Motorcycle Racing Forum

Ok, I recently returned to roadracing after a ten year hiatus.  When I originally raced, qualifying at a club level was a pipe dream.  It seems now, with the transponders, it should be a cake walk... especially with the practice Saturday, race Sunday format (Twin sprints would be a little harder, but feasible).  CCS officials manage to get it done for unlimited GP, why not all classes?  Not to slight any other riders, but I spend 4 laps getting from last to fourth only to find out the top three had left the building !  I am not the greatest passer because I am way too courteous, safety being key, however my lap times are usually in the top two or three... hmmm.  Anyway, I'm sure you guys who have been racing the past few years have argued this point, so forgive me if that is the case, but what will it take to get CCS to adopt this format?
  I know the usual responses: "get a better start", "learn to pass better", etc., but why not use that start to get a well earned jump on your closest competitor instead of catching up to the guy three spots behind him?

NO can do.. we can barely get in all the races in on Sat and Sun as it is.

Where are you  FL?  Reason I ask is Henry runs things differently than the rest of the regions.  

It would take too long, too much work, and I'd rather just race than have qualifying also.

     Your right, this has been discussed into oblivion! It all comes down to not enough time to qualify every class and then how to assure that the correct bike is being used to qualify with. In ULGP you can run basically anything so there isn't a question of if the bike that was run during qualifying was legal for ULGP.

     The obvious solution is to pre-register for your races if you want to run up front from the start. It doesn't cost you any more money to enter ahead of time and once you start doing it you'll probably realize it's alot faster at registration at the track when your pre-registered. It does require a commitment ahead of time to attend an event when you pre-register, but your rewarded for that commitment by having a good starting position. Some people seem to think that you have to be rich to be pre-entered, but all you do is send in your 1st entry of the season at least 2 weeks early and continue that cycle thru-out the season, doesn't cost a dime more (actually some events reward lower entry fees to those that pre-enter, like at the Race of Champions). Pre-entry speeds up registration for the racers and staff alike and makes it so the grids can already be partially finished before CCS staff arrive at the track. Just make sure that if you fax in your pre-entry that you recieve a confirmation fax of CCS recieving your entry (I fax my pre-entry to CCS at my local Kinko's copy center, which gives you a confirmation of CCS recieving it).

I personally think it should be done by points.  Those who have the most points tend to have the most skill and/or desire to be up front by attending all the races.  Being a racer, I live paycheck to paycheck to pay for this stuff...so I don't have the money to pre-register months in advance.  :(  

Yup Clay.. as Mike said.. been there, done that.

Pros to gridding by registration... the fast guys don't always have the advantage of always being up front. It's anyone's game.

Pros to gridding by points... rewards those consistent/fast guys.

However.. as I see it... if you're consistent enough that you're leading in points.. it's more than likely that you're planning or have planned to goto most of the races no?... so if you know this...man... :)  then you would/should pre-enter anyways. :)  


And btw... it doesn't take months in advance to get a good grid position :)

At some races it does...like VIR and Barber!  But I just don't have the money to pay for races so far in advance when I'm spending on so many other things.  Luckily, I'm finally pre-registered for the rest of my races this year (except the ROC) just because I've won enough certs to do so.  

I really feal the "fair" way to do things is grid by points.  Gridding by registration is a matter of who has the biggest wallet.  :(

I would like to see the AM Unl GP do qualifying though.  It's for the same amount of money as the experts race for, so I don't think qualifying is a bad idea.  But I agree, qualifying for each race would be a joke!

QuoteI personally think it should be done by points.  Those who have the most points tend to have the most skill and/or desire to be up front by attending all the races.

     That isn't exactly true Clay. I ran 4 classes the whole season last year across 3 regions as more of a recreational effort than a serious race effort. I was running at a comfortable pace at the back of the pack with no real desire to push at the front of the pack last season. Low and behold about 3/4 of the way thru the season I was winning 9 championships and was top 3 in the other 3 classes, all while finishing at the back in every race I entered all season. I personally don't think points would really be the way to go, though it would reward those that are committed to the whole season.

QuoteBeing a racer, I live paycheck to paycheck to pay for this stuff...so I don't have the money to pre-register months in advance.  :(  

Being in the middle of the season I will admit that it's a little more difficult to start pre-entering along with paying for the current events that your not pre-entered for. But what I suggest is to think ahead toward the next season when this season ends and start putting away a certain amount of money every week for pre-entry next season. What ever your putting aside now for racing expenses should be continued during the off-season so your ready when next season approaches. That way you could do like I use to do, which was to be pre-entered for the next 2 races all season. After I raced an event I would pre-enter again so as to re-establish the 2 events worth of pre-entry. The nice thing about doing this also is that at the end of the season (when money is getting really tight) you'll be done entering for anymore races when there's still 2 more events left.

