1991 and older bikes

[CaSpEr_Dude]

Kevin
some of us would like to run in the light weight classes like Lw super bike  LW GP
 all the bike that run in those classes are SV and some fzr 400 that are not stock any way we would like to be able to run 1991 or older 600 s in those class as well
because our bikes are only competitive against those bike we are at about 86 to 87 horse and some of the svs are well over that and so are the fzr 400
we can run with these bike and have half a chance
not like with the 110 hrs power 600 out of the box!!!!
in the middle weight class where we are in the way !

[roadracer797]

Casper
I think 92 and older myself, but what you say is so true.

[CaSpEr_Dude]

ya ok 92 or older this the only way we can compete
plus the mweight and h weight a light weight points do not count over all so who can we compete!!

[Super Dave]

Almost seems equitable.  

I know my supersport F2 (1992 model) had 94HP.  Superbike ones made 108HP.  My F2 weighed in at 410# at Brainerd in 1993 with some fuel in the tank.  SV's weigh less and can make 100HP but not necessarily reliably.  

[Dawn]

Hey guys...

If this would possibly go through, I would lose my street bike!  Paul would just need to put my '91 ZX-6 back on the track

Dawn  

[sdiver68]

If they did that I think a superbike F2 would become the new bike to beat, displacing the SV, which might not make Suzuki happy.  I had one of the first F2's to make it Stateside, a 1991 model, so maybe you'd have to go 90.... :o

How about limiting 90 something or older to Supersport prep?  But then enforcement becomes difficult, not that it isn't for other classes as well.

[CaSpEr_Dude]

why would suzuki be unhappy it was one of the hotest selling bikes the last two years and it will not stop any time soon it a cheap and easy bike to get going on the trackand besides  they have tons of race already and we are still competetive with the sv.The
handling package is 10 times the f2 any there is not alot of them around any more anyway
!
I'm just asking for 2 more classes and a lightweightsuperbike is putting out more than 90 some hrs power and dave like you said hp dose not mean much any way at the track that we do !!
92 AND OLDER  WOULD WORK it would bring back all the older bikes back and get more racer out there .it would be something that some people could afford
in this day and time and it would bring more money to the ccs alot of guy run only a few races with the older bike cuz they are sick of getting there ass motored on the straight anyway and this would bring them out on the track giving ccs more money and us older bikes a better chance to compete in some race we couldn't and would try other wise

[Super Dave]

You would look at it as a performance index.  

Kevin would be the guy to talk to.

Write up something saying exactly how it should be in the rule book, get it to us on the board, and then we can refine it and send it in to Kevin with our names.  

[Dave_Alexander]

86 to 87 HP!!  Why don't we just leave the lightweight classes to the lightweight bikes?  My EX500 superbike puts out 54HP and my Skorpion is closer to 40.  You're comparing your 86HP 600 to the most heavily modified and expensive bikes in the class.  Try comparing it to the relatively stock lightweight bikes (even SV's) and your older 600 still has a significantly unfair advantage.  I don't want to have to build an unreliable $10K SV just to be competitive with your 600.  If you're unhappy that your 10 year old 600 isn't competitive anymore then buy a newer one.  By trying to move your middleweight bike into the lightweight class you're just adding to the costs involved for all the other LW racers.

BTW, this is all just my opinion.  It may sound a little harsh but it's not intended to be.

[Dawn]

Gosh Dave...

Why don't you let us know how you really feel.   ;)

Just teasing.

Dawn   :D

[wera331]

86 to 87 HP!!  Why don't we just leave the lightweight classes to the lightweight bikes?
I was thinking the same thing I dont think I'd have any kind of a chance agianst those motorcycles with my 65 hp. : but, I've got a 92 gsxr 750 with only 100 hp. can I race that in lightweight too?

[Dave_Alexander]

Gosh Dave...
 
Why don't you let us know how you really feel.  

Yeah, I know.  It even sounded bad as I read it.  I didn't mean to come across as angry or anything.

