Come on...give us some tracks to race

[Super Dave]

"True.  Would more money or different people actually change the result though?  Again, generally not."

Well spent money and well placed effort always net good results.  

How much?  

The motorcycle road racing market place is rather wide and disjointed.

I have an idea of how much CCS makes CCE.  It isn't much.  

The best that CCS did was in 2000.  Might be before your time.  In that year, a deal was inked that brought an outside sponsor into the FUSA series, which was now under CCS...it was a stand along program before that, it was with WERA before that, and it was a Willow Springs progam before that....

Entries were high, and the excitement was there.  The outside sponsorship money made things possible.  However, not all the money got paid to CCS, as I understand it.

The next year, the sponsorship was renewed, but at a lower cost to the sponsor.  Wasn't the same.  

Manufacturers made promises to support the series with sponsorship dollars...CCS made plans, and then the manufacturer money never came through as promised.  

CCS supported the series with its own money.  We're talking ten's of thousands of dollars.  In 2004 the purse money for FUSA deteriorated quite a bit.  Fewer riders following the series?  No money for spectator stuff because it was already spent trying to get the series going. 
  

"Racing is the option of individuals that decide that the risk that they involve themselves in (money, health...family, friends)...is the endeavour that they'd like to try to be successful in.

It's a drug that doesn't immediately become addictive to everyone."

Again I am going to state that there will be "some" that are willing to take to it. I have never seen any business get 100% on their promotional dollars back the instant they do it. What CCS(SW) is trying to do is grow its business without spending any money or effort to grow it. The current forumla is failing.

Some, few, a couple, and many are really different terms.  Again, how  many dollars would you like to spend on each attempt?  Is there a broad market place where the money could be spent?

Current formula is failing?

Where?  On the whole national economic front?  Fuel and gas prices are quite a bit higher than they were several years ago.  It was either in 2000 or 2001 that gas was under $1.00 a gallon when I was coming back from Daytona.

In May of 2001, one can draw a line in the market place where something happened and entries seemed to drop.  I know my school program saw a drop off.  In that month, the Fed announced that there were issues in the economy.  I see similar things happening now.  How about short term interest rates increasing?  Credit card rates going up?

I guess I don't always see that someone else (a racing organization) should spend money when the product (racers programs) aren't necessarily up to fair market spectator conditions?  Any agreement on that?

"If all the track day programs were the answer, racing entries would have sky rocketed.  I don't see it.  But I know that track day programs have grown to out of control proportions."

Ding, ding, ding, diinnnnnng! Your answer! Trackday orgs are promoting themselves without print in papers, without ads on clear channel and they sure as heck are not promoting CCS at their trackdays.

Actually, my point is different than what your answer is...

There's a track day organization on every corner.  Blackhawk Farms has three or so for motorcycles.  It's an over saturated market...that's the OC proportion.  

"I'm sure it spreads out the cost of the weekend.  Can't answer specifically on it."

Its either a nice sidestep or ya just dont know. I'll just let that one lay there and we'll see next year what has come to light.

Actually, I don't know.  But what does it matter?  There should be some profit.  

[Super Dave]

30 rider grids? That will be hard to come by in club racing unless you go to a wera or fusa national.

We get that at times at Blackhawk.  AFM...I know there are waiting lists.  LRRS...big grids.  Really depends upon where you are and in what cycle you are in.

In case any of the old timers have been asleep the last several years or so, club racing in this country has taken a serious dump. In the early 90's, grids used to be 30-40 deep in just about every regional race. Now ccs MIGHT get 40 riders at the race of champions.

And from an "old timer"...

Before some of the boom of the early 90's, it was hard to get a ten rider expert grid for middleweight Supersport on a Suzuki Cup weekend...that was when I was riding a Suzuki Katana 600 against FZR600's and Scott Russell would show up on his Yoshimura Katana to make some extra money.

I'll give you all some reasons why:
Track days started about 1996 or so in the US.

Yeah, sounds good.  I saw that people were coming to my CCS road race school in 1993/1994 to get an opportunity to be on track without racing.

In years past, endurance racing was always sold as "track time".  Track days have become the non-competitive form of "track time".  Either way, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a change is still insanity.

Cost; $1500 for fork internals!!! WTF! Pipes; $750. Bodywork $600. Shock $1200. DOT nearly $400.
Gas prices: $100-$200 for a nearby regional race

Yeah, gone are the days of $180 tires (front and rear), $3600 bikes, $500 shocks, and entry fees...

