Overall Point System

Started by gsxr_rcr, July 07, 2005, 02:16:40 PM

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gsxr_rcr

I have thought of a way that CCS can keep the points sytem fair for the overall standings.  To help stop people riding every race they can so they can BUY a championship CCS needs to limit the number of Events that count towards the overall points.  If unlimited class people can only race in 5 events maximum then only 5 events should count towards overall points.  For all the lightweight, middleweight, and heavyweight guys this could be their 5 best classes but if we limit them then it would be fair to name an actuall overall champion.  The current way just allows people with small bikes to run alot of classes an accumulate alot of points.

Just my suggestion.  I know CCS wants them to run every race because that means they make More $ but lets be fair and help people who cant afford it, or cant buy another bike.

extrakt0r

While I agree the points system favors a person with a 600 with lots of cash vs a person on a 1000 with lots of cash...

How important is the #1 plate anyway...I meen I would rather be Champ of my classes I race in than to be the #1 plate and not be the Champ of any Classes...

We all know the #1 plate can be "purchased" but it is much harder to "purchase" a Class Championship IMO...
Mike Simone
CCS/ASRA Great Plains EX #619
www.teamsimoneracing.com

2005 CCS AM Unlimited GP Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperBike Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperSport Champion

gsxr_rcr

I agree that it is much better to be champ of a class than overall but when you are presenting a proposal to a sponsor would it not sound better to say you are the overall champ???  

I just thought of a solution that would help keep the point system in check and figured maybe someone who works for CCS would read this and take it into consideration.

Super Dave

It's been brought up year after year after year to CCS.  

Write a letter.  Tell them you thoughts.

Super Dave

Jeff

While I would have some agreement, I still have to beg to differ that the plate can be bought.

Last year there were a LARGE number of people who entered a ton of races.  Consistency and top finishes put the #1 plate on Stumpy's bike.

Write it up and send it in...
Bucket List:
[X] Get banned from Wera forum
[  ] Walk the Great Wall of China
[X] Visit Mt. Everest

cbr806

I think the number one plate can be bought, but there's more than one guy usually trying to buy it, so you have to race a bit too.  I think the four class limit is a good idea.  I think even four, but I know neither will happen.

Super Dave

QuoteI think the number one plate can be bought, but there's more than one guy usually trying to buy it, so you have to race a bit too.  I think the four class limit is a good idea.  I think even four, but I know neither will happen.

How many people in each region were trying to get it?

Race a bit?

A bit?

This IS supposed to be racing.  
Super Dave

cbr806

QuoteHow many people in each region were trying to get it?

I'm guessing a number more than one and less than 10, but what differnce does that make, as long as it's more that one.

QuoteThis IS supposed to be racing.

Exactliy.  And if only four or five classes counted, you'd be racin' your a$$ off (quality, not quantity).  I'm not saying the guys who have earned the number one plate were not racin' hard, but the competition would have been considerable greater if only four or five classes couted and it may even have been won by a non-600 rider.

Super Dave

QuoteI'm guessing a number more than one and less than 10, but what differnce does that make, as long as it's more that one.

Do you really pay attention to it?  Two to nine is a broad answer.

I know who wanted it last year in the MW region.  Didn't think anyone else was really putting in an effort.  I know who I thought was doing it this year.  The others that were close were never gonna catch the "winner" unless they got hurt.




Super Dave

bmfgsxr

some people might run as much as 8 races a weekend. if they are even half way decent they will aquire more points than a guy who runs 3 classes and is in the top 5..   thats why overall points means jack s h i t to me.. class champs are all that really counts.

Super Dave

Some overall champions are the fastest, period.  We've had a couple of those in the MW.  Yeah, they were entering more classes, but they were winning or finishing better too.

Regardless, is it reasonable to believe that the riders that might contemplate going after a championship cannot because of the simple reason that it is almost ridiculous to think about trying to enter eight or nine races a weekend.  

If you're gonna go for the overall, it's easy.

Borrow a bike to compliment your current stable for the first weekend or two.  Enter as many races as you can put on credit.  Generally, the points that one can acquire will help others to decide that they don't need to try to go after the championship.  

i mean, really, at that point, it can come down just to money.  There isn't a huge purse, or sponsorship purse, that comes with the championship.  

Again, not that all number one plate guys buy them, but they are a managed purchase.  There have been riders that have won overall championships but no class championships...

Anyway, if you don't like the system, write up some ideas NOW, get them to others, and send it in to CCS.
Super Dave

StumpysWife

Remember kids.  Just because it's on the internet doesn't make it fact.