It's just that SV's have already raised the bar so much that practically no other LW bike stands a chance anymore.  Adding older 600's that start out with 85+HP will only compound the situation.  It wouldn't be so bad if SV's were plentiful in the $1500 range like some of the other LW bikes.  :D

[sdiver68]

Hey Casper didn't mean to rain on your parade...just saying that your proposal would make the F2 the GSXR1000 of the LW classes.

How about another class, call it Formula 3000, with a $3000 claiming rule? LOL, now THAT would be entertainment ;D

[Super Dave]

Ok, it might not be such a good idea.

Here's why I think that.  

I know that Ed Key and Mike Reibe got into the very high 17's at BFR on their supersport SV's.

In 1993 on F2's, we were doing 15's and 16's.  That wouldn't make you a leader in a current production 600 race, but it would put you worlds ahead in LWSS, let alone LWSB which isn't going to be much faster.

[FullMoonRacing]

F2's in LW?  Ridiculous.  As has been mentioned, you're incorrectly generalizing the "100HP SV's" to the entire LW class.

[the_weggie_man]

This is the reality of the sport. In any mechanized competition, machines evolve. Someone builds the killer bike for the class, whatever class it is and everyone chases them.

Over the years think RZ's, GPz's, FZR's, CBR's, GSX-r's. F1's, F2's, F3's and on, R6's, ZX's, and so forth.
It happens, you have to upgrade equipment to stay competitive.

Moving midweights to lightweight and so forth is not the answer.  Sportsman class was supposed to handle most of this stuff. Your bike just happens to be in that gray area where it's being killed by new stuff but not old enough for other classes.

The situation calls for you to either upgrade to a newer midweight or buy a lightweight. Either is going to cost you money. Nobody ever said racing was cheap.  

There are some low dollar SV's around if you do some serious looking.  I know of a couple Sv's that sold in the $1,500 range this year. Yeah they needed some work but they're out there. You should be able to move into a decent SV for under $5K.

[the_weggie_man]

Da-n man, I just went shopping on the web a little bit just to see what's out there and you can buy a whole lot of better bike for under $5K. There's competitive stuff all over for low bucks.  

All those guys that just have to have the latest and greatest are selling things reasonable. Even though they haven't ridden what they have to it's full potential yet.

Just love those guys that think the only thing that will make them faster is a new bike.

[CaSpEr_Dude]

ok guys if you are going to coment then READ the whole damb post cause if you look at the one that started all this you would see that was aking for just the lw superbike and the lw GP not all the stinking lw weight classes Edgar Dorns bike is faster than my 600 hell pulls my hard in the straights .
you 100 hrpower gxsr is a 91 or old have fun than I don't care if I have to run against it I doo every race weekend in the middle weight class my WHOLE point to this is to have fun with more competetive bikes like the sv fzr 400 and 250 they all are  around the same when it comes to raceing in the super bike class and GP classes Mark styles can kiss most of our ass and his bike is legal in the Gp what worng there ! nothing alot has to do with rider I feel I'm faster ridr than some in the back half of the track but then you get to the straights good by sv ! once again I was only taling about the SUPER BIKE AND GP LIGHTWEIGHT CLASSES !!!!! CHILL OUT GUYS

[CaSpEr_Dude]

OK THATS FINE WHEN CAN EXSPECT THAT CHECK FOR 5K SO I CAN GO GET MY BIKE !
if my bike is a middle weight bike than let me run in the middle weightsportsman class I can't do that so the only one is the heavy weight but my bike is a 600 heavy weight bikes are 750 and bigger what th heck is that all about then !
lesten as I said before just in the lwsuper bike and gp lw and waggie I fi'm not misstaken didn't your sv put out over 110 ponys ya thats what I heard !
and what ed keys is over a 100 his super bike one or wait that is you old bike right can get all straight !

[Dawn]

Jees Casper....

Chill out!  

Everyone has someone thy feel that they cannot compete against.  How do you think Paul felt competing against Jesse Janish?

