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Racing Discussion => Racing Discussion => Topic started by: Nate R on March 23, 2005, 12:41:54 AM

Title: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Nate R on March 23, 2005, 12:41:54 AM
Alright, well, the internet is full of e-books and guides that cost $. I can't find a decent site with proposal ideas for free. (Not willing to pay for them yet)

SO, lets hear your proposal stories and/or ideas, guys! (Or gals, share your experiences!)


Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Mark Bernard on March 23, 2005, 01:50:50 AM
I propose that you.... "RUN!"   Jist kidding Nate! Good luck in your quest.
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: EX#996 on March 23, 2005, 02:45:32 AM
Paul got me drunk on blackberry schnapps and then he asked.  16+ year later.....  here we are.   ;D

Nate, it really doesn't matter to a woman how you propose as long as it comes from the heart.

Good Luck,

Dawn   ;)
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: 251am on March 23, 2005, 02:55:57 AM
   Weekend of camping/hiking/climbing at Devil's Lake. Walked in to the waterfall at Parfrey's Glen. Nothing fancy but the ring; a friend owns a diamond store. Good luck. :o    
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Jeff on March 23, 2005, 03:28:47 AM
I'm proof that the proposal doesn't matter..

(in the military)

"well, I'm getting stationed in CA in 2 months.  If you wanna come with me we need to get married.  Whadda you think?"

"yep"

Coming up on 15 years now...
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Jeff on March 23, 2005, 03:30:11 AM
OH OH OH I GOT IT!!!

Have one of the stunta boyz do a "Jen will U marry me" burnout on the straight at BHF!!!  That'll only cost you a rear tire and I'll donate that for you...
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: spyderchick on March 23, 2005, 04:13:44 AM
Nate, call me, we need to talk... ::)
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: StumpysWife on March 23, 2005, 04:32:41 AM
Christmas Eve 1995!

Ring was in a big box.  He really had me fooled.  He took pictures of me opening it and then popped the question.  

Heather

Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: tigerblade on March 23, 2005, 04:53:14 AM
I wanted to involve her 2 1/2 year old son Alex, so one evening while Sunny was in the kitchen, Alex brought her a little box and said "Marry Kris!"   8)
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: stephenr928 on March 23, 2005, 05:19:20 AM
We were in a traffic jam on the Buckman Bridge, in Jacksonville, FL.

Perhaps some background info?
She was deployed to Iceland for 6 months.  I had been trying to figure out a way to surprise her, so I started acting indifferent & distant.....Easy to do under the circumstances.  She managed to come back for a weekend "vacation", I picked her up at the base & we were driving home.  I had planned dinner & a walk on the beach that evening, but I couldn't wait!
Needless to go into further details, but yes, she was surprised.....

I guess we're at 12 years.  It's been so long I can't remember!
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Super Dave on March 23, 2005, 05:21:39 AM
Amy and I went to a family Halloween party as mafia types...suits, hats, fake shot guns...

(Is Mr Rosano Italian?)

Asked her to marry me at gun point...

Gave her a Halloween spider ring...
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: davegsxrold929r on March 23, 2005, 06:02:03 AM
i did at DAYTONA at the riders meeting., !!!!


uggg    ;)
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: tstruyk on March 23, 2005, 06:34:01 AM
well the problem with mine was that she knew I had been to the jewler that day (I think a coworker spilled the beans).  So she called me all excited wondering when I was coming home... she was almost in tears when I walked through the door.

I pulled out 2 boxes (they put one box in the other) and asked her to pick a box... she picked one, empty.  she picked the other, empty... I acted really confused and mentioned that maybe it fell out of my pocket when I pulled the box out, SHE got down on one knee to look, thats when I pulled it out of my shirt pocket and knelt down with her... she said yes  ;D

Even if its not all that creative... she'll never forget it!!

good luck and congrats!!

tim
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Photo_Chick on March 23, 2005, 07:14:31 AM
My mother in law called and told us that his sister was getting married, he looked at me and asked if I thought we could beat them down the aisle....going on 23 years   ;D
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: secularist on March 23, 2005, 07:42:08 AM
don't.








love your sliders though. ;D
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: TZDeSioux on March 23, 2005, 07:56:01 AM
Dude.. aren't you like 16? Don't get married until you're 35.
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: spyderchick on March 23, 2005, 07:57:50 AM
Wow, no, Nate's is 20 now, I believe. He and his Squeeze have been together longer than most couples. They already act like an old married couple, may as well make it official!  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: secularist on March 23, 2005, 07:58:24 AM
QuoteDude.. aren't you like 16? Don't get married until you're 35.


think vince vaughn in the beginning of Old School..."great one _____ for the rest of your life.  congratulations"
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Nate R on March 23, 2005, 08:05:04 AM
Yeah, 20 now. 3 1/2 years I've been with Jen. I'll be asking her this Summer.