Heather

bmfgsxr

even to be an overall champ you would have to be reasonably quick (expert class we are talking about). but it can still be bought.  that is why in my opinion a class champion has much more credibility than an overall champ.

ahastings

With the current points system you can even win class championships, just by going to every round and not even finishing in the top 3. Look at the Midatlantic region. 13 rounds from Summit Point, West Virginia to Daytona , FL. a span of around 900 miles. Not many people can afford all that. For class championships I think your 2 worst rounds should be dropped.
Arnie
A&M Motorsports
Mid-Atlantic VP Fuel Vendor

WebCrush

QuoteWith the current points system you can even win class championships, just by going to every round and not even finishing in the top 3. Look at the Midatlantic region. 13 rounds from Summit Point, West Virginia to Daytona , FL. a span of around 900 miles. Not many people can afford all that. For class championships I think your 2 worst rounds should be dropped.

If you want to win a championship, going to all the rounds in a region is usually a good start.

Super Dave

Would anyone like to start with the current CCS Points system.  It pays points well past the number of entries for most events.

So, If you have a race with seventeen racers in it, the guy that finishes first gets 65 points.  The guy in last gets 34 points for showing up...that's more than half.

Try this one out...

http://www.formulausa.com/points/ccspoints/archive/Great%20Plains%20Overall

Ten riders in the top ten for Amateur.  The performance index obviously reflects how well the rider finishes.  The points reflect that index multiplied by the number of races.

Our top finisher entered probably about 119 races.

Number two about 130.

There's your two guys going "after" the championship.

Third place guy entered a good number of races...about fifty-two, still a substantial number less than the ones above him.  

If he could have afforded another bike and entry fees and tires...there would have only been 160 points between him and first...but because of the "cost" that another could incur, there's almost 3500 points between them....

To compete for the championship, racer number three would have had to more than double the number of entries he had...'bout 67 more.

At $30 each, that's more than $2k in entries alone.  

Double the tire bill?  Yeah.  Another $2k?

My recommendation has been to change the points system and to limit the number of races that count toward the championship.

I don't think you have to limit the number of races a guy can enter.  Let him or her enter fifteen, but only allow four or five of their best finishes to count toward the overall championship.















Super Dave

StumpysWife

Quotehttp://www.formulausa.com/points/ccspoints/archive/Great%20Plains%20Overall



Our top finisher entered probably about 119 races.







Actually, according to my records our top finisher entered 62 races.  

He also didn't go to one round which, in theory, gave up class championships.  He got a bargain on his "purchased" plate I guess.  

He did race his @$$ off.  I'd like to see someone tell him to his face that he didn't.


Heather
 

extrakt0r

QuoteActually, according to my records our top finisher entered 62 races.  

He also didn't go to one round which, in theory, gave up class championships.  He got a bargain on his "purchased" plate I guess.  

He did race his @$$ off.  I'd like to see someone tell him to his face that he didn't.


Heather
 


I don't think SD was talking about Stumpy, he was taling about the #1 AM Plate holder which had 6115 Points...

Stumpy had 3843...Don't think it would take 119 Races to get 3843 Points, which is why I think SD it talking about the #1 AM Plate...


Mike Simone
CCS/ASRA Great Plains EX #619
www.teamsimoneracing.com

2005 CCS AM Unlimited GP Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperBike Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperSport Champion

Super Dave

QuoteTen riders in the top ten for Amateur.

Thanks, Mike...
Super Dave

Protein Filled

QuoteHe did race his @$$ off.  I'd like to see someone tell him to his face that he didn't.
 

I'll tell him,  if he shows up at the track sometime!  :P ;D ;D

Oh, wait, let me clarify that a bit, the "motorcycle roadracing racetrack" ;)
Edgar Dorn #81 - Numbskullz Racing, Mason Racin Tires, Michelin, Lithium Motorsports



Don't give up on your dreams! If an illiterate like K3 can write a book, imagine what you can do!

Super Dave

You just have to figure out the races one finished.  You can pay for races and not race.  You won't get any points if you don't show up...won't count against a performance index...

But, regardless, 65 =1000.0

You win a race, you get 65 points and you have a performance index of 1000.0.

This is pretty easy....

The performance index is a percentage of the available points.  65 is for first.  Win every race, you'll have a performance index of 1000.  Anything less, well...you're not winning every race.  Basically, you can figure out the average of a riders finishing position.  Probably not exact, but...whatever.  PI is pretty straight forward.  Figure out how many points a rider would get based on their PI, then divide it into their points...should give some idea of how many races a rider actually showed up for.  Might have entered more, but this would be based on the number that a rider showed up for.