My first year:  $30 for the first, $20 for the second, $10 for each one after...

And Suzuki was offering $1500 for a win in each Suzuki Cup race.

One of the things that I noticed over the years was the escalation of perhipheral costs.  Amateurs with enclosed tandem axle trailers.  What gives?  There was a time when your common journeyman road racer was happy with a super length van.
[/quote]

Money and how it's spent.

In the mid 90's I had the opportunity to ride some neat vintage motorcycles for their owners.  Some events pitted us back to back or the weekend before an AMA Pro event.  

AMA Pro Racing is a sanctioning body that sells is sanction to promotors and race tracks.  The ultimate aim is to make money.  There were times when we, the AHRMA races, out pulled the AMA Pro event...more spectators were there to see us rather than the Pro event.  Mid-Ohio and Daytona were of particular interest.

Goes to show that the money that's spent on road racing does not always get the results that one expects.

[Mongrel]

It's funny that you get people with all the answers, but yet have never stepped into the pool and tried the waters.  I have first hand experience at starting a new race series, and watched the hemorrhaging of money. It wasn't my money, but I sure spent a lot of my time and effort with this series.  It is an expensive sport no doubt, both for the racer and the series owner.  Anyone that sticks around for more then a few years has disposable income, and in a way is out of touch with folks that are struggling just to make ends meet.

[banzaib132]

Actually, you can get a lot more than that at an AFM round, and most WSMC rounds for some of the MW stuff.

-Brian

Yes but Isn't California like it's own country? Population and sportbike wise? MW is always been popular. I remember going to watch club races like those here in Fl in the late 80's/early '90's and seeing 50-60 rider grids at club races!
The HW or unlimited classes naturally had a little less and the light weights were about 15-25 riders. Nowdays, in my region, we are lucky to get 10 bikes in a HW race. MW usually get at least 10, but not always. :(

[banzaib132]

   Anyone that sticks around for more then a few years has disposable income, and in a way is out of touch with folks that are struggling just to make ends meet.

I have been on both sides of this. It just seems right now, I'm on the latter.

[banzaib132]

I remember see pictures recently of Kenny Roberts RR bike in the paddock at Laguna seca in the 70's and there were no tire warmers, no canopies, no generators. Just a carpet and a bike stand holdig the bike. The same series of picture showed Erv Kanemoto working in the dirt on someones bike out of the back of a step van. The newbies are being told these days that they need tire warmers, canpies, generators. etc to look "professional" but in the end, where's the sponsor money at? If there was any, There would be alot more people racing....I would be on the track evey other weekend if that were the case.

[Super Dave]

I remember see pictures recently of Kenny Roberts RR bike in the paddock at Laguna seca in the 70's and there were no tire warmers, no canopies, no generators. Just a carpet and a bike stand holdig the bike. The same series of picture showed Erv Kanemoto working in the dirt on someones bike out of the back of a step van. The newbies are being told these days that they need tire warmers, canpies, generators. etc to look "professional" but in the end, where's the sponsor money at? If there was any, There would be alot more people racing....I would be on the track evey other weekend if that were the case.

Ok, that's kind of backward thinking.

First, there just weren't tire warmers for a long time.  Those in the know were hiding their tires and wheels inside of hot vans before races.  There are things you can do to put heat into tires.

Where's the sponsor money?  That sounds rather entitling....as though if you just have a racing license, someone should give you money.  It's pretty simple;  one needs to develop a program that is interesting to sponsorship opportunities.  Again, who's got shirts?  How about a team name on a set of leathers?  Websites, press releases?  Doing anything outside of the track.

And, even then, it will probably cost something out of your pocket.  In NASCAR, there's a lot of money being thrown around, but with huge staffs, PR people for each driver, etc., etc...

Tire warmers and generators are still reasonably inexpensive.  Those things are tangable items that don't just go away like tires.  

The impression of expense has went up just as the cost of a Ford Taurus went up over all those years.  Hopefully, your income did too.  Or maybe you figured out how to tune the chassis better or actually develop A PROGRAM that was attractive to reduce your financial input.

I remember when I saw my first set of tire warmers at the PIR AMA National in 1993.  I didn't buy any until 1999.  

A generator won't make anyone "look" professional.  It's just a tool to be utilized, like a screw driver.  Many people will NEVER get to the track to see your program.  That's where a press release can make a big difference.