The only way to qualify all races is to add aobut 4 hours of daylight to the day.  Prereg is the way to go.  Saying that is for rich guys is a farce.  If you have a race in thirty days, that you have know about for 4 months, you have had plenty of time to save up for a preentry unless you were unemployed for three of those months, in which case you should probably be paying all the late bills and not racing.  I think gridding by points, while it would work, screws the up and coming learning racer.  We have all been told you get faster by riding and racing with those faster than you.  How can you have a chance to do that if the top 5 guys get off the front and are gone on the first lap?  

Gridding by pre entry is a better idea I think. I went to Road A with WERA, who grid by points, I'm not saying I am as fast as Geoff May who was winning everything but I had same lap times as 2nd, 3rd, 4th, which could have been Suzuki money in my pocket. Oh well grid by points so I had to start 2nd wave, 20th row and such. People whp pre enter usually are slow, they want to be further up so they can finish up better, them being slower makes it easier to pass, so I think CCS has the right idea, but AMA has the best idea, make less classes and add qualifying.

You got it racen123, less classes!  But you guys do bring up a point I hadn't thought of, making sure you are qualifying on the right bike.  Just for the record, I am pre registering for future races, it just doesn't seem fair to someone who may be faster (I know that is how I feel when it is me who gets held up).  But, I guess it is the best we have unless you want to tour the U.S.A

(sticking my spoon ALL the way into the pot...)

Fewer classes?  What classes do ya'all propose be eliminated?

Quote(sticking my spoon ALL the way into the pot...)

Fewer classes?  What classes do ya'all propose be eliminated?

Eliminate GP classes or Superbike classes.

A guy running MWGP is eliglible for MWSB.  Eliminate MWSB.

Get rid of HWSB and put them in ULGP.

Get rid of LWSB and put them in LWGP.

Just gained 45 minutes on the schedule there.

Really want to make a dent, put three GT races each on Saturdays for amateurs and experts.  GTL, GTU, GTO

Amatuers can have a reasonable schedule of races on Sunday.

Reduce expert races to Twins, Lightweight Superbike (Thunderbike with TZ250?), Sportbike, Formula Sportbike, and Unlimited GP.  Double the length of the race, add qualifying and give our a purse that pays down the grid.

Keep a Formula 40 class.

Qualifying seems nice in conversation, but without a major change (reduction in racing) in the schedule, probably wouldn't work.  Back-to-backs aren't fun as it is.

My issue is more time to burn up tires and fuel.  I think we'd rather wear out tires racing than qualifying.  

It is kind of fun for the Unlimited GP, though.  And it seems appropriate as there is a purse to win.  

Oh yeah, and this year we're all for gridding by points!   ;D

Heather

We all should be gridded according to Height and Weight. Fat tall guys first.. skinny midgets last.

Not being a richie and never knowing I can make the next races because of work ect., hardley ever able to pre-enter. Almost always start at the back, this is not a bad thing because my bike is somewhat slow, and the bikes I'm able to pass is like where I should end up. Also stay out of the way of fast guys who would pass anyway.
I have been fortunate to make every race so far this season so up in the points, if gridded by points I'd start near the front and be a back marker right from the start, wouldn't bother me, but wouldn't want to hold up faster guys on faster bikes.
Hoping for a more competitive machine next season.

If qualifying had some reward or bragging/boasting that came with it, then I think people would put in a much greater effort for qualifying.  Ya know, something else to track and put on our resume.  For experts it would give you a taste of what the prof ranks are like.

You can even set it up where, if you didn't want to qualify, you just accept the grid position given to you by registration.  That way, if only a handful of people really want to try and qualify, they can have at it, while everyone else just gambles on when they registered.  This could be sorted out during registration check-in.

QuoteYou can even set it up where, if you didn't want to qualify, you just accept the grid position given to you by registration.  That way, if only a handful of people really want to try and qualify, they can have at it, while everyone else just gambles on when they registered.  This could be sorted out during registration check-in.

And it does work that way...

Qualifying does involve some risk.  MAM on Saturday was a good example.  It was wet for qualifying.  Some guys went out immediately on rains.  I know I waited until the last minute and went out on DOT's.  Others didn't go out at all and just took their position based on entry.

I enjoy the process.  

I just want to be close to the front.  With my bizzare eyesight, it's certainly harder from me further back getting through traffic.  First Blackhawk, I did my traditional practice on really worn tires, and continued on with those tires in qualifying...Never again, as I was just not doing the lap times I can do...it was too hard to try to play catch up to get my money back.

This year I've had a third and second position qualifying time.  I would like to have a qualifying pole...

You guys should stop arguing and have everyone do a few rounds of rock/paper/scissors. ::) ;D

No arguing here, this isn't WERA.  :P

I'd like it to be based on points, just for those of us that are actually chasing a championship.  I'm not really "pissed" about it being based off of registration though.  It just makes it seem a little less like "real" racing when it's done that way.  