Dawn   :)

[CaSpEr_Dude]

he felt the same way I did thats why I'm asking for the rule change in the super bike and Gp lw weight classes !!!!!!!!!!

[Dawn]

No - he realizes that even with his stock SV there won't certain people or machines that will have the advantage.  It is a part of racing at the club level.

Dawn  

P.S.  Please also remember that it is not just adults reading this BBS, kids are too.
 ;)

[CaSpEr_Dude]

dawn please say what ever you are saying again cuz I read it over and over and I must be missing what you are trying to say !
and what was the ps thing about ?

[Dawn]

Never mind....

The P.S. thing - WERA, Chicagoland, and other BBS that are out there are, on certian threads down right vulgar.  Everyone is trying to come up with creative ways to swear online without the controls set up by the monitor of the BBS catching it.

I have a 10 year old, and I am sure that I am not the only one with a child, who is getting into the racing scene and wants to get a feel for the atmosphere and the issues regarding racing.  They don't need to be reading that kind of stuff.  It doesn't help make the point either (or at least in my mind).

Call me an old prude, but a persons point can be made without the profanity.

Dawn  

[the_weggie_man]

Hey casper, take it easy man.

#1, I don't ride an SV and Ed Key does not ride my old one.  Also I'd like to see the 110 hp SV, it would have to be a ticking time bomb.

My point is bikes get old and you can't have a class for everything so you need to update or live with it.

My reference to guys not riding up to their bikes potential was not directed to you. It was for the guys that think they need a new bike to go faster, therefor buying new bikes every year and dumping their old ones relatively cheap. You gotta love 'em cause the rest of us can update without paying the big bucks. Got it?

Oh, one more thing, for Dawn.  Jesse Janisch's bike is stock except for a pipe and jet kit, no other engine work at all. Not even a fresh top end to start out. Something like 72 hp.  They bought it as a light crasher for $1,500 did the suspension, body work, threw on tires and went to the track. No dyno time, no suspension set up until his 2nd or 3rd weekend out.  He just plain rides the freakin' wheels off it.

[Dawn]

Oh, one more thing, for Dawn.  Jesse Janisch's bike is stock except for a pipe and jet kit, no other engine work at all. Not even a fresh top end to start out. Something like 72 hp.  They bought it as a light crasher for $1,500 did the suspension, body work, threw on tires and went to the track. No dyno time, no suspension set up until his 2nd or 3rd weekend out.  He just plain rides the freakin' wheels off it.

Yeah I know, but when Jesse started racing, Paul really started to feel old...

15 years old vs 36 years old
130 lbs vs 230 lbs
a feeling of invicibility vs "I gotta' go to work on Monday"

Someday when Jesse is racing with the "big boys" Paul will be able to say...  "yeah I raced with him and he kicked my butt even then"

Dawn   ;)

[Super Dave]

Yes, Jesse is special.  I'll leave it at that.  

Superbike rules have certain perameters.  But if we talk about the sheer performance of a motorcycle, they just fit into a certain area.  So, I did a 13 on my stock GSXR600 (pipe that was broken that day, shock, forkwork, bodywork, braided lines, Barnett Clutch springs, Power Mist TO137 that weekend - all my secrets are out, big deal).  Several years prior I was doing 16's on an F2.  It was a full supersport motor making 94HP.  Fastest times on 600's then were 15's, unless someone can say someone did a 15 that year.  

Now, Ed Key and Mike Reibe both did high 17's this year.  I think Ed's supersport bike makes 73HP.  That's still a ways back from the 16's and 15's of the supersport F2's.  And I would have to say that Ed and Mike are probably doing a very good job, going about as fast as they can go.

So, if your F2 is not going those speeds, we've got some real issues on why.  First, you do weigh a bit more than I do, the last time I saw you.  That is a huge thing for acceleration.  Next, the suspension set up.  It might be just not working right.  HP is really last.  My GSXR600 dyno-ed at 104 in 2001 doing a 13.  That is not special where I had an advantage.  

