Motorcycle Racing Forum

It will never be popular, and most riders and crews of teams will never be able to make a fair living....

It's a decent living for various NASCAR teams at many levels...

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=22257

And my reply...

This might be my opinion, but I would regard a manufacturer's vehicle identification number the most basic unit of consistency of origin for production based racing, that which we have in the AMA National Road Racing series.

Regarding the existence of teams, we can conjecture all day long, but If Jesse Janisch, JJ Roetlin, or Ty Howard had a frame without a VIN number in any class, things might have been different in the penalty phase?

I hear so many motorcycle racing fans complain about the penetration of NASCAR into their lives.  However, this is an example of why American motorcycle racing seems so second rate:  basic foundations of rules are bent by very specific "high" level manufacturer supported teams, and the sanctioning organizations penalties do nothing to foster general or specific deterrence for the current and potential offenders.  NASCAR has a pretty concise set of rules that each driver's team must follow for legality.

If the frame was illegal under the basic foundations to be considered a production motorcycle, the finish is not valid.  There were certainly a host of riders behind the non-VINed bikes that are actually competing for a championship.  Does their effort in following the rules not matter?  

I consider these fines to be a pat on the back to the teams that gridded their riders on bikes without VINs.  In the end, if they win the championship, or guard their rider that does have a chance at winning, the penalty has no teeth whatsoever.    

I consider these fines to be a kick to the groin to the private teams and other "lower" level manufacture supported teams.  It skews the final results for those that put in a valid effort, regardless.  In the end, a point here and a point there will matter in these championships.  Will those points matter to Jason Pridmore and Vincent Haskovec?  By the last few rounds, it will determine how much risk they will have to incur to try and capture or guard their potential chances at a championship.  That might determine their bonuses or further opportunities.  

In closing, if you were a potential sponsor from outside the motorcycle industry, would rulings like this make you more or less likely to want to financially back a rider, team, or the series?  Certainly would make less expensive opportunities with smaller teams more of a no opportunity to compete option.

As usual, very well said.
I concur with your thoughts on the matter... :(

Dave, Did you send this to the AMA?

Great response.  I'm guessing Mladin's frame had a VIN?   ::)

Heather

Good point Dave, now as to the other aspect of the story: AMA doesn't recognize teams? WTF?
I think to a certain extent almost all sanctioning bodies (F1, NASCAR, CHAMP cars) protect their golden children. It's not right, but it's a fact.

But why on earth would the AMA refuse to recognize a team? Team efforts are better marketing tools, pull in larger sponsors, and are more cost effective. We know that there are "teams" out there, does that mean "Team Honda" must consist of Team Miguel, Team Jake, And Team Kurtis? So they have 3 teams, backing each rider? That's so completely stupid; we've all observed the team concept in AMA.

So yes, I guess that gives privateers one more thing to fight against. The VIN # rule is suposed to be there for a reason. Whether they choose to enforce that rule fairly is their decision. But the Team concept? It's there, and could have been used to fine these teams significantly, enough to hurt. Even better, impound the offending frame, F1 style, and see how fast the factory "teams" (oh sorry, riders) comply.

So I guess now Suzuki racing will have to make not just custom frames for their riders, but also a machine that can stamp VIN numbers?

If only Scott Peterson had money...  He could be in the club with OJ and Robert Blake...  

Similarities abound...

So if the frames don't have VIN #'s where did they come from? Is it still considered a production frame if it doesn't have a VIN?

Another question about unfairness.

Don't get me wrong, I do realize that the top factory riders are extremely talented individuals, but how do they run away so far from the field? What is done to the "PRODUCTION FACTORY MACHINES" that privateers can't do?

If they are so extremely modified to run away that far from the field are the bikes still considered (Technically)  PRODUCTION?

I personally would really like to see a privateer team and racer place in AMA Road Racing, I'm sure alot of other people would to. Is this that far fetched? Is it really even practical to be a privateer on a PRODUCTION machine and try and compete?

Are the factory guys really cheating this much?

I think the VIN issue and Motorcycling popularity are two seperate issues.

Somehow I don't think the majority of NASCAR fans are fans and enjoy the show because of how fair the rules are.

QuoteAre the factory guys really cheating this much?

Yes and no!  Depends on what you call cheating, but the reality is that they can, so why not? They can look at a bunch of heads that come off the production line and pick the best one. They can also pick the straightest frames or make custom frames for themselves, etc. The one thing I don't get is why would they go through all that trouble and not stamp a VIN number on the bikes? Is it that difficult for them? I wouldn't think so... Also, with NASCAR, they all puch the lines as well.  Nothing new there. The crew chiefs say that their job is to cheat!

QuoteDon't get me wrong, I do realize that the top factory riders are extremely talented individuals, but how do they run away so far from the field? What is done to the "PRODUCTION FACTORY MACHINES" that privateers can't do?

They can hand pick each piston, rod, crank, etc from the parts floor to build their bikes allowing for a better balanced engine.

also, with their unlimited budgets, they can run their engine tolerances real loose for extra hp as this requires a rebuild after every race

$4000 Ohlins fork cartridges I'm sure add some.

Oh yea, and the guys are stupid fast! :D

You're right about the nascar fans.  I just made the connection that once you get really plowed, the world spins in a single counter-clockwise direction.  Thus nascar is the  only sport they can really watch.

QuoteYou're right about the nascar fans.  I just made the connection that once you get really plowed, the world spins in a single counter-clockwise direction.  Thus nascar is the  only sport they can really watch.

 ;D

QuoteYou're right about the nascar fans.  I just made the connection that once you get really plowed, the world spins in a single counter-clockwise direction.  Thus nascar is the  only sport they can really watch.

LOL!!! Go straight Turn Left!

On a more serious note about AMA PRO Racing...

What if anything can be done to make this sport more popular in the US?

Why are people so out of touch with motorcycle road racing?

Who's playing that fantasy AMA Superbike?

Anyone who is more than likely has picked Mladin as one of their riders.  Invaribly, Mladin is a very good rider.  But he's riding for a very good team.  A top line manufacturer supported team.  The possibility that Mladin would be out of the top five is almost improbable.

Does that make AMA Superbike fun to watch?

Mark Martin races for Jack Roush, right?  A top flight team with corporate support.  There isn't the kind of manufacturer support in NASCAR because of rules.  The teams are on more of an equal basis.  Yeah, some teams are better than others, but at least the playing field is more level.  

The possibility of Mark Martin winning isn't there, necessarily.  Nor is it that he will finish in the top ten.  Nor is it that he will finish in the top thirty.  

That's what has made NASCAR a popular series...

One word...

COMPETITION

Who likes Geoff May?  Anyone think that he had any chance to win an AMA Superbike race last year unless a whole lot of people fell down?

Steve Rapp?  Good rider, rode for the Ducati Factory team at one time.  Think he would have won a superbike race?

So, when you take a friend to a race and they have never been to one before, and you say, "Oh, that's Mat Mladin, he's a factory rider and he'll probably win."

What does that do?  Does that showcase the beauty of competition?  Or does it become a processional walk away?  If you wanted to just watch individual riders go around and around...I'd be happy to sell tickets to track days where you can watch something similar.

Racing...man and machine.  But there needs to be some kind of fair play.  Otherwise, what do we have?

Honda won the FX championship last year.  Great.  They were the only player.  As racers, and probably racing fans, does that championship give you a feeling of a "job well done" or do you think "yeah, they bought the championship"...

When Dale Quarterley, my friend, put together a program to lease Muzzy Superbikes in 1993 again after buying a used on in 1992, he really made the races exciting.  He flat beat the factory riders (World Champions Polen and Edwards) at MidOhio.  At one point in the race, it was nine bikes with an opportunity to win.  That was racing.

AMA racing of years gone by had races where there were maybe twenty guys that might win.  Exciting.  

Did that help fuel the boom of motorcycle purchases of the 70's?

NASCAR is a success, is it not?  Drivers, pr people, mechanics, truck drivers, suspension engineers, etc...they have paychecks.

Are AMA racers any less talented or deserving of an opportunity to make a fair living.  I'm not even talking about comfortable, I'm talking about fair.  

My first AMA National was at Road America in 1988.  Randy Renfrow, former AMA Champion at everything, complained that the AMA Superbike purse was less than the 250 GP purse from 1980.  

Can teams and riders shine in a bicycle race when they can't even get a fair opportunity to have even reasonably similar equipment?

QuoteLOL!!! Go straight Turn Left!

On a more serious note about AMA PRO Racing...

What if anything can be done to make this sport more popular in the US?

Why are people so out of touch with motorcycle road racing?

Lack of exciting competition.  

Make it better by providing an attainable and enforceable set of rules that all riders or teams must be obligated to abide by...

Go straight, turn left has those rules in place that make it exciting.  They are working with tiny issues to improve their possibility of performance.

When I was working with Dale Quarterley, he was racing an RC30 in 1991.  There were carburetors available to the Honda supported team, but no one would sell them to him even though the rules specifically stated that they must be available.

How about Forks?

How about preseason testing?  

How many teams were allowed to test at Daytona?  

Because everyone here grows up in the back seat of an SUV or mini-van and not on the back of a scooter or cycle like so many do in Europe and the Far East.

The U.S. is a car culture country hence the NAPSCAR mentality. IT WILL NEVER CHANGE......get over it and rather than worry about road racing popularity go have fun at what you do. The hell with the car jockeys and their followers.

