Put your head down (on your desk?)

[PaulV]

Ok,
so did anyone/everyone find our 2 hours of quiet time at Gingerman excessive? ???
It is possible that I do not know or understand the reasoning but, is this not a race track/facility?
If we have to have 2 hours of quiet time on Sundays then why do we stuff all races into Sunday?
Gingerman is a nice track/facility but seems to be just one of many A. Wilson designed coarses on the MW/GP schedule.

Paul
MW#292

[Team-G]

I used the time to try and get into Debuhr's head...it didn't work.  My boy spent 2 hours trying to convince me to buy him a pocket rocket.  That didn't work either.

[PaulV]

Yeah,

didn't work for me either, about all it did do was put me into Chicago traffic at 3pm on a Sunday.
Couple that with a toll booth operator O.D.ing on something much stronger than cough meds and it was a less than pleasurable trip home.

How about we get another RoadAmerica date on the schedule instead of any track that demands 2 hours of quiet time on race day?

[Team-G]

and what about the spectators...so Jenny had to cook breakfast AND lunch, clean the trailer, clean the grill, change my tires, check pressures, sweep the paddock, scrub the bug splat off my wind screen and give me a foot massage.  Otherwise she would have just sat around all day and been bored...

[PaulV]

"so Jenny had to cook breakfast AND lunch, clean the trailer, clean the grill, change my tires, check pressures, sweep the paddock, scrub the bug splat off my wind screen and give me a foot massage.  Otherwise she would have just sat around all day and been bored..."
ummmmmmm soooooo,
maybe 3 hours of quiet time would be better?

[Team-G]

At least 2 1/2; as I remember it was from 9:30 to 12:00.  ;)

[Super Dave]

Don't get me started about Alan Wilson...

Hope you guys had a decent time though.

Two hours of silence.  I think it's a local ordinance for churches.  I think Road Atlanta has a similar set up.

[dylanfan53]

Two hours of silence.  I think it's a local ordinance for churches.

It's the price they had to pay to pacify the pious locals, some of whom aren't really pious.  They're really former Chicagoans who went to MI for the bucolic scenery, fruits and veggies only to find a race track going up in their neighborhood.

And don't whine to me about the drive home.  Although I was opening a beer at home a little over an hour after leaving the track, I go through three rush hours to get to BHF for Friday morning practice and similar torture to get back on Sunday night.

Apparently there are also pious Chicagoans who go to Wisconsin for the farms, fruits and veggies (oh, and cheese.)  

 :)

[r1owner]

Yes, the quiet time was a different experience for me for sure...

I don't think it is a good idea to schedule all those races in one day, ESPECIALLY when you have to observe that quiet time.

Gingerman is a tough track though!  I really don't like all the different "lanes".  Especially the one in turn 2 that put me into the grass during the F40 race!  :P

[PaulV]

Ok,

so thats the why quiet time, and OK Don, being a more local track for you is nice too I'm sure.
But the quiet time coupled with the every race on Sunday schedule is total bullshit.  
With new venues coming up like I39, ACC etc... it will be nice to have more choices for club racing in the MW/GP hopefully with less quiet time/schedule restrictions on race days.
And with a little luck maybe venues like Road America may start to feel the competition and become more receptive to a mid or later season club level event.


Paul
MW #292

[PaulV]

"Gingerman is a tough track though!  I really don't like all the different "lanes".  Especially the one in turn 2 that put me into the grass during the F40 race!"
Hey R1owner, that was you?
I was right behind you when you went off, trying to watch your line.   And then it was like "Hey where are you going?"
You were cooking right along up to then.
Hope the rest of your day went better.

Paul
MW #292

[extrakt0r]

You all do realize that we only lost one hour of track time?

We still would have lost 1 hour for lunch, so really we did not lose 2 due to city ordiances....

IF CCS would have made it a 3 hour brake that would have been silly.

I had the last race of the day and live 12 hours away, it wasn't that bad....

I would imagine it is more of a rule they put in place for the cars vs. bikes that race there. We are not as loud as a V-8 running around that track...  :-/

[r1owner]

"Gingerman is a tough track though!  I really don't like all the different "lanes".  Especially the one in turn 2 that put me into the grass during the F40 race!"
Hey R1owner, that was you?
I was right behind you when you went off, trying to watch your line.   And then it was like "Hey where are you going?"
You were cooking right along up to then.
Hope the rest of your day went better.