Alexa, I'll be giving you a ring.  ;D
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: spyderchick on March 23, 2005, 08:11:37 AM

you're supposed to give the ring to Jen.  ;)

Besides, as cute as you are, I'm alrwady married. ;D
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Bling on March 23, 2005, 08:21:29 AM
Dont do it, run for the hills!
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Old808 on March 23, 2005, 08:31:08 AM
Do people really pay for proposal ideas?!
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Super Dave on March 23, 2005, 09:06:24 AM
Nate, have you guys talked?  She expecting the final proposal?

I think she's a sweetheart, so I understand what you're doing.
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: the_weggie_man on March 23, 2005, 09:51:40 AM
Run...run like your ass is on fire and someone's chasing you with a can of gas. ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: spyderchick on March 23, 2005, 09:55:25 AM
Take your own advice there, Mister! ;) ;D

Actual, maybe Laurel should take your advice! :o

<--------running now!!!!  :P ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Nate R on March 23, 2005, 12:15:04 PM
Dave: Yes, we sure have talked. She knows/expects that it's coming sometime in the near future, so it won't be a, umm, bad suprise.  :)
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: gma on March 23, 2005, 12:52:08 PM
Propose any way you want - it doesn't really matter.

Just never get married.

You can usually get a couple years out of the deal before they finally figure it out ...
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Super Dave on March 23, 2005, 12:57:56 PM
Your mileage may vary...

Terms and conditions apply...

You final rate might not reflect your APR...


 8)


Life's a cr@p shoot.  And no one gets out alive.  Have fun.
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: cornercamping on March 23, 2005, 01:08:14 PM
See the "Am I a sucker" thread and apply the title twards this situation  ;D

in all seriousness, it doesn't matter.  i proposed to my wife in a Jacuzzai at a fancy hotel.  But, back to reality:

"Putting an engagement ring on a girls finger is like puting a down payment on a piece of ass." - Author Confidential


 ;D ;D ;D

Congrats though.  It's hard to make the comitment that you will only have sex with that person for the REST OF YOUR LIFE !   :P  

<unless she's open to some freaky deeky stuff  :o >
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Bling on March 23, 2005, 01:08:59 PM
LOL!!!

"Run...run like your ass is on fire and someone's chasing you with a can of gas.    "
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: cornercamping on March 23, 2005, 01:11:16 PM
QuoteLOL!!!

"Run...run like your ass is on fire and someone's chasing you with a can of gas. Ê Ê"

A gas can full of VP on top of it  ;D
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Dawn on March 23, 2005, 01:29:00 PM
QuotePropose any way you want - it doesn't really matter.

Just never get married.

You can usually get a couple years out of the deal before they finally figure it out ...


You're an ________________

Some of you guys.....  No wonder why you're divorced or never found 'the right woman.'    ::)

No flipp'n respect.

Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Old808 on March 23, 2005, 01:41:54 PM
QuoteYou're an ________________

Some of you guys.....  No wonder why you're divorced or never found 'the right woman.'    ::)

No flipp'n respect.

Well guess what: for every one of us happily divorced guys, there's one divorced woman out there.  It's a 2-way street. ;)
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Dawn on March 23, 2005, 01:44:57 PM
QuoteWell guess what: for every one of us happily divorced guys, there's one divorced woman out there.  It's a 2-way street. ;)

True....

But dang!  The boy's looking at proposing to his sweetheart (she does pop up on the board once in a while, keep that in mind), don't rain on his parade.

By some of these posts- - women are the scurge of the earth.  Just to be used and then thrown to the side.  

Dawn

Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: r6_philly on March 23, 2005, 02:10:23 PM
QuoteTrue....

But dang!  The boy's looking at proposing to his sweetheart (she does pop up on the board once in a while, keep that in mind), don't rain on his parade.

By some of these posts- - women are the scurge of the earth.  Just to be used and then thrown to the side.  

Dawn


just because they were the happily divorced men doesnt mean that they weren't the problem ;)

I know I was... :P
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: TZDeSioux on March 23, 2005, 02:37:11 PM
Having my son is the best part of being married.
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Thingy on March 23, 2005, 03:46:31 PM
Any time that I think about getting married, I just recall what my frien Brian told me...