People have been hashing this over since forever. I have magazines from the 70's and 80's with articles asking all these same questions.

You can't even get cycle riders to attend races so why do you think the average joe blow would do it? The stands at Daytona are virtually empty but Main Street is packed. What does that tell you? And remember that those same folks on Main St. are the ones filling the stands at NAPSCAR races. Hell, they'll give up a great afternoon of riding to sit in a bar and watch "stock car" racing.

As for AMA and rules......Hahahaha....yeah, they print a rule book but that's about as far as it goes.
Yates and Spies get $1,000 fines, whoopee. AMA does not recognize teams. Who the hell do they think is building these bikes, the riders themselves?

It just shows how far in the dark they are about racing as a professional sport. There needs to be an overhaul in AMA racing, starting at the top.

Very good point dave! I hope that ama racing does improve in the near future for everyone!

  The fact that everyone in the country drives a car and sportbike riders are a small percentage may have a little to do with it too. Going to a Nascar race is going to a party. Noise, beer, lunacy, a safe place to go a little nuts. Fun for spectators.
  If you couldn't get into the pits, why would anyone watch a roadrace when all you can see is 1 or 2 corners. At least at a dirttrack you can watch a race, the whole race, and there ARE, people going to the grandstands at fairground dirttracks. Not like in the 70's but still.
  Roadracing for spectators is best on TV (when it's done right) But regular TV isn't going to do it right when there isn't a big fan base.
  I think it would take real big money with sombody really ready to loose it, to run their own series, to promote, televise, pay quality purses, week in and week out, and see if it caught on. Then, non industry sponsors could and would put their brand name on a fairing. I don't think it's going to happen, too much financial risk. But than again, there is arena football so some billionairs must be willing to blow money.

We listened to the concept that racing in a stadium would bring spectators.  That doesn't work.  If it did, then Daytona, Fontana, Charlotte, Pheonix, Pike Peak, Loudon would have big spectator numbers.

They don't.

I am a racing fan.

I race motorcycles.

I will watch NASCAR for the competition that I like to see.  

Did anyone watch Baliss and Edwards beat each other up for the WSB championship a few years ago?

Anyone would find that exciting.

How much did Miguel win the Daytona 200 by?

The old line goes, "Wanna make a million dollars racing? Start with two million".

As for sponsors....when a bike can get an area as large as a car hood, roof, deck lid and quarter panels you may see someone advertising on them. How much is a sponsor going to pay for a 6x12 inch sticker placed under the fairing where it can only be seen for a fleeting instant when the bike is leaned over in a turn.

Also, when is the last time you heard any sponsors name other than the factory teams in any race announcing? You'll hear, " in the battle for tenth is Joe Blow and John Doe", but you'll never hear their sponsors names. Unlike NAPSCAR that ALWAYS says the sponsors names. to the pointof excess.

NAPSCAR is promotion heaven for sponsors. AMA is promotion hell.

Devil's Advocate...

Is it possible they "picked out" their frames before the VIN was put on?

Also, it certainly isn't Honda's fault that no other factory runs FX--if they suck so bad against other factories, why not step up and win that championship, too?  Should they have not run the 200 because no other real factory entered? Why aren't the other factories entering?  Money? Time? Riders?  What will get the best competition on the track?

Was there alot of complaining when the Superstock class was basically for Suzuki 750s?  I honestly can't remember.  I just remember thinking it was odd that there was a class for basically one bike.

Competition is what it is.  You all have seen knock-down, drag-out battles on the track in club racing.  You can't tell me that those battles were all riders on equivilent equipment.  Kind of like when the money chasers show up--either you complain about them "taking the money" or you set out to beat them.  One or the other.

Ok, I'm done.

Heather   :)

Quote from: Baltobuell 
.....  I think it would take real big money with sombody really ready to loose it, to run their own series, to promote, televise, pay quality purses, week in and week out, and see if it caught on. Then, non industry sponsors could and would put their brand name on a fairing. I don't think it's going to happen, too much financial risk. But than again, there is arena football so some billionairs must be willing to blow money.

It will be interesting to see the impact that Michael Jordan has on the issue.  Just the fact that he's sponsoring a team could draw more sponsors and lead to such things as roadracing being shown on network TV on a Saturday afternoon.  I hope it happens, I think if more people see it more people will be drawn to it.  I know that when I've had non-riding friends at my house and popped in a MotoGP or WSB DVD on the big screen, many of them have been like "Oh wow, that's awesome!".  It could happen.....  ;)

I don't know how "production" frames get a VIN in M/C manufacturing, but where Roger works (bicycle manf) the serial number gets stamped on the bottom bracket BEFORE welding and brazing ever begins.

Frames:

My guess is that the team wanted some frames, not entire bikes. The paper work is probably already in place matching frame numbers to engine numbers. So they probably plucked some frames off the assembly line prior to the frame being stamped. There is much red tape when it comes to serial numbers ( I was the production manager a Buell - when it was still an independent company).

Bike racing vs car racing:

I have raced both 2 wheels and 4 wheels. Set up is more important with a car than a bike. The driver cannot do as much to affect the vehicle as a rider can. There fore it is more difficult to get close bike racing. Bike racing has never been, and will never be as close competition wise as cars, because the rider can make a HUGE difference in the performance of the bike. I bet Val Rossi or Matt Mladan could go significantly faster on your bike than you can without making any changes. Nascar has made the cars very even, in car racing this makes for close competition. The same doesn't work for bikes. The best riders will always win, the best drivers don't always win.

QuoteFrames:

My guess is that the team wanted some frames, not entire bikes. The paper work is probably already in place matching frame numbers to engine numbers. So they probably plucked some frames off the assembly line prior to the frame being stamped. There is much red tape when it comes to serial numbers ( I was the production manager a Buell - when it was still an independent company).

This is true of Honda and I guess Buell, but blank frames are just another part you can order from the dealer when dealing with Suzuki, Yamaha, or kawasaki.  No paperwork or red tape.  I've bought em myself online with no issue

QuoteBike racing has never been, and will never be as close competition wise as cars, because the rider can make a HUGE difference in the performance of the bike.

Yes, but very good riders can battle very good riders.

Two good examples:  the MZ Skorpion Cup Series and the BMW Boxer Cup Series.

Doesn't anyone remember the BMW battle at Daytona?

Frames...yeah, they are available.  But who would have the gaul and idiocy to buck the rules and NOT have a frame VIN...




My response...


Similar to the response I had at Brainerd in like 1991 when Russell showed up at Brainerd for the 750 Supersport event with a completely dark shield when it was completely over cast...and he missed the warm up lap...




Is this the first time you raced?




Anyone think that Yosh didn't know that they were supposed to be racing production frames with VIN's?

Do we think that they didn't read this year's rule book?

QuoteYes, but very good riders can battle very good riders.

Two good examples:  the MZ Skorpion Cup Series and the BMW Boxer Cup Series. quote]


When I was at Daytona Last year (2004) the BMW boxer cup was the best race of the day. I enjoyed that race way better than watching the Superbikes.

I would like to see that close competition in AMA superbike! Hey, you gotta let a guy dream rite?!  ;)

It would be cool to give all the top guys actual off the show room floor machines, let them change tires and adjust suspension and let all the same guys run the same class "ACTUAL PRODUCTION BIKES"

QuoteIt would be cool to give all the top guys actual off the show room floor machines, let them change tires and adjust suspension and let all the same guys run the same class "ACTUAL PRODUCTION BIKES"

In other words, we could sign the factories up for the Suzuki Cup!  What would Mladin b!#@h about then?

QuoteIn other words, we could sign the factories up for the Suzuki Cup!  What would Mladin b!#@h about then?

I say we give all the guys on the Superbike grid. EVERY GUY, even all the privateer little guys like me STOCK 600's or 1000's and see who wins!

I'd LOVE to see a privateer guy beat the big factory guys in that race!  :D

QuoteIn other words, we could sign the factories up for the Suzuki Cup!  What would Mladin b!#@h about then?

You think that all the bikes in the Suzuki Cup final are equal?  

World Cup, yeah...

I'm not advocating a stock bike class.

NASCAR doesn't do that.

But something should be reasonable.

I'm some of the privateers would do very well against factory boys on equal machinery.

But lets not forget--those guys on the factory bikes got the job for a reason, and usually more often than not, it was cuz they could really ride the wheels off a bike

I doubt that, for the most part, that having everyone on equal machines would change the result completely.  

BUT....

It would be at least interesting to watch.

And this is about entertainment, isn't it...

Michael Jordan helped his program by going out and getting a couple of very good riders.

Certainly his results are better.

Did his team abide by the rules?

Is it fair that the rider in second had a motorcycle that didn't reasonably abide by the rules?

Hey, we've got MotoGP for prototype frames...take it there.  This is production based racing.  

What's the AMA points structure?

If Jason got bilked out of second place points and looses the championship because of the points that he rightfully should have received...

If Yates wins the championship by anything less than the points that he received for second place in the Daytona Superstock race...

These are scenarios that should not happen.

We do in many ways assume that the front runner for the championship will be Yates, because he's on the "factory" bike.  

Great.  Makes for almost a predetermined outcome...boring.

Superstock racing with GSXR750's a few years ago was very, very good competition.