I have been able to "stick around" a long time because I diversified and learned that promotion of a program was more important that most anything.  Most championships only satisfy a level of personal satisfaction.  Being available at "important" events can be more "sponsor worthy".  

Back to the Blackhawk example, a friend of mine used to win the Suzuki Cup races at Blackhawk where no one wrote about anything, and another guy won them at Grattan.  The guy who won at Grattan got written about and eventually was able to quit his job so he could race until injuries ended his racing career many, many years later.

[rotoboge]

It's funny that you get people with all the answers, but yet have never stepped into the pool and tried the waters.  I have first hand experience at starting a new race series, and watched the hemorrhaging of money. It wasn't my money, but I sure spent a lot of my time and effort with this series.  It is an expensive sport no doubt, both for the racer and the series owner.  Anyone that sticks around for more then a few years has disposable income, and in a way is out of touch with folks that are struggling just to make ends meet.

Well said, so enough already... Let's enjoy what we got until something better evolves! ;)

[Zac]

Cost; $1500 for fork internals!!! WTF! Pipes; $750. Bodywork $600. Shock $1200. DOT nearly $400.

So then why are the cheapest classes the least popular?  Is it too much of an image thing - "I gotta race a 1000 so I can be cool"?  I have a buddy who races Ultra-Light Superbike on an RZ350. Basically it has had the lights removed and some number plates strapped on.  He buys two sets of Avons a season.  Shows up at the track with a cardboard box of a few tools and some premix oil.  He has a blast doing it.  He probably spends less than I do on my mountain bikes.

How fun would it be to have 20 of those RZ350s out on the track together?  AFM has big Production 250 grids, with guys rubing elbows on Ninja 250s and VFR250s.  

The cost (which is often what drives people away) comes from what people think they "need" to go racing.  They "need" the latest gen 600, they "need" that power commander, they "need" a $1500 shock, they "need" a high dollar supersport valve job, etc.  Sure, there are a few guys that need this stuff to win the big races, but that's probably 10% of the club racers out there.  If I had a MotoGP bike I still wouldn't beat Kan Laskey, but Mat Mladin could do it on a dead stock bike with street tires.

As everyone has said before, cost is a major reason why people quit the sport, which in turn is why roadracing is not growing at any substantial rate.  So how do we convince racers that they don't need to spend as much as they are?  How do we break the "image"?  

Sure some will make the arguement that they want to go run the AMA and need to get ready.  But then again it's ironic that, at least in the SW, the lightweight expert grids are 3-4 times the size of the lightweight amateur grids, yet the amateur grids are bigger than expert in the MW, HW, and Unl. classes.

-z.

[Super Dave]

How about this...

A production based class with extreme restrictions that would maintain the bike in a very basic form.



It's been done.  AHRMA had the MZ Skorpion Cup Series starting in 1997 for a few years.  Laverda also with AHRMA.  Now the Triumph Thruxton series.  Bikes are reasonable, don't destroy tires.  But, having raced in the Skorpion class in 1998, cheating is more expensive in completely production classes.  Yeah...there always seems to be ways to cheat, it's just a matter of money.  Really, with a bike of 42HP, if you make 10% more power, it's still not much more powerful.  But there were a couple of bikes that were just ridiculous...someone has to have the knowledge of something to look for.

Oh, and the pay was good too.  

Cheap racing...  125 GP bikes...period.  Again, there should be tons of them around.  

[brian213]

Cheap racing...  125 GP bikes...period.  Again, there should be tons of them around.  

Totally!  But, we shag tires like they are going out of style!  ha ha ha just kidding.

I'm not super fast, but I've run about 3 months/w-3 races per month with one set of tires.

You can't get 125 tires past the wear marks.  You will heat-cycle them long before that.  (this doesn't include endurance racing)

-Brian

[Stone]

"So then why are the cheapest classes the least popular?  Is it too much of an image thing - "I gotta race a 1000 so I can be cool"?"

Thats a chip that you carry on your shoulder like Barney Five carries his only bullet in his front pocket. Your constantly trying explain why you ride the bikes that you do...but in the same sentence belittling anyone that rides a 1k.

The 2 strokes are cool but not everyones cup of tea. I personally wouldnt want to race them due to all the maintence. The last race in Vegas I saw everyone's 125/250 up on stands while their owners worked on them constantly. If I wanted to do that I would go back to drag racing Harleys.