"I didn't know what true happiness was, until I got married.  By then, it was too late."  ;D

When I bought my trailer, she asked me if that was her ring...  When I bought my last race bike, she asked me if that was her ring...  In all seriousness, I don't know how I will ever be able to afford a ring if I keep racing.   :-/

Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: EX#996 on March 23, 2005, 05:26:17 PM
Paul sold a 73' Mustang Fastback with a 351 motor for my ring.....   ;D





... and is it any wonder why its in the jewelry box except for special occasions?

Dawn   :)
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: tzracer on March 24, 2005, 07:31:04 AM
QuoteTrue....

But dang! ÊThe boy's looking at proposing to his sweetheart (she does pop up on the board once in a while, keep that in mind), don't rain on his parade.

By some of these posts- - women are the scurge of the earth. ÊJust to be used and then thrown to the side. Ê

Dawn


Dawn, do you believe everything you read on the internet?  ;)

People are just giving him cr*p like they would do IRL.

Hey Nate, if you need a good deal on a ring let me know, my wife knows a jeweler that will give you a good deal. I know he did for the rings I have purchased for my wife.

You still want a copy of the Daytona races? If so email me.
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: OmniGLH on March 24, 2005, 11:38:54 AM
Congrats on making the decision to pop the question, Nate.

Personally... I wouldn't ask for proposal ideas.  IMO it should be something special between the two of you, your own idea, not someone else's.  Find a place or scenario that has personal meaning to the both of you and go from there.  The first place you met, an activity you did on your first date, or the place where you first realized you wanted to marry her, etc.  It's something you're both going to remember for the rest of your lives - make it something that is your own.

But... that's just me, I'm kind of a romantic that way.  Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Old808 on March 24, 2005, 11:47:24 AM
QuoteCongrats on making the decision to pop the question, Nate.

Personally... I wouldn't ask for proposal ideas.  IMO it should be something special between the two of you, your own idea, not someone else's.
What he said.
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: 251am on March 25, 2005, 03:57:44 AM
QuotePaul sold a 73' Mustang Fastback with a 351 motor for my ring.....   ;D

    Dang, now THAT'S love ;D



Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Jeff on March 25, 2005, 04:20:41 AM
And by the way, in case it hasn't been stressed enough, simple beats elaborate.  Less thing to go wrong...

And when you run into those who will swear you're not ready to be married, ask them who is...  I still don't think I'm ready to be married (or have kids for that matter), but I'm doing alright with the marriage and kids so far...
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: the_weggie_man on March 25, 2005, 01:04:07 PM
#1.... Don't do it in public just in case she surprises the hell out of you and says no......... :-[ :-[
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: L8brake731 on March 26, 2005, 07:33:59 PM
Hey Nate:

This is turning my stomach!!!

Hey Dawn, this kid is 20? What the F#*& is he doing with a girlfriend at this age???

Nate; look buddy, I don't know you and I really could give a S$&# about you and your girlfriend. But you got to ask yourself, 1) what is marriage going to change for ME?, 2) what is marriage going to change for her?
Answer those two questions HONESTLY  and I know you will come to your senses.

Is she supportive of everything you do? Does she give IT up as much as YOU like? Are things just going perfect with YOU and her?

Then WHY change it? We live in an litigious world these days, the only thing that changes is the FACT that she will OWN HALF OF EVERYTHING YOU HAVE.
Do you have a business? Are you investing in a 401k(a), getting a pension later? DO you own property? Do you have and trusts or inheritance.
GET A PRE-NEPTUAL drafted by an attorney and have her sign it, if she doesn't then you'll know for sure.

There are NO good reasons for a 20 year old guy to get married; NONE!!! You haven't been with enough women at 20 to know any better. Just give it the ACID test one morning when you wake up, go down to get coffee with her and both of your sleepy eyed, messed up hair awakedness, her sitting across from you, look across that table and ask yourself the question; "is this the BEST I can do for myself, for the rest of my life?"

Nate you don't know me and you will probably puss out and get married, just CYA, Bro.

Might as well make it official as SPYDERCHICK says, its putting the ball in her COURT.....You got nothing after that......

WHAT IS MARRIAGE GOING TO CHANGE.............
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: roadracer67 on March 26, 2005, 08:10:28 PM
I once had a high school teacher tell me " Don't get married until your thirty.....and if your not married by thirty, don't get married at all"  Sure wish I had listed to him!!!!
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: OmniGLH on March 27, 2005, 05:47:25 AM
QuoteWHAT IS MARRIAGE GOING TO CHANGE.............

Wow some of that was pretty harsh, and I'm not going to comment on anything but what I quoted above.

Now maybe since I'm not married, I don't "understand"... but WHY should marriage change anything?  The way I see it, it's just a way to make it "official".  Other than that, you're still the same two people.