Yeah, there wasn't the mix of manufacturers, but you had good racing in the last year.  Anyone deny that?

Daves the man !!.  My two bits.

NASCAR was run by ONE man with a dream !

And after many years he retired and let his son run things.

Now theres a new guy,   ONE GUY.  that runs the show.

AMA racing is run by a committee. (A committee by the way that has an direct involvement with racing ie. dunlop, honda,  (at least the donlop guy is gone now)  talk about conflict of interest !)  

They will never get anywhere.  Its gonna be 5 guys.  It should be embarrising that a factory racer is racing in that series.  Come on, Hackin, Disalvo, Hayden's and the other "factory" guys running superstock.  

Well, they are paid to race.  So, if the contract says to race Superstock...

Well, it's good to have a contract to be paid to race.  

It's about bragging rights for the manufacturers, not about the furthering of motorcycle racing.

The program is built for the makers of the bikes, not the sponsors (or lacking sponsors) of potential teams.

Mark Martin?  Valvoline, Viagra...

Kennseth?  Dewalt

Honestly, the manufacturers got it figured out not to one up each other so much in the 600cc wars.  Each new bike is better, just a little bit, with bold new graphics, to differentiate it from the previous edition.  It's created a mentality of two year old bikes being "outdated".  

QuoteThis is true of Honda and I guess Buell, but blank frames are just another part you can order from the dealer when dealing with Suzuki, Yamaha, or kawasaki. ÊNo paperwork or red tape. ÊI've bought em myself online with no issue

I was trying to explain why the frames have no VIN. It would be difficult to pull just a frame off the line with it having a VIN. A frame with no VIN is no big deal, a frame with a VIN is.

QuoteDoesn't anyone remember the BMW battle at Daytona?

But that was (old) Daytona. The 600 races used to be drafting battles also. But it was not the same at other tracks.

 The change to Daytona allows a rider to get away.

QuoteIt would be difficult to pull just a frame off the line with it having a VIN. A frame with no VIN is no big deal, a frame with a VIN is.

Right.

And the rules state that the frame should have a VIN.  

In 1993, we watched the Supersport teardowns in Phoenix.  The GSXR's were liquid cooled.  Yosh did well, again, but all the Suzuki Sport support riders...well, their bikes were pretty slow.  The frames didn't look right as we watched.  You can only get so close, but it didn't look right.


The point I was making about the BMW race was that it was exciting.  Daytona or not, it was exciting.  If your point is that the old Daytona provided good racing, well, there have been some pretty processional races there.  

If you know the AMA rulebook you know that a fine was a valid penalty for the infraction. The problem is that the rulebook states that penalties are the discretion of AMA Pro Racing, and they seldom explain how the penalty was determined in these situations, which leaves everyone guessing. Was the penalty appropriate in this case? Who knows, and that's the problem.

Ok, how 'bout this? The AMA rules state that you MUST have your name on the back of your leathers.  ;D

I'm going to call the AMA whenever I see a rider w/o a name.  They can send me whatever fine they impose. ;) (j/k)

They were found legal...http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=22268

Legal, by the standard set forth by individuals by what?  

They had no VIN numbers.

Beyond that, no measurements were taken, right?

Penalties have changed over the years to fit whomever has an interest.

At one time, there were straight forward claim rules.  

Goofy Ti pipes, funny carbs...

HRC black boxes...Chromemoly frames...

I guess I can chime in as a sponsor, and someone who knows the sport somewhat as an insider....

Friends, I am not sure that the VIN issue, or the lack-of designation between rider and team (how do you fine a team when there is no specification/identification of a team?), or the apparent abuse and/or stretching of the rules makes a sponsor want to enter or exit this sport.

Business.  Plane and simple.  It's about business.  Why does a sponsor, especially one with a product of service that is not directly connected to the sport (as VoiceEclipse has nothing to do with racing)?  

Answer: Population and demographic impact.  Exposure.  Here's how we considered the decision to assist the SafetyFirst Team this year...  we spent a lot of time helping/working with the team to understand the circulation and demographic impact and size of who they could affect.  Does a sticker on a bike mean anything?  No, I don't believe so.  What good does a VoiceEclipse sticker do for us on the side of a bike?  Winning or finishing at the back, it really has little value to the sponsor.  

What the SF team is doing that is extremely valuable to us as a sponsor is the marketing of the name.  They have over 30 public appearances planned at major shopping malls, schools, etc., throughout the country.  They are setting up displays at public events, showing the cool machines, the riders there in leathers to impress the public, and of course, they are all trained on how to talk about VoiceEclipse.  The printed collateral is in their hands, and they give it to thousands of potential customers in a given weekend.

That's business.  This approach is something that can be "sold" by a team to a potential sponsor.  Demographic impact is what this is about.

Winning a race is icing on the cake, it's the bonus.  If it was about winning, there would not be major sponsor names on every car in a Nascar race.

What I believe is the problem with the exposure of this sport in America is with the lack of mainstream marketing of the AMA for events.  I do not see any promotion of an AMA event, I never see anything on TV, hear anything on radio, no public appearances for the major names to promote the sport, nothing.  

As a sponsor, my concern is with the lack of business understanding with the AMA, not with the fan demographic.  Nascar has an awesome following, and so can this sport.  The people will come, they will think it's cool to see, and they will be excited.  It's not that Americans don't like this sport, it's more that they just don't know much about it.

Why does the AMA fail in marketing?  Simple.  It's an Affinity Organization.  Not a major corporation.  Nascar is not a membership club, or an Affinity Organization.  It's a real business, with major marketing skill.  If the AMA was chartered with making the AMA Superbike Series a highly profitable business, and that was their only source of revenue, then things would change.  

Kind of like asking why the Chicago Cubs didn't spend major bucks on players and really try to win...  why?  because they could fill Wrigley and sell merchandise, whether they won or not.    The AMA makes it's revenue from hundreds of thousands of membership dues, and the racing revenue is not all that finances the events.

Superbike racing would be successful if it were owned and run by business people, answered to shareholders, and not a committee of volunteers with no financial stake in the success of the business.

I wonder how successful my company would be if the board were volunteer, and the executive staff wasn't incentivized by profit, scale, and earnings.

Just my more-than-two cents.

Russ

QuoteThey can hand pick each piston, rod, crank, etc from the parts floor to build their bikes allowing for a better balanced engine.

also, with their unlimited budgets, they can run their engine tolerances real loose for extra hp as this requires a rebuild after every race

$4000 Ohlins fork cartridges I'm sure add some.

Oh yea, and the guys are stupid fast! :D

Dude don't kid yourself.  You are not telling Dave anything new.   ::)  and you wonder why.  

AMA Pro Racing = Manufacturers.  Who makes up the board?

Sadly, nothing will change until this does.  

Separate the sanctioning body from the manufactures and promoters  

just clarification:

AMA Pro Racing IS A FOR PROFIT business. It is NOT a branch of AMA, the non profit org. They have made this quite clear on some issues which is their explaination on how certain things are run.

On the other hand, if AMA Pro Racing is a seperate entity why are riders, crews and everyone requiring a credential required to buy a AMA membership?

...clip taken from the AMA Pro Racing website:

"A for-profit subsidiary of the 265,000-member-plus American Motorcyclist Association (AMA), AMA Pro Racing was formed in 1995 to respond to the rising popularity and tremendous growth of motorcycle racing in America. The formation of a separate company with a separate Board of Directors and management staff allowed the AMA to continue its focus on government relations, pursuing, protecting and promoting the interests of motorcycle enthusiasts, membership growth and other issues. AMA Pro Racing concentrates exclusively on the business and complexities of professional motorcycle racing."

I am completely unconvinced that this organization is chartered with profit, financial success, and growth.  This is not a business, as is Nascar, it's a "subsidiary of the AMA".  This simply means they are to chartered with not creating a negative cash flow on the parent organization, and to be at a minimum; self sustaining.

As I said earlier, I don't think the AMA Pro Racing organization is run a business.

my view on the VIN issue:

AMA rule book states that all bike MUST pass tech prior to any official practice and all bike MUST be class legal during ANY on track sessions.

So regardless of whether or not the frames are indeed production frame, and legal or not, they should not have been allowed to be ridden on the track, during practice, qualifying, or the race.

Considering said bike should not have been on track at all for not having a VIN number (there for not legal for the class), then the race results should be nullified because they have tested (during practice and qualifying) and adjusted said illegal bikes before the race, and therefore we can reasonably assume gained advantage from it prior to the race.

If said machines were found illegal just prior to the race, the riders would have been required to start from the back of the grid (for qualifying on an illegal machine) using a provisional start, on their back up bike which would probably not set up and perform as well, and probably wouldn't have finished where the illegal bikes finished.

Whether or not the frames were in spec, they were illegal as long as they did not have the VIN on them. And race finishes should not have counted.

Example:
if a factory supersport rider were found running with a 600cc frame with a 1000cc motor inside, but however he crashed or blew up and end up finishing last but still in the points/purse, do you think AMA would let him keep the points and purse?

well no performance advantage were gained because he did not finish the race, but it was illegal nonetheless and the rider would be severely punished wouldn't he?

so the suzuki teams rode a illegal bike (whether or not it was performance enhancing) all weekend and nothing but a fine (which is so much less than the purse earned)?

anyone remember when Haga was found to be doping (arguably the drug actually made him weaker) but points taken away anyhow?

so why should anyone follow the rules?