I see good ideas on both sides for why and why not.  But if you can lean me a bit more on the why, I think we'd all see reason to support you in this.

[CaSpEr_Dude]

1st  Dawn at what point did I try using bad lingo in my post and second at what point did you start to hate me that s fine if you do but give a guy a reason !
ok waggie What set me off is the old grape vine bs
I was trying to get older bike in at the lw super bike and lw gp class because they are very compete but every one read as I was trying to get them in with the all lw class NO NO NO k3s bike is much faster than my f2 and eds bike is way faster than mine and edgar dorn and jesse and so on these bikes and riders are all comptetive with me and my bike and same with  other f2 riders  such as Owen he had a hell or a time with the sv and he is skinny unlike me and his weight is down there !
ok about your old sv I may be mistaken but i do think I'm not do you have a sv if not ok what ever
but if you do I get my work done buy some one that knows you guys the ed key group and I was told by these people that you guys got 110 out of an sv ok what ever if not cool but it  is true the hp might not be there with a sv but the torque is witch make that little sv go a whole lot faster than my in line 4 you can not disagree there!! so inconclusion I was tick because you guy where not read all the posting befor you started writing your opions everyone can have but make sure you know what was said pryor

[roadracer797]

Casper
As someone else who has an older bike I'm totally with you and if these other peoplr can't understand then piss on them, we are just trying to run in a class where our bikes would be competitive. Oh heck just put the casper jinx on them all
Craig

[Dawn]

1st  Dawn at what point did I try using bad lingo in my post and second at what point did you start to hate me that s fine if you do but give a guy a reason !

Casper...  I don't hate you.  Where did you come up with that?   ???

Bad lingo...  

ok guys if you are going to coment then READ the whole damb post cause

Mark styles can kiss most of our ass

Dawn   :)

[Super Dave]

Ok, old bikes.  

I ride a lot older bikes.  And the basic problems always apply to older bike.  One, everyone forgets to get the geometry correct and suspension right.  That is the key.  The SV is common, so the guys that are really running them fast have them working correctly so that they can go in faster, maintain that speed, and then get out quickly.

Eventually, money and time permitting, I'll put my 500 Kaw triple on the track.  It's a 1975.  I fully expect to do 18's on it, when I get the geometry correct, and the engine at the correct state of tune.  It still won't have the HP of Superbike SV's or Supersport f2's.  

As for SV's making 110!  Haven't hear it.  I have heard of 97 to 100HP.  And they blow up.

[Dawn]

As for SV's making 110!  Haven't hear it.  I have heard of 97 to 100HP.  And they blow up.

Didn't Edgar go through three motors this year? or was it only two?

Dawn

[CaSpEr_Dude]

well dawn as far as the bad lingo gose I hope you do not let your son go very far from your pit cuz damb and they other word that you thought was bad
that I said that is nothing compared to what is being said all weekend at the track in many diff. pits enough of that .
Edgar only went through one motor this year that I know of and it was down in daytona and he said that was because he had the jetting wrong.
Dave I heard of this 110 sv through some guys that do work with a company that I deal with and It could have been bs but seeing what these guys do with bikes I could believe it .
And I agree getting a bike set up is half the battle
with that  being said there are very few of us that are that good at that  type of thing but I did have my set up by Ed with track side  !! ok it is as good as it is going to get Until I loose weight wich is what I am in the process of doing but still the older bike can only do so much so in the rule book for the older bike in those two class that I and other would like to run It could limit the things you can do to the older 600 such as supersport legal only in the superbike and gp lw classes.You and I know the bike is only as good as the rider right Dave you can have that 600 set up perf. but if the rider can't ride the bike won't win!
I road an sv at Black hawk Dave and it was set up for a female rider that was alot lighter than me about 200lbs. not only Did I beat edgar Dorn but I ran my fast lap to this date there ! why is that ?you can ask mark style wife if you like she was timming me on that day and did not even know till she told me .I mean if the geometry is what it takes than whats up with that .You said you would hope to be in the 18 with a 500 well you would prob.beat me cuz that is my best time with the sv and 19 and low 20  with my f2 so there you have it dave you looking for somthing for you to lean you on our said you said it your self thanks
Kenny owen ran an f2 in the hw sportsman and he was fast but not any faster than Mark ,Edgar Or jessie and he was on a f2 rebie kicks my (butt) is that better Dawn!! I hope so he's on an sv ok what more can I say about this make a class for the older bike like sdiver said 3000 class great than that would make us happy as well somthing that will go toward our over all . Not like the sportsman races that don't count this stuff about it not being fair to the lw bike in those two classes they are called super bike and gp that means you can bulid them, right than do so it seem to me that the guys that are fitting me so hard are the one that don't want to put money into ther bike to make them go faster !!!! right!!!! but in the same note you guys are telling to go and buy a newer bike if I want to compete what's the diff. OH ya you wont be spending the money. To race a superbike that means built better and faster spend the money .
But know you want to run your stock sv or what ever in those two class right and not have to spend the money !! and hope to win well Edgar spent the money and can't race the other light weight class
but yet he was able to bring home 5 champ. this year and what like a 3 rd over all ! at black hawk
he didn't complain cuz