If someone knows other wise, do tell...
Super Dave

Super Dave

1209      789.3      DAVE ROSNO, EAGLE, WI.

My performance idex is 789.3.

Basically, I averaged 78% of 65 points everytime I went out and raced.  Might have got second, might have pulled off in the rain, whatever, each one has points.

Multiply 65(points for a win) by .78(my pi)...you get 50 points.  That's fifth place.  

Take the 50 point average for each race and divide it into 1209, my total points for the Great Plains Region.  24.8...Seems to be similar to the number of Great Plains race classes that I competed in.
Super Dave

Super Dave

205     788.0   DAVE ROSNO, EAGLE, WI.

Similar stuff...

I've only raced one CCS event this year due to various circumstances...

Again, similar pi puts me at 50 points and 5th place.

One event at Blackhawk.  Entered MWGP, ULSS, MWSB, ULGP, and MWSB.

Five races.  I decided to sleep through ULSS because I was tired, and I just didn't feel like racing in the rain at that moment.

http://www.formulausa.com/results/ccs/052805%20Blackhawk%20Results/document_view

4th in MWSB, 3rd MWGP, 7th ULGP, 5th MWSS...not listed in ULSS because I didn't show up at all on the grid.
Super Dave

StumpysWife

QuoteThanks, Mike...


Ooops.  Thanks.  I usually don't think AM for top 10.   ;)

Heather

Super Dave

LOL, I used the AM's to illustrate... ::)

I'm just stirring pots today, eh?
Super Dave

BadBones

We all buy our wins.
Money = resources

If you modified your bike, have an extra set of wheels, change tires more than once on a race weekend, use rain tires, anything other than 93 octane.....
Any advantage you have over the next guy that involves money is a form of buying success.  But that is part of what makes motocycle racing so much fun - this isn't Nascar, we don't want parity.

If parity is desired, then I have suggestions -

Fat index - I weight 250, so anyone under 250lbs must wear a weight belt to bring them up to mass.

Age index - I am an old man and think young people have to much advantage.  Anyone who doesn't need assistance swinging their leg over the bike must start in the back.

Wuss index - I have seen people crash and then make it to the next race.  This is insane.  Hell, it takes me 2 - 4 weeks to recover form tipping my bike over when I can't swing my leg high enough.  

Fitness index - I agree we limit the number of races that count.  After 3 races I can barely walk. Any fit enough to complete more than 3 races will not be permitted to race period.

Consistancy Index - When I crash all points accumulation halts.

Now that's fair

spyderchick

QuoteWe all buy our wins.
Money = resources

If you modified your bike, have an extra set of wheels, change tires more than once on a race weekend, use rain tires, anything other than 93 octane.....
Any advantage you have over the next guy that involves money is a form of buying success.  But that is part of what makes motocycle racing so much fun - this isn't Nascar, we don't want parity.

If parity is desired, then I have suggestions -

Fat index - I weight 250, so anyone under 250lbs must wear a weight belt to bring them up to mass.

Age index - I am an old man and think young people have to much advantage.  Anyone who doesn't need assistance swinging their leg over the bike must start in the back.

Wuss index - I have seen people crash and then make it to the next race.  This is insane.  Hell, it takes me 2 - 4 weeks to recover form tipping my bike over when I can't swing my leg high enough.  

Fitness index - I agree we limit the number of races that count.  After 3 races I can barely walk. Any fit enough to complete more than 3 races will not be permitted to race period.

Consistancy Index - When I crash all points accumulation halts.

Now that's fair


Now see? There's a man who's thinkin'! :o ;) ;D
Alexa Krueger
Spyder Leatherworks
414.327.0967
www.spyderleatherworks.com
www.redflagfund.org
Do or do not, there is no "try".

Jeff

hehe... and let's have a race where people faster than me have to start that proportional distance behind me...   ;D
Bucket List:
[X] Get banned from Wera forum
[  ] Walk the Great Wall of China
[X] Visit Mt. Everest

extrakt0r

QuoteWe all buy our wins.
Money = resources

If you modified your bike, have an extra set of wheels, change tires more than once on a race weekend, use rain tires, anything other than 93 octane.....
Any advantage you have over the next guy that involves money is a form of buying success.  But that is part of what makes motocycle racing so much fun - this isn't Nascar, we don't want parity.

If parity is desired, then I have suggestions -

Fat index - I weight 250, so anyone under 250lbs must wear a weight belt to bring them up to mass.

Age index - I am an old man and think young people have to much advantage.  Anyone who doesn't need assistance swinging their leg over the bike must start in the back.