QuoteI wonder how successful my company would be if the board were volunteer, and the executive staff wasn't incentivized by profit, scale, and earnings.

Probably about as successful as AMA racing.  ;)

Good points, Russ.  From what I've seen it looks to be run like a poorly managed charity or worse yet, a town council.

Your comments about the lack of mainstream marketing are right on.  Most of John Q. Public isn't at all familiar with the sport.  Tell someone you enjoy racing and they assume you ride a dirt bike.

The real eye opener in your post though is the importance of the public appearances along with the advertising for your company's services that cemented your decision to sign on.  We're often so focused on how we finish in the race that many are too timid to approach a sponsor, thinking we're not fast enough.

Good stuff to think about.

Quote...clip taken from the AMA Pro Racing website:

"A for-profit subsidiary of the 265,000-member-plus American Motorcyclist Association (AMA), AMA Pro Racing was formed in 1995 to respond to the rising popularity and tremendous growth of motorcycle racing in America. The formation of a separate company with a separate Board of Directors and management staff allowed the AMA to continue its focus on government relations, pursuing, protecting and promoting the interests of motorcycle enthusiasts, membership growth and other issues. AMA Pro Racing concentrates exclusively on the business and complexities of professional motorcycle racing."

I am completely unconvinced that this organization is chartered with profit, financial success, and growth.  This is not a business, as is Nascar, it's a "subsidiary of the AMA".  This simply means they are to chartered with not creating a negative cash flow on the parent organization, and to be at a minimum; self sustaining.

As I said earlier, I don't think the AMA Pro Racing organization is run a business.

I totally agree, but at times convinient, AMA Pro Racing is held seperate from the AMA. Thats why we have no say in who sits on the Pro Racing board and its officers are appointed and not elected.

It is funny how AMA racers' rights were constantly violated (as reported multiple times by several racing media) by a subsidiary of a org. whose goal is to promote and preserve motorcyclists' rights.

QuoteProbably about as successful as AMA racing.  ;)

Good points, Russ.  From what I've seen it looks to be run like a poorly managed charity or worse yet, a town council.

Your comments about the lack of mainstream marketing are right on.  Most of John Q. Public isn't at all familiar with the sport.  Tell someone you enjoy racing and they assume you ride a dirt bike.

The real eye opener in your post though is the importance of the public appearances along with the advertising for your company's services that cemented your decision to sign on.  We're often so focused on how we finish in the race that many are too timid to approach a sponsor, thinking we're not fast enough.

Good stuff to think about.

but unlike a town concil the Pro Racing staff are not elected and have no raport to the AMA members.

I have always know pro racing is about marketing, but unfortunately 99% of all racers don't  :(

  The enforcement of said rules is so random, it is more based on politics than equity. That said, I do not see how this makes AMA less attractive than NASCAR? NASCAR has the same problem with random enforcement, but they're even more political about it as there's more $$ involved. I think the solution is in GoldWings. That's right, put each and every one of em on identical showroom GoldWings. :o    

Right on Russ! That's what I was trying to point out about the "Team" concept.

As an "insider" I feel there are problems rampant throughout the entire sport of roadracing. Marketing is one, and this rules issue, along with others, is another.

From a racer stand point the rules issues are very important. Every racer want to feel as if the race is fair. Example: In the F1 opening round this season, Ferrari(F1 elite) protested the Minardi team (F1 bottom feeder) for wanting to run their cars in last year's aerodynamic trim for that race. Everyone said that Ferrari was being mean, because Minardi had no chance of beating Ferrari or many of the other top contenders. F1 ruled in favor of Ferrari, but not because of their clout in the industry. It had to do with the fact that the Minardi team did have the required bodywork on hand, and additionally had tested previously and found it to be safe. This was fair. It benefited the entire race weekend. Even the initial critics thought so.

This is the pinacle of racing, the highest dollar marketing tool ever. You do not damage your tools by bending the rules. Personally I do feel the FIM has bent the rules, but they at least try to make it look fair by going after the big guns on important issues.

As a marketing tool, the AMA  has HUGE potential, but I agree with Russ: there needs to be some business saavy folks responsible for AMA Pro Roadracing. They will ask the questions: what is good for the sport? The Team concept is good for the sport. Even F-USA realizes this. You can market a team. You can use the team to sell product, yours and your sponsors. Teams also have more political pull within the system. Currently, that falls to the manufacturers.

IMHO, I don't think anything is going to change very soon, but if big name players like Jordan eventually have a say, it might. One other thing to consider: my NASCAR friends keep telling me "you want your sport to remain small, look what's happened to NASCAR". There are problems at every level, they just tend to change.

This VIN issue could be a major or minor problem. We'll probably never know the whole story anyhow. All I know it that it doesn't help the perception of fair racing.

QuoteThe enforcement of said rules is so random, it is more based on politics than equity. That said, I do not see how this makes AMA less attractive than NASCAR? NASCAR has the same problem with random enforcement, but they're even more political about it as there's more $$ involved. I think the solution is in GoldWings. That's right, put each and every one of em on identical showroom GoldWings. :o    

They'd find a way to modify the aerodynamics of the gold wing, and you know that parts would disappear and be replaced with aftermarket. "But it broke, we had to!"

Besides...tech would be a b1tch. :o ;) ;D

At what point should something be "legal"...

"that they were pre-production frames. Obviously, they weren't able to get regular production bikes as early as they would like to get started working on the bikes. I think even the Corona (Suzuki) team didn't have '05 bikes to work with at Daytona"

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=22268

Would competitiveness be better if those who were racing could actually get machinery?  This is a manufacturer generated problem.  

Russ, I know where you're coming from.  The SF program I know really, really well.  I sat down and told Kevo how to do it several years ago, simple as that.  My schools are kind of multitask oriented.  He has a program, not just a racing team.  That's something a little bigger and better, as you recognize.  

In a different vein, anybody who ever asks about sponsors and how to get them needs to go back and read the post Russ made.

It's not about winning races or running a sticker/patch.  It's about bringing revenue back to your sponsor.  Return on investment.  

If it weren't for a 'code of business conduct' contract I have signed prohibiting it, I'd be talking to Russ right now as I believe I can provide him an exposure which would drive profit back to him.

If anybody needs suggestions / help in this arena, talk to me offline.  I'm probably the best sponsored twice-a-year-podium-finish kinda guy you'll ever meet.  Networking & Marketing is what it's all about...  

QuoteIn a different vein, anybody who ever asks about sponsors and how to get them needs to go back and read the post Russ made.

It's not about winning races or running a sticker/patch.  It's about bringing revenue back to your sponsor.  Return on investment.  

If it weren't for a 'code of business conduct' contract I have signed prohibiting it, I'd be talking to Russ right now as I believe I can provide him an exposure which would drive profit back to him.

If anybody needs suggestions / help in this arena, talk to me offline.  I'm probably the best sponsored twice-a-year-podium-finish kinda guy you'll ever meet.  Networking & Marketing is what it's all about...  

Amen to that Jeff.

QuoteAt what point should something be "legal"...

If it falls within the rules, it is legal. If it not defined within the rules, get a definition. Anything else should be considered illegal.

Just re-read that, I'd be a b1tch in tech, huh? ;D

OK, great discussion but you may as well talk to the pit wall.

People. this discussion and a million like it go on every day somewhere, have for more years than you know and will forever.

Let me say this one more time.....motorcycle road racing will never be main stream in this country. NEVER! Get over it.

Motorcycle road racing is like a cult, you may think it's the greatest activity on earth but it will never be NAPSCAR.

Take some time to look at motorcycle demographics. Look at all the different areas of motorcycle activities. Road racing, flat track, hill climb, super motard, motocross, supercross, enduros, trials, tourers, cruisers, drag racing, stunters. Then break that all down into numbers. What you will find is roadracing is not only a very small market in the big picture but it's even a small market in the motorcycle world.

Trust me there are a hell of a lot more motocrossers in this country than roadracers and they have a hard time getting any mainstream notice.

I hate to be the bummer in this discussion but you have to look at this with a realistic eye. You can dream about roadracing becoming a big mainstream sport all you want but it will never happen. Now, on with reality. That's for us people that can't handle drugs. ;D ;D

QuoteOK, great discussion but you may as well talk to the pit wall.

Sometime talking to Paul is like talking to the pit wall.....









.... on second thought, sometimes I do have better conversations with the pit wall.

 ;D

Hey Gordie, go ahead and tell us not to discuss tires & synthetic vs dino oil while you're at it...   ;D ;D ;D

Let the crowds complain.  It isn't hurting anything.

QuoteIf it falls within the rules, it is legal. If it not defined within the rules, get a definition. Anything else should be considered illegal.

Just re-read that, I'd be a b1tch in tech, huh? ;D

AMA leagality is a bit different than CCS.  CCS is pretty open ended.  

QuoteOK, great discussion but you may as well talk to the pit wall.

Oh, Lord, I know the pit wall really well.


Make road racing main stream?  I don't think it's necessary.

There are other "sports" that have some appeal.


Small signage.  

How about bicycle racing?  


I think the origin of my post is being lost.

The exclusivity of rules in their design and application to individuals, and really some teams, is a hindrance as a whole.

In NASCAR, only certain tires are allowed.  Tire warmers are not allowed.  New shock technology is available, but only certain ways of applying that technology is allowed.  