I have 2 very good friends who have gotten married in the last ~2 years, and both of them changed completely... and consciously!  "Ok well I'm married now so I have to act differently."  It's like they had to go and turn all "adult" all of a sudden, when before the marriage, they were just as much of a "kid" as I am.  I don't go over there to "hang out"... if I do go over there, I'm now considered "company" and I've been told that now it's rude if I drop by unexpectedly (even tho they were living together before the wedding and random drop-bys were frequent without any problems.)  If they drop by my place, it's not "dropping by"... it's "visiting".  ???

I think that's the #1 sign that it WON'T work (I bet both of my friends wind up divorced.)  If it's going to change ANYTHING in a relationship.... THEN I'd say maybe you should reconsider.
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: EX#996 on March 27, 2005, 06:11:18 AM
QuoteHey Nate:

This is turning my stomach!!!

Hey Dawn, this kid is 20? What the F#*& is he doing with a girlfriend at this age???


Your post just made me sick to my stomach....

Nate, follow your heart.  Keep the lines of communication open between you and Jen and remember....  Life will throw you some curve balls now and again, but how we handle them will determine how successful your marriage will be.  Remember, marriage takes two people, not one.




L8brake 7.....

Wow....  All I can say is that by your post, you came off as a self centered a$$.  Comments like....

QuoteIs she supportive of everything you do? Does she give IT up as much as YOU like? Are things just going perfect with YOU and her?
 

Turn it around...  If she is supportive of what you do, are you supportive of her?  Do YOU give it up as much as SHE wants?  Is she going to be happy with YOU when you decide not to shave and lose that six pack and get a keg?

QuoteThen WHY change it? We live in an litigious world these days, the only thing that changes is the FACT that she will OWN HALF OF EVERYTHING YOU HAVE.   Do you have a business? Are you investing in a 401k(a), getting a pension later? DO you own property? Do you have and trusts or inheritance.  
GET A PRE-NEPTUAL drafted by an attorney and have her sign it, if she doesn't then you'll know for sure.
  

Why change it.....  Because some of us want to take the next step in our relationship....  Some of us want any children that we may have to have parents that ARE married and have the same last name....  Some of us feel that living with a 'partner' and not be married to them is a sin....

Prenuptuals in some cases are appropriate and good.  For others, when you start out with nothing, you can only go up from there.

QuoteThere are NO good reasons for a 20 year old guy to get married; NONE!!! You haven't been with enough women at 20 to know any better. Just give it the ACID test one morning when you wake up, go down to get coffee with her and both of your sleepy eyed, messed up hair awakedness, her sitting across from you, look across that table and ask yourself the question; "is this the BEST I can do for myself, for the rest of my life?"
 

Himmm.....  Lets see..... Let's test drive as many women as we can and see how the ride is....  Sorry, we're human beings, not a car.  How many STD's have you gotten with an attitude like this?  

Oh...  The ACID test in the morning?  Sorry honey, you boys don't always look the best either.  Messed up hair, walking around in your underwear and scratching your ass.  Yep, that's a pretty sight.   ::)

Remember...  Two way street buddy!

QuoteThere are NO good reasons for a 20 year old guy to get married;  

Everyone is different...  Paul was 21 and I just turned 21 when we were married.  That was over 16 years ago.  Some people are more mature than others and I know both Nate and Jen, you don't.  You have NO clue.

I certainly hope my daughter NEVER meets a man such as yourself.

Dawn  
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: spyderchick on March 27, 2005, 08:22:52 AM
Ok, I don't think Nate ever intended this to be a gender war. He and Jen have been together for a long enough time to know.

For the Record, I was 19 when I married Roger, who was 23. This was my 2nd marriage and doomed to fail. Yeah. Well nanny nanny boo boo. We're coming up on our 25th Wedding anniversay on 2 weeks!

Nate and Jen share many similarities between Roger and me, so I predict a healthy marriage for both of them. You can be 20 and really mature and 40 and incredibly immature, and that has no bearing on whether you are male or female.

PS: Nate, if you don't already, learn to put the seat down!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: EX#996 on March 27, 2005, 08:36:53 AM
QuoteWe're coming up on our 25th Wedding anniversay on 2 weeks!


Congatulations to you both!

Dawn

P.S.  Nate, take note of what Alexa said.  She is a very smart woman.   ;)
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: L8brake731 on March 27, 2005, 10:56:23 AM
Just watching out for the Bros!

Nate's a man, he will do what he wants regardless of anyones posts here.
The best suggestion I have read is to do what his heart tells him (as far as the proposal goes).
There are acceptions to my skewed attitude that has been comented on. As there are acceptions to age and getting married.