he modified it to make it faster
faster thatn a f2 .those running in the SUPERBIKE AND GP CLASS.
Dave  Alexander I see your point but do you run those Bike in the superbike and gplw classses if so how do you do !  in them!!
And Full Moon racing you are generalizing that all f2 are 90 some hrs power that is not the case a stock f2 pipe and jet 87 hrs power and that is with a fresh rebuild! Dave I do not know where you get your dyno done but man it could really help sell bikes with those reading . AND dAVE IF YOU ARE TRYING TO SELL ME ON YOUR CLASSES IT WORK ILL take some NEXT YEAR!!!!
LOL ;D ;D ;D

[CaSpEr_Dude]

Oh YA
I also read on here that an ex500 holds the number one plate in one of the other regions so is it really the Bike !!!!! or rider

[EX#996]

well dawn as far as the bad lingo gose I hope you do not let your son go very far from your pit cuz damb and they other word that you thought was bad

Kenny owen ran an f2 in the hw sportsman and he was fast but not any faster than Mark ,Edgar Or jessie and he was on a f2 rebie kicks my (butt) is that better Dawn!!

Casper:

We have a daughter - and at the track if someone is swearing a blue streak she knows just to walk away.  Here, however, the words are in print and they don't go away unless the person that posts them removes them.  At the track, I don't hear all the profanity like a read on these BBS's.  

Sorry Casper if you thought I was singling you out, it wasn't intended that way.  It is frustrating for me to go to the other boards and be subjected to reading all that 'crap'.  A person may say to me "Well, just don't read it," but I enjoy this sport as much as anyone else out here.  

To answer your question - yes - butt is better.

If anyone thinks that I am just being a wench, just be thankful you don't have to live with me.   ;)

Dawn   :)

(are you still mad at me, Casper?)   ???

[Super Dave]

Oh YA
I also read on here that an ex500 holds the number one plate in one of the other regions so is it really the Bike !!!!! or rider

Well, the rider is responsible for riding.  So, yeah, the rider a bit factor.  If you went faster on an SV, then I see a problem with the F2.  Ed's a nice guy and all.  Did he ride your bike?  They how can he know what it's doing.  Sometimes, I have to go ride my students bikes.  The bike will do things that directly affect how you are riding it.  It gives you feed back that you use to determine how fast to go.  The bike tells you, "This is all the faster you can go, or I'm gonna throw you down in five..."  That's my job sometimes;  interpreting what the bike is saying, helping you understand that language, trying to get that fixed.  I can be simple.  I've you've got an aftermarket shock on the back, you've probably got all you need.  

We did the same things with K3.  Actually, I never got on his bike.  I could just see it at the school.  I made him do a couple of minor changes that I though might make it work better.  BANG, it clicked.  He knew how to ride decently, most of us do, but getting the translation out of the bike so that you ride faster so that you think you won't die....