Entertainment, in general, is an art form.  NASCAR has the art done up pretty well.

AMA Pro Racing...well, yeah, it is "separate"...might really have something to do with the AMA/CCC/Edmonson split for ownership or something...talk to the lawyers.

Don, I think you refered to it all as a charity...yeah, that's probably pretty good.

Discussion is great but it's not doing any good here. You need to express these thoughts and ideas where it counts. If you're an AMA member then get on the phone, emil, or sit down and write them a letter and tell them. but then your'e not Honda or one of the other manufacturers so good luck getting them to listen.

Yeah this thread has kind of split into two seperate issues. One: rules, the other: road racing popularity in this country. Actually three if you look at the AMA issues which sits in the middle of both of the other issues.

Let's just all agree the AMA needs work. ;D

I agree with Gordy.

It seems the AMA is at an impasse.  It's either going to grow or die as a sport (when I say sport, I mean one with rules and regulations--unscripted) or the way of the WWF--now known as the WWE.  

I do ask, why is there no chance for significant growth of the AMA in the US?  What is the difference in Europe?  Do they ride more motorcycles there than here?  I think they do, but I don't know for a fact.  What is the difference in our cultures?  

There's a market.  It needs to be taken seriously and perhaps, that market's needs aren't being taken care of like they could be.

I don't know what Nascar does better or not because I don't watch nor will I.  Stumpy had on Speed last night and some Nascar show was on.  All I have to say is, anytime you have time to sit and argue with your crew chief over a radio about why the switches are labeled the way they are while "racing" your car around a track, I don't see much use for the "competition".  

Maybe we are starting from the wrong angle to begin with.  The only resemblance to Nascar in road racing is they are both motorsports.  Perhaps we need a better model in which to emulate.  

Thank you for listening, wall.  Your'e a pal.

Heather

QuoteSmall signage.  

How about bicycle racing?  

I could never quite figure out how the USPS saw the ROI on sponsoring a bicycle team in France.

If you want AMA Superbike to be huge in the U.S.,  Ford, Chevy, and Dodge need to make competitive bikes.

I've been to my hometown, guard drills, and family reunions where everyone knows what they are talking about when they say "When is the race on?" (I'm always a smart a$$ and say "The Superbike race?")

But they all seem to pick their favorites based on what make of vehicle they themselves own. What is the percentage of people who own Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, or Hondas - compared to Ford, GM, and Chrysler?

It is the same reason people in Wisconsin like the Packers and people in Chicago like the Bears. They feel a connection to the teams or riders.

.....  and anyone who likes the Packers is a monkey.

Packers? I've never gotten into baseball..

Quote.....  and anyone who likes the Packers is a monkey.

So.....

What are you trying to say Russ?  (as my fingers are strumming the desk)   >:(

Dawn  

QuotePackers? I've never gotten into baseball..

Arrrrgggggghhhhh!!!!!!

sorry, trying to lighten it up.  

Packer fans aren't really that monkey-like.

Quotesorry, trying to lighten it up.  

Packer fans aren't really that monkey-like.

You better watch it.......






... or I'll get the wives together and then you'll really be in trouble!  You know how much we like to watch tight ends.

 ;D

QuotePackers? I've never gotten into baseball..

It's not baseball. I DO feel bad that they aren't playing this year due to no settlement in the union/owners talks. They'll have to get the cup next year.

QuoteIt's not baseball. I DO feel bad that they aren't playing this year due to no settlement in the union/owners talks. They'll have to get the cup next year.

OK, now I know this has to be a joke....

It's the hockey season that wasn't played due to a disagreement between the owners and the players union, NOT baseball.  That's OK though, I prefer college hockey over the pro's any day.

Too bad no one in my house likes to watch it besides me.

 :)

:P

Making fun of Packer Fans isn't going to make your lame teams stadium fill to capacity every game like Lambeau.

That's because there is nothing else to do in Green Bay.

Actually, we should settle this on the track.

Bears fans vs. Packer fans

Wear your favorite teams jersey in a winner take all shoot out.

Pick a race(s) at RA, everyone chip in $5.00 a man and whoevers team wins has bragging rights for the season and give the money to the Wegman fund.

  I guess I have to ask this question; What motorcycle roadracing organization in North America is bigger than AMA?












GoldWings, I tell ya, GoldWings; Some friends visiting a Wing Ding got pretty barley therapied up, bought some 40 of those glow in the dark necklaces, pasted them all over their bodies and ran around after dark hollering, "I'm a GoldWing, I'm a GoldWing", going from camp area to camp area until evicted. Wing Dingers do not appreciate good beer. ;D  

QuoteActually, we should settle this on the track.

Bears fans vs. Packer fans

Wear your favorite teams jersey in a winner take all shoot out.

Pick a race(s) at RA, everyone chip in $5.00 a man and whoevers team wins has bragging rights for the season and give the money to the Wegman fund.

I'm in!!!  This is a great idea.  

Formula 40, for all the old farts like me?

QuoteI'm in!!!  This is a great idea.  

Formula 40, for all the old farts like me?

No....

Paul's going to want a piece of this action and he is only 38.  How about a Friday practice session when all classes of bikes can play?  Have the same # of riders representing the Packers and the same for the Bears.  The who ever has the greater number finishing closer to #1 wins.

 :)

Here we go, we should probably start a new thread for this one.

If we want to settle this Friday I say take the combined total from GTU and the GTO, or select three races from the overall weekend.

Every racer chip in $5.00 and receive a sticker, (Stumpy are you listening) Something simple "Bears Fan or Packers Fan"

Run the sticker on your bike, or on the back of your helmet to make it more competitive

Use the CCS scoring for the points total, this way every racer will have some points.

End of the weekend, or Saturday tally the points and present the award to the winners. Any old trophies out there?

Present the proceeds to the Wegman Fund.

We'll need a couple of volunteers to hand out stickers, take money and keep track of the results.

Suggestions?

I have glanced over this thread and my reply would be that if if you put evryone on stock bikes the factory riders would still dominate. Unfortunately as in any other sport only a few talented individuals will ever make it to the top.
I have said this over and over , be happy with what level your at and have fun.
They measured the frames and they were legal . actually the AMA has really been good the last couple of years and only penalized small dollar amount fines.
Just think if it was you that had no vin # a $1000 fine is way better than a $10,000 fine. It's not like they can have a sliding scale on the ability to pay.
It is much better to let a rider with a non performance enhancing violation race than to send him home.
Kevin sent the rear disc's from all the bikes to have them cnc machined , the guy reshaped them which is illegal , the AMA after i explained the spares hadnt arrived said no problem go ahead and run the bad ones. They further stated that it is possible we could be fined after the race.
The AMA and how they run things has always been a hot topic , as Gordy said you need to give any ideas to the right people.
I also think that unless you are going to commit to a full season at the AMA level the powers that be have no incentive to listen to your ideas as you are not what they call a stakeholder in the series.

QuoteKevin sent the rear disc's from all the bikes to have them cnc machined , the guy reshaped them which is illegal , the AMA after i explained the spares hadnt arrived said no problem go ahead and run the bad ones. They further stated that it is possible we could be fined after the race.

I love the rule on how you can drill but not mill.  What if I drill while drinking a lot of coffee and having a seizure?  It might oblong a lot of holes. :D

QuoteHere we go, we should probably start a new thread for this one.

If we want to settle this Friday I say take the combined total from GTU and the GTO, or select three races from the overall weekend.

Every racer chip in $5.00 and receive a sticker, (Stumpy are you listening) Something simple "Bears Fan or Packers Fan"

Run the sticker on your bike, or on the back of your helmet to make it more competitive

Use the CCS scoring for the points total, this way every racer will have some points.

End of the weekend, or Saturday tally the points and present the award to the winners. Any old trophies out there?

Present the proceeds to the Wegman Fund.

We'll need a couple of volunteers to hand out stickers, take money and keep track of the results.

Suggestions?

Which team am I on? I don't like that Packers or the Bears............

QuoteI have glanced over this thread and my reply would be that if if you put evryone on stock bikes the factory riders would still dominate. Unfortunately as in any other sport only a few talented individuals will ever make it to the top.

I totally agree there, Jim.

There are some that seem to think if they had some other bike, that they would do so much better.  

Even then, new skills need to be built at each level of competition.

Motorsports, in general, is a big thing, marketing wise.   There are certainly opportunities out there.  

What makes something attractive?  Would sponsorship attract spectators?  Would spectators attact sponsors?

So, what can be done to attract people to see these events?

A good point was made.  

Some people are attracted to local things.  Yeah, you've got some people in Wisconsin that like the Packers.  Not everyone, but some.

So, a rider in a particular area has a certain amount of people that would like to see their "local" hero.  Now the trick can be that the structure for rules can leave an amount of impropiety that leaves the ability of most riders to not to be able to attain any fair amount of parts.

I've always struggled with the opportunity that factory teams have to have the new bike when it's not available to others.  

If I ran the show, hey, if the bike isn't available to everyone,  the bike shouldn't be raced.  We do have production based rules.

Whether everyone makes it to the "top" is a goal for riders.  For teams and the organization, they should strive to offer an opportunity for entertainment.  For someteams, their job will be pulling the big sponsorships offering the best riders the most money for their talents.  For some teams, that will be for offering up and coming and other veteran riders that aren't the fastest an avenue to be a "part of the show".  