If you find that what I wrote offensive and harsh; I ask you to step back and look at the hard cold facts of statistics.

The last I read was that 3 out of 5 marriages end in divorce. The smaple groups age when married was 18-24 years of age at the time of marriage.

The most important fact of marriage remains that we are all human and prone to change. When Nate and his girlfriend do get married; as change happens, they will need to make efforts to change together and not as individuals.

I find that the racing community is a sure way to keep together and to stay involved with eachothers socail growth. Our community is diverse and extremely multi-faceted, a great place for young couples and kids too.

Keep racing as it is your passion, keep her involved, live long and prosper.

Signed-
Self Centered A$$
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Nate R on March 27, 2005, 07:38:25 PM
Wow!

Lots of comments, some good and bad.

Regardless of opinion, (and I KNEW I'd get lots of "run away" suggestions here, but I also knew there'd be some good ones) I appreciate everyone's input.

Alexa, Jen and I have noticed many of the similarities between you and Roger and us.  :)

I understand the odds are stacked against me. Statistics do say a lot about marriages in general. But that's where judgement comes in.  

Let me put it this way, no one that really knows me and/or Jen at all has advised me to rethink this. Spyder, EX996, Super Dave all know me and Jen at least a bit. (Alexa knows us both pretty well) and they all seem to be relatively supportive of the idea. (At least, I interpret Dave's question as supportive) Other people I've talked to about it also have been supportive, both family and friends.

I understand the suggestions to run away. I've seen how marriage changes some people. (Relatives, friends' parents, etc)

I've always done things at an earlier age than most others do. Racing on my own (No parental help that is), starting a legitimate business, investing, etc.
I often think a lot of it was living with an ill father for a few years, and then him dying just as I turned 13. I was forced in some ways to grow up quickly. It also forced me to learn and worry about what's really important in life.

Regardless though, I feel ready, and I don't see a need/desire to wait. Wait? Wait for what? I'm sure, and no one who knows me is saying i'm crazy or should rethink it. I don't feel like its a cr@pshoot, I feel, as it was stated, that it's just making it official, and that it makes it OK in my book to cohabitate. (touching on EX996's point)
 

TZRACER: I'll drop you a line about Daytona, and that jeweler. I could use a deal. Fortunately, jen's not big on big stones.  :D

Again, thanx for all the responses, and the support/defense from those who know me and jen.

I promise we'll do our best to not set the date on a race weekend!  ;)  ;D


Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: spyderchick on March 27, 2005, 07:44:42 PM
I get to make Jen's gown! (That is if she doesn't want to make it herself). I know it won't be strictly traditional! ;)
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: StumpysWife on March 28, 2005, 05:20:28 AM
We were 19 & 21.  The trick is to still have fun and do the crazy things you would have done in your twenties otherwise together--don't go putting on the turtlenecks and pulling your pants up to your armpits right away just because you are married.  When you go into something, always consider the fun factor!   :D  

It has nothing to do with statistics or common sense.  You know right away if you want to be with someone the rest of your life.  It's kind of like your mother or brother or whatever.  You can't imagine life without them.  

Good luck and congratulations Nate & Jen!

Heather
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: Jeff on March 28, 2005, 05:34:33 AM
I was 19 and it was the day before my wife's 18th birthday. Yep... 19 & 17...

We were doomed, but continue to prove people wrong...  I guess we're freaks...

It takes a lot to make a marriage work, and what works today may not work tomorrow.  Also, what works in my house may not in yours, and vice versa...  You have to figure it out for yourself...
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: spyderchick on March 28, 2005, 05:37:04 AM
You know, thinking about this: Your marriage must be doomed from the outset (ie, many naysayers) for it to last. It just makes you both that much more determined to make it work.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: freebird on April 03, 2005, 08:52:32 AM
 >:( This is turning my stomach!!!  

Whoever you are that replied with the above response might consider anger management!  Geez, the kid was asking a question.  If you don't have a decent answer, you should keep your jaded opinions about marriage to yourself.  Just because you apparently went down the wrong path (perhaps your own poor judgement) doesn't mean that Nate will.  I am curious to know what your status is.  Let me guess.....divorced, she wiped you out and you'll never trust another woman again!  Close?  
Title: Re: Marriage Proposal?
Post by: dylanfan53 on April 03, 2005, 09:25:00 AM
QuoteYou can't imagine life without them.  

Good luck and congratulations Nate & Jen!

Heather

My dear, you have hit the nail on the head.

Best wishes Nate, from one who has both lost and won.  ;)