up front to coast in points anyway.

Am I actually older than you?  I know I'm wiser...   ;D

[tug296]

In 1984, AMACCS days, when Roger Edmonson ran things, we did not have the points update problems, show up at the next race and they were posted on the board. They would also send a copy of the points via the U.S. Mail.
 Of coarse not many people were on the internet then, now folks expect the updates in a timely manner, because there IS a points page.
All it takes is money, pay some geek to fix the thing and move along.
Problem is CCE apparently doesn't want to pay to fix the problem.

I've had a sponsor helping me since 2002, he wanted to see the points page for himself and was disappointed when the span of time was 3-4 months before they got it wrong, then corrected in a week or two. He still helped me but not as enthusiastically as he could / would have.
I'm sure I'm not the only one effected by the apparent lack of intrest within the organization to fix the problem as far as sponsors are concerned, every little bit helps.
Someone needs a talking to in the upper, upper ranks.

[digitalRoost]

CCS SW website was built by a racer with guidance and direction from the new CCS SW staff.

CCS uses an OLD dos program for scoring, points, etc. It's VERY OLD and hard to do anything with. I know they had someone somewhere developing a newer version, but it was volunteer work and not getting done very fast (obviously). I think they like it but it's buggy, so they cannot switch yet.

For CCS SW, the developer had to take the binary files that the dos program stores results in and translate them, parse them, and then load them into a database. From the database, points can be calculated. Times are also retrieved and stored in a similar way, although the only output the timing system has (a different dos program) is word perfect files...also not fun to parse.

Developing the CCS SW solution was a time consuming process and is not optimal as it's based off output from a buggy dos program.

In summary, CCS needs to throw some money at getting a new system and/or get someone else to work on it. They obviously need it, but aren't prioritizing it high. It's pretty obvious there's the talent all over the place in CCS ranks who are willing to do the work for little or no cost. The CCS SW region wanted change, so they made it happen.

[Roger@ASMA]

Spoken like the racer that developed the website and sorted through all the crap  ;)

[ecumike]

I developed the USGPRU site, the results, rider profiles, points and standings, as well, the personal stats on the profiles pages, rider stats, etc, etc.. are all integrated.
It wasn't very hard at all.

Granted the results are manually entered, but it's just a matter of selecting a rider's name from a list for each position. Very simple. Points are auto-calc'd from the finishing position, standings, etc, etc.. all automatic.

As digitalRoost said, and anyone who does database/Web work, the hard(est) part is getting the raw data parsed (into) the format or database in a way you can use it.

BTW I did the USGPRU site for free.

[digitalRoost]

that's an awesome site and one I based a lot of stuff off. I used the best ideas from there, MRA and a few other good sites.

We thought about rider profiles (and are still thinking about them), but USGPRU is a little unique in the target audience and how many racers there are. With CCS, there are TONS of racers to consider and manage. Would be lame if we did it an no-one gave valid data.

As you said, data is always the biggest problem.

[Super Dave]

About three or four years ago, I was told that the top ten experts from the previous years points would could have rider profiles on the CCS page.  

Didn't happen.

Occasionally, rider profiles have been entered for FUSA Team Owner program riders.

Riders that follow a series generally have probably a $10,000 plus investment in a season each year.  Anyone feel that I'm out of line?

Given that amount of investment, I'd think there should be some reasonable amount of support of the actual racing program from the organization.  Some press, some reasonable amount of support as spelled out in the rule book, some amount of accountability for items such as points and even a little bit of PR in the form of letting someone come to the race track and write something.

But with a Sunday entry for a spectator pass costing $25 now...

I might as well just have my neighbors take me out to Applebee's rather than come see me race locally.  If the club scene is a stepping stone to FUSA and then AMA spectating, it's gonne a be crushed.  

If you have sponsors, who's gonna know anything about you?

Might be better off attending a track day in getting some team and individual recognition.

[Jeff]

Sat (spectator) entries are $25.  Sun only are still $15...

[SliderPhoto]

As you said, data is always the biggest problem.

Yes, garbage in = garbage out. It really needs to be done by the organization OR they need to make a commitment or accept a commitment to supply data and a strategy for making changes.

The system I wrote parsed the actual HTML results. There was a reconciliation after parsing because riders names were entered differently and numbers weren't always the same. I never had access to original data and had to wait for results to be posted to the site--so really not much better.

Another problem is when CCS has to make a change or fix an error. That's why it has to be an official process or at least something CCS has to committ to in order for the data to be reliable. Since making a correction in one set of data makes the other set unreliable.