Paul
MW #292

Hehe, I thought when I looked back I saw a big ole 292 chasing me! :)  Looks like you were getting ready to make my race a little more challenging shortly though!  Look forward to racing with you some more this year.

Yeah, I drifted out a little too far while leaned a little two far and hit one.  Pitched me up pretty good!

Actually, my day got worse.  My brother in our next race made a mistake and hit Chuck Moses (sorry Chuck) my brother has a very bad break at his knee that requires surgery.  

I didn't get to race the rest of the day :'( as I was busy putting everything away.  Took forever!


The one day format totally sucks.... did I say that out loud?

[Team-G]

I'd settle for 3 hours of quiet time after the Wegman auction...I know we ain't gonna get much of that  ;D

PVD--you have a month to stock up the Vitamin-O

[dylanfan53]

But the quiet time coupled with the every race on Sunday schedule is total bullshit.  
With new venues coming up like I39, ACC etc... it will be nice to have more choices for club racing in the MW/GP hopefully with less quiet time/schedule restrictions on race days.

Yeah, my comments about not whining about the drive home were tongue in cheek.  I know exactly what people had to go through to get home on a Sunday evening and it's not easy, especially when you're wiped out from racing.

Also, I completely agree that the one day event thing is for the birds.  If that decision was based on lower expected turnouts, then yesterday's crowd proved otherwise.  Of course, the turnout will be lower in October when the second one is held...

Sorry to see a few "fallers", but I thought the day went pretty smoothly (once they got going) and we got a lot of racing in.

[PaulV]

Team-G: The Trucks are loaded and on their way, buckle up were going in!
r1owner: Hope you can make BHF Wegman event, if so, look us up Fri. eve by T5 black v-nose trailer w/Polar-Optics racing all over it
dylanfan: Thanks, it was amazing to see how many folks came in Sat pm and Sunday AM for the event.
I think that going to a Std. Sat/Sun schedule with a Friday practice day thrown in would be just perfect!
S.Haven gets an extra day of shopping from the SO's, racers/track day gurus get a full day and racers get an acceptable schedule even with 2 hours of quiet time (head down on their desks optional).

[Nik]

Is it a threadjack if I turn this into the biotch about the Gingerman weekend thread???

I thought it was a good weekend, and for the most part, run very well.  I enjoyed the guy on the mic.  The constant reminders of the menu was a little much, "Attention, I'd like to take this quiet time to tell you about the menu and pollute the quite time with my booming voice..."  (kidding) but a necesarry evil, props to Gingerman for making a viable buisness out of the resturant and supplying us with good food.  I think the staff did a good job of trying to pack all the races into the time allotted...but therein lies the problem.  How the hell didn't CCS know about the 2 hour delay until that morning?  Was it the first time they've been to Gingerman?  Didn't even one person ask anyone at Gingerman about the time allotted to run?  How did that slip through?  Also, I hated the Sunday only races format.  But, I am in favor of any efforts to bring newbies into the sport, and it promotes the expansion and logevity of the sport, so I think we should be understanding and tolerate it.  But that brings me to my next bitch.  What's up with the $25 gate fee for spectators?  Spectators are almost no strain on the facility.  They only use the bathrooms and a parking spot, and spend money on cold drinks and snacks at the store on a hot day.  I think the high fee is a shortsighted and selfish business model.  The sport will never grow without bringing in dollars, and that won't happen without sponsors and support, and that will never happen if people won't watch.
Before I'm done whining.  2 riders meetings?  That just seemed sloppy.  It put out the message that it was okay to miss the first one.

Seriously though, I did think it was run well, but there's always room for improvement, so if I'm way off base, just don't read my post, but don't ban me from posting for 2 hours.   ;D

[PaulV]

Oops,
r1owner:sorry to hear about your bro, all our best for a speedy and full recovery.
Nik: not at all a thread jack, you are right on about the people, food, services and how well the issues were dealt with to run the event.  My point is to hopefully build or show support for CCS to aggressively pursue those things that help to make so many great race events through out the MW/GP regions.  Is there room for improvement? Always.
Do we have an expectation for how events are run? Yes.
Is this the way to help get it done? Can't hurt.

Thanks

Paul
MW #292

[Team-G]

Ok, here's my $0.02..

CCS corporate in TX probably forgot about the Sunday quite hours and just rented the track.  For next time, since the track can stay hot until the sun goes down, how about practice all day Saturday (racers only & learning curves) until 5, run the GT races and a couple of sprints from 5-8:30, sprints on Sunday, and a standard LP track day for the rest on Monday?