We've already visited the idea that the riders that currently ride for the factory teams are going to be the top riders.  So, why it is necessary for those teams to have an even more distinct advantage?  We do recognize that the rider is an extremely[/b] huge reason why they go fast.

As it is, it sucks to have lapped traffic.  

Would it be more attractive to a few more people if there was a little more competition to be seen?  I say yes.  Would Mladin still win?  Probably.

OK, so how about this: We penalize/handicap the fast riders to make the races a bit more even! How does 5 pounds of extra weight for every point you scored at the last round sound? You would have to carry it on your back though! This way, for the Barber round, Tommy Hayden would carry an extra 190 pounds, Hacking would have to carry 160 and DiSalvo would carry 145 lbs!

Of course, the amount of weight could be changed, according to how the AMA feels, if a rider keeps on winning!

This way everyone could get an AMA win!!!

Let's get that rule implimented in Lightweight Superbike.  I can just see Ed Key with three anvils strapped to his back, dragging a 200 lbs log chained to his swingarm!
(Knowing Ed, the log would be made from carbon fiber and anvils would be hollowed out titanium....)

QuoteLet's get that rule implimented in Lightweight Superbike.  I can just see Ed Key with three anvils strapped to his back, dragging a 200 lbs log chained to his swingarm!
(Knowing Ed, the log would be made from carbon fiber and anvils would be hollowed out titanium....)

And he would still pass this slow ass novice by the 4th lap!!! ;D

QuoteLet's get that rule implimented in Lightweight Superbike.  I can just see Ed Key with three anvils strapped to his back, dragging a 200 lbs log chained to his swingarm!
(Knowing Ed, the log would be made from carbon fiber and anvils would be hollowed out titanium....)

They would also be engineered for maximun drag coefficient.

Besides, I've personally figured out Ed's "Key" to success. You see, Ed will make every part on his bike light, then optimize everything else available allowed by the rules. One thing Ed will not do is get rid of that back hair. He's Golith, you see. Shave the back and Ed gets instantly slow. Might even take an entire season to grow back.  :o ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

(Told y'all Ed has secrets...)

Regardless of how much time and money that Mr Key puts into weight savings, he knows how to set up a motorcycle.  

Most of those that race around him regionally focus on the weight and power aspect when his strength is in his ability and knowledge of set up and a deep desire to do well.  

Back to the original issue...

NASCAR Nextel Cup racing was on regular TV again.  There was a name on the leader position that I didn't know...not that I'm an expert in NASCAR.  But it least made it different.

Anyway, there should be a reasaonble playing field.  

Bikes for a small number of teams before any production units are available should not be allowed.

Testing opportunities should be limited.  Practice at Sears Point is going on now for some riders (teams don't exist?)

Parts should be limited to available pieces.  The ridiculousness of "top" teams claiming each others unique parts is terrible.

QuoteRegardless of how much time and money that Mr Key puts into weight savings, he knows how to set up a motorcycle.  

Most of those that race around him regionally focus on the weight and power aspect when his strength is in his ability and knowledge of set up and a deep desire to do well.  

That is ooohhh so true, but we like to give him ________ about being such a light weight.  ;D  Shave that body hair and I bet that he could drop another pound.    :o

 You must admit though, same bike and ability, Ed would still have an advantage because of his size over someone like Paul, Chris, or Don Cook.

Dawn   ;)

If that's the case...no one should race against him.

But on any Sunday, there are variables.

There are small guys in superbike, and they get beat by Mat Mladin.  He's taller than me.  So, is Yates.

Ed's biggest advantages are in his hands and in his head.  You're just reinforcing the fact that everyone is lookng at the machine as the only reason for his winning.

QuoteEd's biggest advantages are in his hands and in his head.  You're just reinforcing the fact that everyone is lookng at the machine as the only reason for his winning.

Gosh Dave....

Take a deep breath.....

We're not saying that it is the ONLY reason he wins.  I'm just saying that his size is an advantage.

Sheesh!

Dawn

All I have to say about NASCAR is that it it so RIGGED, did anyone see the finish to yesterday's race....RIGGED......

I didn't see the NAPSCAR race but let me guess.....someone was running away with the race and NAPSCAR threw a caution flag about four laps to go for a hot dog wrapper on the track. That bunched everyone up and someone else drafted past at the line for the win.

I watched some Snow-Cross racing again yesterday.  Crowds seemed around the same size as a club race, but TV coverage... Weird...  

The competition of it was awesome.  I really enjoyed watching it.

QuoteI watched some Snow-Cross racing again yesterday.  Crowds seemed around the same size as a club race, but TV coverage... Weird...  

The competition of it was awesome.  I really enjoyed watching it.

If you were involved, you might notice that there are some really complex rules in it.

I worked with some teams and coming up with fuels to meet the specifications, and it isn't easy.  There are absolutes.

Back to Ed...

 

QuoteGosh Dave....

Take a deep breath.....

We're not saying that it is the ONLY reason he wins.  I'm just saying that his size is an advantage.

His size is an advantage in as much as Mladin's size is a disadvantage.

Doesn't change the outcome.  No one at the regional level, wants to sit down and actually beat Ed.  

But Ed doesn't apply to AMA road racing as he doesn't do that anymore.  I don't think his body will let him race for that kind of duration.  Anyway, he's got an excellent program going as he has.

The origin of my concern is that there is a playing field of excesses that make AMA Pro Road Racing generally boring to watch.  Talk about rigged?

Again, who would have picked anyone other than Mladin to win the Superbike race at Daytona?  One may want someone else to win, but the playing field is just designed to be boring.  

Ok, what happened at the NASCAR race?  If they were bunched up at the end, at least there was something that happened...

QuoteI didn't see the NAPSCAR race but let me guess.....someone was running away with the race and NAPSCAR threw a caution flag about four laps to go for a hot dog wrapper on the track. That bunched everyone up and someone else drafted past at the line for the win.

I don't think they make any bones about it.  They call it a competition yellow and they throw it for the sole purpose of bunching everyone up.  That's not racing.  I don't let it bother me anymore.

I just tune it all out and relegate myself to the fact that the overwhelming majority of the people in the US could give two cents about motorcycle racing.  Heck most of my dealers aren't even aware.   Until that happens you can forget about the sport growing.  

But on the off hand you ever convince a sports bar to tune a couple of TV's to a motorcycle race the place will generally get into it - confirmed from the oohs, awes and holy sheets you will hear.  

QuoteDoesn't change the outcome.  No one at the regional level, wants to sit down and actually beat Ed.  

Bullshit....

My pocket book says otherwise.....

QuoteDoesn't change the outcome.  No one at the regional level, wants to sit down and actually beat Ed.

Brian Lacy may take issue with that statement.   ;)

QuoteBut on the off hand you ever convince a sports bar to tune a couple of TV's to a motorcycle race the place will generally get into it - confirmed from the oohs, awes and holy sheets you will hear.  

Yeah, we were at a Champs one time when Speed was still SpeedVision, we asked them to change the channel to watch 2wheelTuesday, and they said they couldn't. We were watching 12 screens of the golf channel and there were all of 8 patrons in the place. Nice. Maybe if we went racing with a ball...

oh yeah, it does take balls to go racing.  ::) ;) :P

Team Testicle? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

QuoteTeam Testicle? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

LOL...I am so surprised that hasn't been used! ;D

QuoteLOL...I am so surprised that hasn't been used! ;D

Ball Sac Racing is pretty close.  Especially when they refer to each other as "the nuts in the sac."   :o

QuoteBrian Lacy may take issue with that statement.   ;)

And he should...

And you recognized it.

Brian does a pretty darn good job.  

QuoteEd's biggest advantages are in his hands and in his head.  You're just reinforcing the fact that everyone is lookng at the machine as the only reason for his winning.

OK, Dave.
Let's do the math.  Ed weighs 120 lbs.  I weigh 250 lbs.
Ed's SV weighs 300 lbs.  Mine weighs 375 lbs.
Ed has 90-100 Hp.  I have 71 Hp.
Ed's combined weight advantage less than me is 205 Lbs, and he has a 20-30 Hp advantage.

Now anyone who's seen Ed race knows that he is one of the best riders ever to compete.  We also know that his knowledge of bike setup is superb.  Lately, I've had the chance to find out just how deep his knowledge goes.  The man is a genius.

But you're saying that his small size and magnificent motorcycle should not be considered.  Big guys have just as good a chance, right?  Maladen is tall, and he can beat Duhamel.  So I guess you're telling me that Ed's 205 lb. weight savings over me is not an advantage.  Neither is the 30 Hp that he has over me.  If I can just get my bike set up well and grow some balls as a rider, I could beat Ed like a red-headed stepchild, right?  Is that what you're saying, Dave?  That's what you told Dawn.

Sorry to point this out, Dave, but you're WRONG!
Add 410 pounds to Ed's race weight and subtract 60 Hp from his motor.  Now I'd have the advantage over Ed that he has over me.  If you send Ed to the grid on a 710 lb, 40 Hp motorcycle, I'm pretty sure I could beat him, reguardless of his skill or suspension tuning ability.  Hell, I could beat you too.  Don't believe me?  Show up to Blackhawk on a Road King with one plug wire removed.  Spend all the time you want setting up the suspension.  If you can turn better lap times than me, I'll buy the beer.