I'm here to help.  

[Eric Kelcher]

As Dave has said the F2 is much more capable machine even with older tires and such then a modern SV. When looking at indexing a bike it is not what you can do on a bike but what ANY rider/bike combo can do. So you do not index the TZ250 into lightweight SB because an Oliver or Sorenson would spank that class even tho the average club rider SV-TZ is about equal .

[the_weggie_man]

Casper, you are thinking of someone else here with the SV.  The bike Ed Key rode this year is a supersport.  He did ride Dave Doe's SV at Gingerman one weekend I believe and Daytona.  He won there on his bike and Dave's.

Dave's bike at one point made 103 hp on the dyno and it is fragile at the rate.  Ed now owns that bike and will run it next year but he says he may detune it a bit to keep it more reliable.

As for comparisons on bikes and lap times. Somewhere I have the WERA sheet for track records at Blackhawk from 1981 or '82. Ed Key held the C superbike record on a stock 1981 550 GPz at a 1:21 something.  In '83 as a novice I was turning mid twenties on a box stock(WERA C production class) 1977 KZ650 Kawasaki.  These are old twin shock bikes with bias ply tires and zip for suspension adjustments.  I ran the pee out of my 6 year old 650 with 50,000 miles on it racing against the then new RZ350's, 500 Interceptors and GPzs. No whining about my bike not being competitive and no begging for another class to run in.  I just rode the h_ll out of it and managed to run up front fairly often, sometimes even winning.

So, I guess all I have to say is, quit belly aching about the bike/class stuff and ride or upgrade.

[Super Dave]

Ah, but don't forget that little chicane that you made.  1991 or 1992?  I know it was there in 1992, but I keep forgetting if they repaved it all in 1991.

In 1994, I rode a 51HP 1976 Honda CB400F, twin shocks, spoked wheels, etc.  Did 1:23's.  It was like the second time I rode that bike, so it wasn't very developed.  

Here it is.  I'm wearing the leathers that I let Mike Riebe use this year.

http://groups.msn.com/VisionsportsRidingSchools/racingwithsuperdave.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=22

[the_weggie_man]

True about the chicane but how much does it really add to a lap?  Considering now you're driving through turn 4 rather than hauling the bike down on the brakes so hard there and I'd say getting a better run through turn 5.

I'd kind of think it evens things out so lap times are not that different.  What you lost thru the chicane you make up in 4 and 5.

[Super Dave]

Seems like it added a second or two.  Seems like Andy Fenwick rode the Bimota that I helped import to the lap record in 1991.  Seemed like that was a 1:11 something.  Bob Meister did the 1:13 something then  in 1993.  Too many years, too many faces.  I remember Michael Hunter doing pretty well in 1992 on his TZ.  

I think the run into five is about the same since the radius of the exit line from the apex to the far edge of the track in four is the same.  So, given a good rider, that should be similar.  

Without the chicane, I remember coming toward four in fourth gear.  Hammer the brakes and go down two gears.  Now, you've got to watch it going into the chicane, hammer the brakes and go down to second, turn, acclerate, turn and go, then brake again.  I know some bikes don't brake going into four, but I need to on my 600.

[the_weggie_man]

You're  probably right. It's been a while since I was out there.

I'm just glad the chicane serves it's intended purpose. It does exactly what the track owners wanted it to.

[Super Dave]

Well then, maybe we just need to get you out there again.  Hmmm, I know where that KZ650 is.... 8)

[the_weggie_man]

Can't, I have a promise to my daughter to uphold from a few years back.  As a 7 year old she hit me with some logic that I couldn't argue with. After her big brother passed away she didn't want me going any where near a track again. Something about, "If something happens to you, what happens to me?"
Yeah, kind of hard to argue with that.  

[Super Dave]

Ok, no argument here, either.  We'd miss you, too.  And I do miss the boy... :'(

I remember this face from him... ;D

[the_weggie_man]

Yes, that face looks familiar.