Wuss index - I have seen people crash and then make it to the next race.  This is insane.  Hell, it takes me 2 - 4 weeks to recover form tipping my bike over when I can't swing my leg high enough.  

Fitness index - I agree we limit the number of races that count.  After 3 races I can barely walk. Any fit enough to complete more than 3 races will not be permitted to race period.

Consistancy Index - When I crash all points accumulation halts.

Now that's fair



LMAO....

But in reality...Do you think Dale Jr's car is the same as a Nascar Backmarker? Doubtfull...

But that stuff was pretty darn funny...  ;D
Mike Simone
CCS/ASRA Great Plains EX #619
www.teamsimoneracing.com

2005 CCS AM Unlimited GP Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperBike Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperSport Champion

Super Dave

No, but he and his crew are better at set up.

Even if we limited it to one race, you can't take into account practice time, tires, or budget.

But there are only so many points available for anyone in one race...in CCS 65.

So, a class championship does have some advantages in at least evening out the field that way.  

Even then, in club racing, the biggest budget does not always win.

(I do still like the idea of making everyone reasonably even on weight.)

But NASCAR doesn't allow the Busch points to count toward the overall NASCAR championship....

Or any other races...
Super Dave

ekraft84

QuoteMy recommendation has been to change the points system and to limit the number of races that count toward the championship.

I don't think you have to limit the number of races a guy can enter.  Let him or her enter fifteen, but only allow four or five of their best finishes to count toward the overall championship.

Exactly.  To me this makes perfect sense.  It still lets CCS make their money, as people will still enter extra classes to get those extra few points by taking their top X number of races for points.  While at the same time, racers don't have to go broke competing for an overall championship.

In the end, it's cool to chase it, but the toll it takes on the wallet, the rider and the bike just isn't worth it.  I'd much rather have a class championship than an overall championship I bought with 9 entries per weekend.

Eddie Kraft - #48
Witchkraft Racing
Honda East Racing - Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Aprilia

Super Dave

I've had both.

The Overall Championship...

In capitals...

is that...the Overall championship.  It's kind of nice to put a big one on your bike.  It does make one a target;  someone to shoot after or run into.

How many overall champions did not ride a 600 as a primary bike?

There are lightweight riders there that are certainly deserving of the title of overall champion...

Super Dave

Xian_13

Quote1209      789.3      DAVE ROSNO, EAGLE, WI.

My performance idex is 789.3.

Basically, I averaged 78% of 65 points everytime I went out and raced.  Might have got second, might have pulled off in the rain, whatever, each one has points.

Multiply 65(points for a win) by .78(my pi)...you get 50 points.  That's fifth place.  

...

Dave, your math is wrong.
If the grids where full, maybe it would work out that way.

Case and point, RA UnGP Sunday AM.
My motor was sick, I went out and put in one lap.
There where 9 riders, so I finished 9th.
PI=111.111
By your math I should have recieved 7 points.
But under CCS rules, I took home 42 points.

Maybe we should adopt a point system like "Arroyo Seco".
Read your rule book, they have it printed out.

XIII
CCS/ASRA Midwest #140
Secondary Highway & Swift Molly's Motor Circus
facebook.com/SwiftMolly
Michelin • STT

extrakt0r

QuoteDave, your math is wrong.
If the grids where full, maybe it would work out that way.

Case and point, RA UnGP Sunday AM.
My motor was sick, I went out and put in one lap.
There where 9 riders, so I finished 9th.
PI=111.111
By your math I should have recieved 7 points.
But under CCS rules, I took home 42 points.

Maybe we should adopt a point system like "Arroyo Seco".
Read your rule book, they have it printed out.

XIII


You two are comparing different Logics...

SD is comparing his average points won per race, over the whole season...

You are using his formula to calculate your points for a single race...

That is the difference. SD's Math isn't wrong, you are just mis-using his logic trying to calculate for a single event vs. a season average...

Re-read his post...


"Might have got second, might have pulled off in the rain, whatever, each one has points."

 8)
Mike Simone
CCS/ASRA Great Plains EX #619
www.teamsimoneracing.com

2005 CCS AM Unlimited GP Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperBike Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperSport Champion

Xian_13

QuoteYou two are comparing different Logics...

SD is comparing his average points won per race, over the whole season...

You are using his formula to calculate your points for a single race...

That is the difference. SD's Math isn't wrong, you are just mis-using his logic trying to calculate for a single event vs. a season average...


Read Again...

QuoteMultiply 65(points for a win) by .78(my pi)...you get 50 points.  That's fifth place.  

No, his math is based off of his PI (Preformace Index.)