I watched Jesse and Ed race at MAM.  It was the best CCS race I've ever seen, matching the final Edwards-Bayless WSB duel.  On the last trip down the straight, Ed OUT-MOTORED Jesse to the line like his engine had died.  It was obcene.  Jesse can ride, he weighs what Ed does, and you were setting up his suspension.
You're full of $hit, Dave.  I love ya, but I've gotta call you on this one.  I think you owe Dawn an apology.

 Gold Wings baby, all 897 glorious pounds of GL2400 screamin down the front. M4 pipes would be the only allowable modification. Ed gets first pick o' the litter cuz he da man. ::)

I recall Ed beating Mark Junge at Road America a couple years ago, both on SVs. Mark's was WERA superstock legal. After thhe race, Ed commented that Mark is a great rider, he out rode Ed in the corners (Ed prefers to use a point and shoot riding style, rather than high corner speed), but he out rode Mark on the straights. Spoke to Mark about it, he had a great time, said it helped make him a better rider having to ride so hard to make up for what he lost on every straight.

Less weight is an advantage everywhere. Easier to turn, gains speed more quickly (higher acceleration), loses speed more quickly (higher acceleration).

I recall Yamaha (US superbike team - Jamie James riding) testing carbon fiber wheels versus magnesium wheels. On average James was 1.5s per lap faster with the CF wheels. I would call that a huge advantage.

Weight is only part of the equation, but it can be a very big part.

QuoteYou're full of $hit, Dave.  I love ya, but I've gotta call you on this one.  I think you owe Dawn an apology.

Ride the bike...

You had a GSXR750 which probably weighs 390 and then has 120HP...

How close were your times to Ed's on his Supersport bike?  We could even it up and put you both at Road America...

You've still got to ride and set up the bike.

This isn't AMA racing at the club level.  You've got to execute.  Only time it's a different game is when there's some good money available.  Those who have been pounding the pavement hard working on set up will go faster than most of the local, every weekend CCS racers.

Again if the lightest bike and the bike with the most HP was always going to win...

Rossi wouldn't have won the world championship on a Yamaha, would he?

Rossi still has to ride the bike, and he had the wisdom to take his set up with him...his whole crew...

He wasn't able to take any HP.

Forget it Dave....

Like I said in an earlier post....  

QuoteYou must admit though, same bike and ability, Ed would still have an advantage because of his size over someone like Paul, Chris, or Don Cook.

You can pound your point all you want that we just need to ride the bike harder.  But it still takes a lot more to move Paul's 100+ pounds that he has over Key and Lacey.  This means more strain on suspension, motor and tires....

Paul races to his ability and gives it his all without balling it up every race.  You stating that he just hasn't stepped up to the plate to beat Ed is a bunch of crap.  

Sheesh Dave, open your mind to other schools of thought once in a while.  

Ohh.... EXCUSE ME!  I don't know what I'm talking about.   ::)  ::)  ::)

 >:(

QuoteRide the bike...

You had a GSXR750 which probably weighs 390 and then has 120HP...

120 lb. Ed on a 300 lb superbike with 100 Hp.
250 lb me on a 390 lb bike with 120 Hp.
420 lb devided by 100 Hp = 4.2 lb per Hp.
640 lb devided by 120 Hp = 5.33 lb per Hp.
Ed ran a 1:13.  I ran some 1:15 times.
I'm thinking that with better setup and a weight reduction to 4.2 lb per Hp, I could go faster.  Could I beat Ed?  Hmmmmm....  I'd really like to think so, but I know better.  If at our best, our lap times were dead even, his 30 years of racecraft would leave me behind, cursing him with each new trick he pulled.  I would still have a lot to learn to give Ed a serious race.
But that's not the point.  You're trying to say that Ed's bike and weight advantage shouldn't matter.  They do.  Physics dictate that the lighter package will accelerate, slow, and turn faster than the heavier package.  You're wrong.  And saying that no one has decided to beat Ed is wrong too.  Lacey was mentioned.  He can beat Ed on the right day with lesser equipment.  Why?  Lacey is better at certain tracks than Ed is, and Ed wisely doesn't push as hard when he's not comfortable.  He's usually so far ahead in points that it doesn't matter, so why risk it?  
How about me or Buxton?  We spend what we have.  We get more any way we can.  We wrench and ride and study.  We sacrifice.  But we both weigh over 200 lbs.  If, and I do mean if, we could find a way to match Ed's power to weight advantage, don't you think we'd ride with every fiber of our beings to try and beat him?  If we could get close enough to watch, don't you think we'd hang on and learn all we could like Jesse, Mike Rebie, and Jeff Wick did?  Or are you trying to say that we just don't have the heart?
Give me a break, Dave.  You still owe Dawn an apology.

QuoteForget it Dave....

Like I said in an earlier post....  


You can pound your point all you want that we just need to ride the bike harder.  But it still takes a lot more to move Paul's 100+ pounds that he has over Key and Lacey.  This means more strain on suspension, motor and tires....

Paul races to his ability and gives it his all without balling it up every race.  You stating that he just hasn't stepped up to the plate to beat Ed is a bunch of crap.  

Sheesh Dave, open your mind to other schools of thought once in a while.  

Ohh.... EXCUSE ME!  I don't know what I'm talking about.   ::)  ::)  ::)

 >:(

Don't make me call for this thread getting locked.  LOL  ;);D :)

QuoteDon't make me call for this thread getting locked.  LOL  ;);D :)

LOL!!!!

Sorry Garth...

I get a little protective over family.

 ;)

Quote420 lb devided by 100 Hp = 4.2 lb per Hp.
640 lb devided by 120 Hp = 5.33 lb per Hp.
Ed ran a 1:13.  I ran some 1:15 times.
I'm thinking that with better setup and a weight reduction to 4.2 lb per Hp, I could go faster.  Could I beat Ed?  Hmmmmm....  I'd really like to think so, but I know better.

Ok, let's cut to the chase...

Ed's bike is really set up.

You're not there.  

Let's get ride of the rider and see what the difference is...

Denning weighs about as much as I do, around 170?  Rides well.

He set the lap record at BFR in 2003 on his R1.  Let's say that his R1 weighs 370 and makes 140HP...that's 3.86.  

He went about .75 seconds slower on his R6 at 370 and 110HP....that's 4.9.

Similar gaps...  

I'm not sure how this all be came a club thing...

But spending money on a race bike doesn't necessarily give better lap times.  

And still the rider has to ride.  There are many "levels" of riding.  Where is one at?  Those are answers that one can claim rightfully or incorrectly.


When Jesse Janisch became expert in 2003, he was racing his SV.  I watch a race of his, and he came off the track and I met him there.  Looked at his lap timer.  He told me that he couldn't go anyfaster on that bike, etc., etc.

My response what that he was full of cr@p, and I told him so.  He could go faster.  He did in the next race.



So, you want me to sugar coat this or what?

I raced a bike for a few guys that built some vintage stuff.  Ain't like the new bikes.  They want to buy these new chassis and all...great, but until you've exhausted what you can do with what you've got...I don't see the point.

I've seen riders that have spent money on upgrades to equipment and go slower, no recognizing the ramifications of what they did, or what the feedback they received from the former set up.

I am always an advocate of the rider.  Everyone has the right to do what they may.  Experience is often something that costs money to learn.  

Every chassis and motor part receives wear and tear from use.  It's the tuner/owner/rider's responsibility to own up to making it work.

A few years ago, some of the factroy 600 supersport riders were racing in 750 supersport.  The AMA came down on them hard on weight.  The weight limit in 750 was higher than in 600.  The factory 600's had to add weight to their chassis to race in 750.  They could make the chassis better with that weight.  Faster?  Someone will have to go find the record books.  I think they did.

Racing isn't EOE.  I'm sorry.  Dale Quarterley was 6'3" and was 200 pounds.  When we needed to pull a motor out of his ZX7R, he'd straddle the frame and hold the motor while we put in the motor mount bolts.

I stood on the podium with him at Charlotte Motor Speeway for the AMA Superbike race.  He won an AMA Superbike race.  To Dale, size was an advantage.  Try to get past Dale in turn one.  Over course of a race, his size made is easier to control the bike because he had more strength.

I'm the nitpicker...

I started working with guys in 1989 to help them out.  I don't need to tell anyone how to counter steer.  But if I think that a rider can ride harder or if their set up is lacking...well, what do I say?  

Yes, absolutely, you're going as fast as possible...there is no way that YOU can go faster other than doing XYZ to a bike?  Usually, it goes...you're loosing time here because of ABC, and you're getting this tire wear.  What spring?  Thought about a heavier spring to support traction of this new tire?  Seems like you're not getting on the throttle here.  Why?  

Back to the originally scheduled question...

VIN numbers...

A few years ago, law enforcement agents arrived at a CMRA event at Hallett, Oklahoma.  They check VIN numbers against a data base.  They found some stolen bikes.  

What would happen to Yosh?

QuoteGive me a break, Dave.  You still owe Dawn an apology.

Why?  Dave's just stating his opinion, and this IS a motorcycle racing discussion forum.  Why should Dave have to apologize for expressing his opinion?

Hey, thanks...

We all have the right to say whatever, per se...

We don't have the right to be heard...

And I've stated a whole lot of opinions over the years that no one listened to...

This is nothing different.

Part of my schooling with riders can be to tell someone something that is uncomfortable.