[SliderPhoto]

If you guys want press coverage, find someone in your ranks, or a couple people where someone would go to each event. Write something up and submit it to Road Racing world and Cycles News and whoever else will listen. They'll gladly accept it and publish it. Talk to whomever is there taking photos and see if they will give you one good photo from the weekend.

[SliderPhoto]

If you guys want rider profiles, build a site. Find a couple of people interested in it, get them together and plan it. Make it a complete community. charge riders $5 or whatever a year for their own section. Allow them to edit it freely with maybe a photo album. Give them a place to put a couple logos and their current stats. Let them edit the stats themselves. It would be a place where their sponsors could visit to check up on their team. If that's what you guys need, build it.

I know I would volunteer some time toward a group of people who might want to do it.

[ecumike]

...There was a reconciliation after parsing because riders names were entered differently and numbers weren't always the same. I never had access to original data and had to wait for results to be posted to the site--so really not much better.

Another problem is when CCS has to make a change or fix an error. That's why it has to be an official process or at least something CCS has to committ to in order for the data to be reliable. Since making a correction in one set of data makes the other set unreliable.

Yea, for the USGPRU it was feasable to do this. B/C as you can see from the "Useless stats and figures page" (http://usgpru.net/riderstats.php) we've only had up to 290 different riders. That's nationally. Just a CCS region alone can have 1.5-2x that many.

Reconciliation of data... that's where my 'rider profile' idea came in. The rider profile is the 'backbone' of it all. Each finishing position is a simple name select from a drop-box, which is a query of all riders in the database. This 'ensures' accuracy of names, numbers, etc, etc.  If a rider changes numbers from 1 year to another, simply update the profile and bam - everywhere he's listed on the site, his new number is listed. As well, you don't have to worry about mis-spelling first, last names from race to race, etc...

And the other point - All of this is done through an online content management tool I created, so that each East/West coast admin can log in, anytime, from anywhere and update/post any info to the site.. news, results, qual times, profiles, rider spotlight, schedule, track profiles, etc, etc..

[ecumike]

If you guys want rider profiles, build a site. Find a couple of people interested in it, get them together and plan it. Make it a complete community. charge riders $5 or whatever a year for their own section. Allow them to edit it freely with maybe a photo album. Give them a place to put a couple logos and their current stats. Let them edit the stats themselves. It would be a place where their sponsors could visit to check up on their team. If that's what you guys need, build it.

I know I would volunteer some time toward a group of people who might want to do it.

This is VERY easy to do... it's what sponsorhouse.com did. VERY VERY VERY easy.. create a profile, create an ID/PW and store it in a DB. When you login you can only access your profile. Just basic profile/database stuff. As well, regulating photo filesize and px size is easy with PHP.

[Super Dave]

If you guys want press coverage, find someone in your ranks, or a couple people where someone would go to each event. Write something up and submit it to Road Racing world and Cycles News and whoever else will listen. They'll gladly accept it and publish it. Talk to whomever is there taking photos and see if they will give you one good photo from the weekend.

I agree.

Trick can be that some have a really hard time getting any help at the race track, let alone trying to help provide "press" coverage for an event.

In other areas that I have raced at, the organization provided someone because it was in their best interest to get press for their program of races for a new racer or spectator point of view.  This is very easy to realize and not expensive.  

Hey, you go to big events and you recognize other guys from different places because someone wrote about them.  "Rosno Plays Ironman at Topeka" was good for me when I was pounding out my championships years ago.  That was valuable in that I could take that press coverage to a sponsor and say look...

Meanwhile, you go to some other races and it's just a sucking vacuum.  

I have a problem with which comes first.

Do I work on developing myself as a rider, my machine, and my program...

Or trying to find a person that will write about an event?

If you can pay a similar amount of money doing something someplace else and get similar value or promotion, well...  It's making it hard to justify.

[Super Dave]

Let's look at USGPRU.

Dedicated individuals with a very narrow niche market.  Honestly, GP bike have ran their course in the US professional ranks, more or less.  

But I've seen the USGPRU program thrive.  

There is a real finite number of machines available for the program when you compare that to all the 600's and stuff out there.

They have done their work.  When compared to what happens at the same location...

[Jeff]

I'm no K3, and I didn't stay at a holiday inn express last night, but I do enjoy writing and I'm told I'm okay at it.

I would gladly write race reports for a weekend and submit them to RRW.  However, I need some info.  It's easy to write my own, but I don't pay any attention to anyone elses races, so y'all would have to come to me with your stories/bits...