[Burt Munro]

One comment on the 2 hour down time.  

The Track has a different Manager than the last time we raced there (Oct 04).  

Last year we were able to limit the down time to about 1 1/2 hrs (10:30-12:00) by running races between 10-10:30 with classes other than what Bernie and the Kegel Boys are legal for  ;D

There were several other surprises.... In the past the crash truck was manned by a crew from a college in Kalamazoo (I think?) that is studying Automotive Design and Engineering.  Their professor was usually there as well because he's big into car racing and they have a University sponsored club that campaigns an SCCA sports car.

This year - no club from the school and oh, by the way, if you want the track to supply a crash truck it will be $50/hr! ???

Several other challenges related to new Track Management - but I won't get into those.

[Super Dave]

The other side of the coin is that Gingerman has attracted neither the number of riders nor entries to successfully operate a CCS race weekend financially.  

They have continued to keep in on the schedule hoping that it will build up a base.  

Has it came?

[Jeff]

The other side of the coin is that Gingerman has attracted neither the number of riders nor entries to successfully operate a CCS race weekend financially.  

They have continued to keep in on the schedule hoping that it will build up a base.  

Has it came?

PRE 2004 I would agree with you, but for the last 2 years, CCS has arranged manufacturer contingency for these weekends which has significantly increased turnout.

Personally if CCS continues to offer incentives to get people to this track (mfr contingencies, etc), they should step up to a 2 day event.

I will be writing Kevin Elliott to this effect, and would encourage everyone else to as well.

On the bright side, it was cool to be able to run late and not have races cut like in the past, or at other tracks...

[Super Dave]

Doesn't really answer the question...

How many riders?  How many entries?

[Jeff]

Doesn't really answer the question...

How many riders?  How many entries?

Okay Dave, I can play that too  8) ...  

Gingerman has attracted neither the number of riders nor entries to successfully operate a CCS race weekend financially.

What fact in 2004-2005 are you basing this statement on?

My statement is based on grid sizes.  The jump in 2003-2004 was more than double (I don't have the exact number, but I did track this and it was more than double)

2005 seemed larger than 2004, but I don't have the exact data to back up the statement.

I'm confident that CCS has the data, but whether they act on it or not will, in all likelihood, depend on whether they HEAR from the riders.  

You know this as well as I do Dave.  If they don't know a (perceived) problem exists with the riders, they will not look into fixing it.

If you're just simply asking the question, I apologize for seeming snippy (even though I don't intend my comments to be snippy).  I don't have the data and don't know that anyone here has it.

[r1owner]

I did a quick cut and paste into Excel for the 04 results for Gingerman for July.  It looks like 334 separate entries.

Just looked at the 05 results, looks like 430 separate entries.

[Jeff]

And in contrast, the 7/16-17 BHF weekend shows 454 entries per the results...

I'd say this warrants a 2 day event...

[Super Dave]

I would say too.

Seems ridiculous to jam it all up.  Bad enough as it is.

[Woofentino Pugrossi]

Last time I went to Gingerman was in 01. It was a 2 day event, albeit it also was combined with GLRRA.  >:(

Didnt race due to how screwed up the GLRRA guys ran it. Had to run by GLRRA rules. Would had been nice to know BEFORE I drove all the way out there since I would had just said f-it and not went.

[tzracer]

And with a little luck maybe venues like Road America may start to feel the competition and become more receptive to a mid or later season club level event.

I spoke with the general manager while we were up at RA in April. Except for 3 days (all 3 were in the next week), RA was rented EVERY day until November. Even if CCS wanted a date, there are none available.

Personally, I would prefer racing at Grattan to Gingerman. ISTR hearing that Grattan needs to be repaved.

Didn't really like ACC North, and after reading Jeff's report, I may not bother going to the FUSA race there. I am not very fond of Alan Wilson designed tracks.

[Super Dave]

I'm with you.  Alan Wilson tracks blow.

MAM is "ok", Barber didn't excite me, at best Gingerman is fair.

HPT is not Alan Wilson designed, and it's an outstanding layout.  VIR absolutely rocks.  I'd drive the 900 miles to go there vs 240 to Gingerman.  

Natural road courses are just more "natural"?  Sears Point is my absolute favorite, but I haven't ridden on the changes they made for the AMA yet.

[Jeff]

Personally, I would prefer racing at Grattan to Gingerman. ISTR hearing that Grattan needs to be repaved.