I didn't apply any of this to anyone until others attached it to themselves.

Knowledge brings disappointment sometimes rather than joy.

 "Wouldn't a piece of rhubarb pie be nice right about now?"  -Garrison Keillor

Quote"Wouldn't a piece of rhubarb pie be nice right about now?"  -Garrison Keillor

 ;D ;D ;D

crickets...

QuoteAnd I've stated a whole lot of opinions over the years that no one listened to...

This is nothing different.

However it's not a two way street.  You offer opinions, but you don't listen or perhaps consider what others say.  I've seen it time and time again on the board. Don't get me wrong, you have a wealth of knowledge we appreciate it when you share, but if anyone challenges you, you get defensive.  

All I said is that weight makes a difference....  Then you tell me I'm wrong.  If weight doesn't make a difference, why does all the race teams from MotoGP through the club level look at ways to reduce the weight of their bikes and riders?  Heck, even Ed Key has thousands and thousands of hours in his bike on this very subject.

There are those who are wonderful mentors....  Ed is one, he gives and provides feedback but he also takes what others have to say, processes it, any may even try it himself.  This is a two way conversation and all benefit from it.

Just don't ever tell me that Paul doesn't try because....

Nevermind....

I'm done.

QuoteJust don't ever tell me that Paul doesn't try because....

Show me where I said that he doesn't try....

Just quote it...

QuoteHowever it's not a two way street.  You offer opinions, but you don't listen or perhaps consider what others say.  I've seen it time and time again on the board. Don't get me wrong, you have a wealth of knowledge we appreciate it when you share, but if anyone challenges you, you get defensive.

Really?  Never noticed it.  ;D

However...

QuoteUnfortunately as in any other sport only a few talented individuals will ever make it to the top.  

And that applies to a lot of things.

I could go on and on about psychology and why somethings work for some people and some things don't.  If making things light get's your mind futher into the task at hand, then it makes you faster.  Recognize those things.  Mind games are powerful...manufactured by hype, personal, etc.

QuoteYou offer opinions, but you don't listen or perhaps consider what others say.  I've seen it time and time again on the board. Don't get me wrong, you have a wealth of knowledge we appreciate it when you share, but if anyone challenges you, you get defensive

Ah, well...

The first thing that is assumed is that I haven't considered what others say.

Would we like to sit and talk about bikes that I drilled and lightened, if we want to use a current example?  

There are times when I share what I've done.  Theory is one thing, but having actually gone out and experienced on thing because I did it is very different.  

Being that as it is, it's an actual experience.  After that, if I share, someone can listen or not.  

Challenge?

Goes two ways?  

We can either just offer meaningless comments to each other, or discuss...

Is knowledge gained from statements or discourse?

I apologize for offending those that have been offended.  I'll temper my comments to those who I feel that might not understand my thought process.  

Good luck.

QuoteShow me where I said that he doesn't try....

Just quote it...

Here's just a few....

QuoteIf that's the case...no one should race against him.

But on any Sunday, there are variables.

There are small guys in superbike, and they get beat by Mat Mladin.  He's taller than me.  So, is Yates.

Ed's biggest advantages are in his hands and in his head.  You're just reinforcing the fact that everyone is lookng at the machine as the only reason for his winning.

QuoteWe're not saying that it is the ONLY reason he wins.  I'm just saying that his size is an advantage.


Dawn

QuoteHis size is an advantage in as much as Mladin's size is a disadvantage.

Doesn't change the outcome.  No one at the regional level, wants to sit down and actually beat Ed.  

I think EVERYBODY can give themselves an advantage by losing a little weight and not on the bike, Sure Ed has an advantage because of his weight,(not the only reason he wins) but so can anybody. I don't only work hard during the race season but work harder on the off. I don't have the money for all the trick ti parts but I have the heart to bust my butt at the gym 7 days a week. It's sure not easy but if it was easy the gym's would be packed, there not. But the bars sure are.

Stumpy

After reading the title of this thread...


Why AMA road racing will never be big time...
Because Ed Key is skinny ???



Stumpy

QuoteAfter reading the title of this thread...


Why AMA road racing will never be big time...
Because Ed Key is skinny ???



Stumpy

LOL!!!!

 ;D

I remember someone beating Key at Blackhawk. #158 I think, flat black sv with red trim.  Well, it was raining, but he was proud of the accomplishment nonetheless. As would anyone.

QuoteI remember someone beating Key at Blackhawk. #158 I think, flat black sv with red trim.  Well, it was raining, but he was proud of the accomplishment nonetheless. As would anyone.

Paul has finished in front of Ed, twice (mechanicals don't count in my book).  Both times were in the rain.  Ed was so cool and even signed Paul's first place trophy "I want a rematch, this time in the dry."   ;D

That's the next goal, to beat the little guys on a bright sunny day.  Either that, or I'm going to need to brush up on my rain dancing skills.

 ;D

I can give rain dance lessons, I'm already in dance  training for AMA Road America ;D Should be nice and rainy on April Road America....Oh the fun



Stumpy

That's fine, bring on the rain.  

Ed Key on his LW Superbike or Ed Key on his LW Superbike with 100 pounds added to it.

Which one would he be fastest on?

Dave?

K3?

Dawn?

 ;)

QuoteI remember someone beating Key at Blackhawk. #158 I think, flat black sv with red trim.  Well, it was raining, but he was proud of the accomplishment nonetheless. As would anyone.

That was Matt Malterer.
Ed hates the rain. Heck, I beat Ed in the rain last year!

Steve Atlas beat Ed Key in the dry as a novice at Gateway. Brian Lacy beats him at Gingerman. Jesse beat him at Blackhawk. Ed is very fast and knows his setup, but he is not invincible you know!

The cool thing about Ed: When you battle with him and beat him, He'll be the first to congratulate you!   :D

OK people, break it up, move along, there's nothing to see here............

Power to weight ratio is a real factor.

     My brother races his car at the local 1/4 mile dragstrip and has one of the fastest truely street driven cars in the area (9.0 second 1/4). We have a software program that calculates Horsepower and Torque that different engine configurations will produce and it's extremely accurate. Another capability of this software is to calculate 1/4 mile times based on the combination of Hp, tire diameter, & weight of the vehicle, the accuracy of this program is amazing as well! It comes down to the simple fact that if you do nothing more than change the weight of the vehicle it will change the 1/4 mile time at a predictable rate (whether adding or subtracting weight). As long as you are able to apply the power to the ground you will see faster 1/4 mile times by adding Hp as well, slower times will be the result of Hp removal.

     I recently saw a news program on SPEED that dealt with this very subject and how real of an issue it is. They said that numerous racing bodies are considering/implementing/or have implemented handicapping rules concerning weight. The idea was that most forms of racing impose some type of weight restrictions, usually being a mimimum standard, and that costs have skyrocketted as a result due to the use on many unobtanium parts trying to achieve the absolute lowest weight allowable. Another very important factor was that many very talented racers who are larger framed are not even considered in many cases due to their personal weight, this is a major factor in why so many factory racers are smaller individuals (power to weight ratio). Motorcycle GP racing and F1 were 2 of the racing bodies considering the change which would impose a standard racer weight that each vehicle would have to meet thru either the operators personal weight or ballast on the machine somewhere. I believe that GP was considering 170 lbs. as a rider minimum weight being carried on the bike (example= 130 lb rider + 40 lbs of ballast weight on the bike - no matter what the weight of the bike alone is).

     As far as why 600's beat 1000's on some tracks, yes it's the rider. I think it's a pretty generally accepted fact that the lower the Hp of a bike the easier it is to turn due to not having so much power to be able to break the rear tire lose with. There is definately a point where you pass that point of easily controllable power to having to be careful with the right wrist, the more that comes into play the less people you will see able to apply that power to the ground controllably. Setting the track record on a 1000 at BFR is a sight to behold and gains much respect from myself. There are a number of people that ride close to that time on a 600 which is impressive, but ultimately with less risk than was required on the 1000 which has power radiating off of it. I'm certainly not trying to take anything away from those riders on the 600's, but until they can do the same feat on a 1000 I have to say that when your talking about lap records the 1000 rider was truely talented in being able to keep that thing on the track.

     So does power and weight really make a difference? yes. But even more so is the ability of the rider to be able to apply what they have to the track. I personally am quite heavy and saw an instantaneous reduction in lap times in the 1st 5 laps I rode on my 750 after riding my 600 for a few years. My 750 has about 30 more Hp than my old 600 and I was instantly 4 seconds a lap faster once I got on a bike with more Hp. At Daytona I was in the Unlimited GP race and had the experience of being next to Jamie Hacking coming out of the infield. We were next to each other as we both accelerated out onto the back straight and he walked away from me like my bike had a spark plug wire off. This was a great example of power to weight ratio, not only is he much lighter than myself but his bike has more Hp than mine. Add 80 pounds to his bike, lower the Hp to the same as mine, and I bet he wouldn't be turning the same times that he does now. :)

Thought it might be interesting to pull this back up. I'm sure there are a few people on the board now that wern't aroung when this post was started.....

Let the good times begin :)

LOL!  I was wondering who would start such a thread.   :biggrin:

Well, at least with the recent Suzuki crankshaftgate controversy, we know that DMG will enforce the rules with a little more moxie.

A.M.A.=...ALWAYS MASTICATE ALMONDS