I am not debating his logic...
But the "math" he is basing that logic off of is Wrong.

Mine is an Axiom, his is a logic used for understanding.
Do I need to be more clear?

XIII
CCS/ASRA Midwest #140
Secondary Highway & Swift Molly's Motor Circus
facebook.com/SwiftMolly
Michelin • STT

extrakt0r

QuoteRead Again...


No, his math is based off of his PI (Preformace Index.)

I am not debating his logic...
But the "math" he is basing that logic off of is Wrong.

Mine is an Axiom, his is a logic used for understanding.
Do I need to be more clear?

XIII


I think what he is try to say that over the course of the season, based off his PI and Total Points, he had an average finish of 5th Place, which yeilds 50 Points...

By taking his PI and Multiplying it by 65, which is the maximum points you can get, you get your average finish place... in his case 50.7 Points per race, or an average finish of 5th place...

I don't see what part you are saying is "wrong"

 ???
Mike Simone
CCS/ASRA Great Plains EX #619
www.teamsimoneracing.com

2005 CCS AM Unlimited GP Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperBike Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperSport Champion

Xian_13

Quote...
By taking his PI and Multiplying it by 65, which is the maximum points you can get, you get your average finish place... in his case 50.7 Points per race, or an average finish of 5th place...

I don't see what part you are saying is "wrong"

 ???

The PI is a Hard number.
It calculated by taking the number of people in the race and where you finished in respect to them.

It is NOT a % of the of first place points.

if you finished 2nd out of 50, your PI=980
if you finished 2nd out of 5, your PI=800

As you can see, the number of people in a race effects the PI.
Only if, there were 13 people racing, and you finished 2nd... Would the PI (923) be a correct %.

XIII
CCS/ASRA Midwest #140
Secondary Highway & Swift Molly's Motor Circus
facebook.com/SwiftMolly
Michelin • STT

ahastings

QuoteI've had both.

The Overall Championship...

In capitals...

is that...the Overall championship.  It's kind of nice to put a big one on your bike.  It does make one a target;  someone to shoot after or run into.

How many overall champions did not ride a 600 as a primary bike?

There are lightweight riders there that are certainly deserving of the title of overall champion...

A championship can easily be won on a lightweight bike with the current points systems since they give so many points so far back in the field and all you have to do is complete one lap to get points. Look at Nate Kern in the Midatlantic this year. He has 4479 points already, mostly earned on his BMW. With a few earned on his ZX-10.He probably runs 10 or more classes a weekend. Look at his PI , you have to go all the way down to 12th then 19th to find lower ones. Not saying he isn't a good rider, but he is just collecting points on his BMW. He is using the system the way it is designed with good financial backing . So what that has done is made it impossible for anyone else to chase the championship, so much for CCS system of getting more people to run more classes. We all need to petition CCS to change their points system this fall for next season into something more meaningful. If they get enough emails and letters maybe something will change. I know I will be writing a proposal. Don't know if it will help or not.
Arnie
A&M Motorsports
Mid-Atlantic VP Fuel Vendor

extrakt0r

QuoteThe PI is a Hard number.
It calculated by taking the number of people in the race and where you finished in respect to them.

It is NOT a % of the of first place points.

if you finished 2nd out of 50, your PI=980
if you finished 2nd out of 5, your PI=800

As you can see, the number of people in a race effects the PI.
Only if, there were 13 people racing, and you finished 2nd... Would the PI (923) be a correct %.

XIII


Ok, I understand now....

But at the end of the season, once you have your overall PI and total points, can you not the use SD's formula to get your average finish?
Mike Simone
CCS/ASRA Great Plains EX #619
www.teamsimoneracing.com

2005 CCS AM Unlimited GP Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperBike Champion
2005 CCS AM Unlimited SuperSport Champion

Xian_13

QuoteOk, I understand now....

But at the end of the season, once you have your overall PI and total points, can you not the use SD's formula to get your average finish?

No you can't.
While SDs logic is not that far off, the PI numbers don't have any relationship to the points.

Right now, my PI is junk, but I have enough points to be leading one class and 4th in another.
Thus me posting the problem with using this logic.

The ASMA point structure would be ALOT closer to the PI.
Infact the ASMA point structure would help cure the "Buying of the title".
In AMSA, if there are 15+ racers and you go out for only one lap you end up with zero points.
The whole structure is based off giving points for the # of riders behind you. With bonuses for the top 15.

XIII
CCS/ASRA Midwest #140
Secondary Highway & Swift Molly's Motor Circus
facebook.com/SwiftMolly
Michelin • STT