It just sucks to drive right past Gingerman and continue for 1 1/2 hours to get to Grattan.  If they repaved Grattan, it would be great.  But when I was up there last year, I was VERY disappointed (to the point that I wouldn't go back unless they repaved it) with the surface.

Didn't really like ACC North, and after reading Jeff's report, I may not bother going to the FUSA race there.

I really enjoyed the N. course.  The pit out leaves a bit to be desired (on both courses).  I think my biggest complaint is the rough surface on the South course and the guard rails which separate the two courses...

Oh yeah, the N. course is not going to be so smooth anymore.  A car burned TO THE GROUND in the middle of T6 (yes, on the track).

[Scott]

On race entries:

I do not think it is fair to compare BHF entries to Gingerman entries.

At BHF I do 7 races.  Two on Sat.  Five on Sun.

At Gingerman I did 4 because they were all jammed into one day and I didn't wany any back to back's.

I bet a lot of people reduced the number of races they did for the same reason, thus reducing the entries, maybe not the number of competitors.

I drove around the pits during the quite-a-thon and counted 155 different race bikes.

On a side notes, isn't pitting on the pavement at Gingerman, and not hearing about pit bikes 1000 times MUCH nicer than the BHF pits!

MORE RACES AT GINGERMAN!!!

[PaulV]

 :)Outstanding job on the letter Jeff!
Kevins response seems very acceptable and would be even better if we could make the change for Oct.
In my eyes, this needs to happen.  Scotts' reduced number of entries tells another story of why.
Thanks for everyones feedback and support on the issue.

Sincerely,

Paul
MW#292

[Nik]

It just sucks to drive right past Gingerman and continue for 1 1/2 hours to get to Grattan.  If they repaved Grattan, it would be great.  But when I was up there last year, I was VERY disappointed (to the point that I wouldn't go back unless they repaved it) with the surface.

).

I have a hard time understanding that.  I agree that
Grattan is a bumpy piece of shit in places, but it's no worse than gingerman.  Grattan has a few small bumps in the middle of 2, a little dip in 3 and 7, the sweeper has some ripples, and then again in 10b.  Pretty comparable to Gingerman really.  Grattan looks worse, because of all of the different stirps and patches, but it doesn't ride any worse when you consider some of gingerman's problems.  Gingerman has those ridges that are really pronounced in 2 and 7.  It has a couple of dips that bottom the bike in 8 and 11.  And 8 is not much different than grattan's sweeper.  And the braking zone for 11 is worse than any braking zone that grattan has.  I'd say their pretty much a wash, just depends on which one you know better.

[Jeff]

Nik, you're probably right.  I just get REAL nervous over the patches, strips and sealers.  There are multiple layers and compounds.  I didn't really know how they would react to a tire, so I had no confidence in the track.

Gingerman has its rough spots, but it is a VERY consistent track.  Perhaps Grattan is the same, but I don't have the time on it to know...

[dylanfan53]

Been on both every year and love them both.  Been there this year too.  Love Grattan's layout but I don't like racing there.  Saw a fatality there last year that may affect my opinion, but I think the surface is worse than BHF before repaved.  Where else do you get water bubbling up through a bus stop on a beautiful sunny day?

All due respect...IMHO and all that, I think Gingerman's way better.  Maybe it depends on suspension setups.

[Super Dave]

Where else do you get water bubbling up through a bus stop on a beautiful sunny day?

Topeka.

Other places too.  Depends upon what's under the track.

[Jeff]

hehe..  At gateway you don't get water bubbling up, you get OIL bubbling up...  :o

[Burt Munro]

hehe..  At gateway you don't get water bubbling up, you get OIL bubbling up...  :o

Wrong Jeff!  That was water - from the Mississippi River.  It just has the viscosity of oil! ;D ;D

[dylanfan53]

I knew that.  ;)

[Nik]

Nik, you're probably right.  I just get REAL nervous over the patches, strips and sealers.  There are multiple layers and compounds.  I didn't really know how they would react to a tire, so I had no confidence in the track.

Gingerman has its rough spots, but it is a VERY consistent track.  Perhaps Grattan is the same, but I don't have the time on it to know...

In my experience at Grattan, the consistancy of the surface depents on how dry the track is.  When it's warm and dry, you couldn't tell the difference between the patches if you tried.  They use some type of abraisive that they put over the patch sealer.  If you ever get a chance to do a track walk there, check it out.  Now, when Grattan is wet (or even damp), LOOK OUT!  It's a bear.  The sealer is slicker than cat snot and there are off-camber and ripply sections that'll send you farming.