If you are racing for point, it almost doesn't matter where you start, as long as you are near the people who are in contention for the championship.  When chasing a championship at the club level, a lot of luck is involve, then consistency comes next.  If someone show up once or twice, then snatches a win, in the long run it won't matter much.

Last year, I finished 4th in the LWGP championship, having only finished as high as 5th the entire season.  A few times I was close to leading the championship, but I blame bike problems for that.  I guess what I am saying is qualifying will benefit those most interested in it, but a championship will take more than a few good qualifying sessions.  The real benefit may not even be realized for a few seasons - strategy-wise.

Food for thought

Think of this pre reg is done to help speed things up on the race weekend by handling many(most?) entries prior to the weekend. In order to continue to encourage people to pre enter then post entries prices would have a surcharge on them.

i vote 4 rock/papper/scissors....we sign up when we get 2 the track, plus i like the game ;D

Now that's an idea!  LOL

So how many folks are allowed to play rock/paper/scissors?  ;D

Clay, I think that people that are chasing points whould not have the 'game' made easier by points gridding.  Remember champoinships have been won by riders who never won a race all season, ala B. Bostrom.  As far as qualifying for some and the rest can get sorted by registration- good idea-but will never work.  How many bitches and moans have we heard about with incorrect gridding as things are now?  Throw in a curve like that and registration would never get to sit around and not get your points/contingencies/trophies right (disclaimer- i am marrying a gal from registration who is currently laughing along at my jest!).  With the number of people, the number of races (although too many,but where does the guy with the Hon-Taco-Muz race?) and the time constraints of making sure that everyone gets the most track time of ANY organization or club in the US that regularly has 250+ entries, the current way just seems like the way to go.  As an announcer/entertainer, I love qualifying as ot really can make a show interesting and adds some excitement if it goes well and you have some talent on hand (never a prob here in SW land- Home of CCS High School!), but just can't see a way out of where we are at at this time.  By the way, there were lots of good ideas in  this post- that is the way I like to see complaints done. ;D

Ya know, it's always easier to speculate a negative outcome before ever attempting something.  We might be suprised.  There is obviously an additional complexity, but might improve things, especially if you remove certain classes at the expert level.  Keep all of the amatuer classes, and reduce the number of expert classes, while making the expert races a little longer (kinda what Super Dave said).

QuoteKeep all of the amatuer classes, and reduce the number of expert classes, while making the expert races a little longer (kinda what Super Dave said).

No way dude.. I'd rather race more races for contingency than have less and longer. If you wanna have qualifying.. do a National race.

ecumike,
Super Dave also mentioned paying the purse deeper, which could also imply extending the contingencies further into the field, or bulking them up more.  I like supporting my sponsors, some of which aren't participating in the CCS/FUSA contingency program, something I might need to reconsider for next year.  From what I understand most of the $11 million in contingency wasn't enough taken last year.  Why?  Poor choice of companies, bad products, or other preferences. If you are riding a 125GP bike, how much contingency were you really getting?

Don't get me wrong, I like running a lot of races.  If you make a mistake in one, you still have another to make it up, but I think that makes the competition a little less serious at the same time.

What we need is a paradigm shift.  Make the amatuer classes very broad, so club racers can get all of the enjoyment out of motorcycle racing.  Then push the expert classes to become more professional and run like pro races, so talented racers are more prepared for the next level.  Maybe this should apply only to the MW/HW/UNL expert classes, where most racers are going to find a pro outlet.

This could do a few things:
- negative: alienate the racers with no interest in racing as a pro and potentially cost more for the racer
- positive: a process is formed that will help privateer riders develop not only their riding talent, but learn how to build the mindset necessary to compete at the pro level.  Such as going to a track, breaking it down in a few breif practice sessions, qualify, then prepare to race, all while showing your sponsors why your program deserves their support

If we are going to grow the sport, it has to start at the club level.  It covers more of the population because it's more spread out and there are more rounds.  It has the potential to touch the street rider more easily which if marketed well could be signifcant (look at all of the track days, and the track day riders becoming racers).

I'm rambling now ...

Rock, paper, sissors...another vote..   8)

Let the debates begin...  Eric, let's see if any good ideas are here.

One - I love motorcycle road racing.  But race day is so boring.  How many classes do we have...like fifty?  It feels like fifty!

Here's one idea.  

Three categories of riders.  A truely amateur class...this is for guys that are in fact new.  Give them a year, give them limited classes with no championships, and no contingencies.  Some riders will graduate out quicker than others.  That's fine.  We want a learning class.  I see too much stupid stuff going on with new guys.  

And how is a new guy supposed to compete against an expert that bumps down to amateur?  That's BS, period.  I have examples.  I don't care if the guy is entering ten races a weekend, or that he missed a year, they aren't "amatuers" and they ARE taking contingency money away from real amatures.  (There wouldn't be contingency in my REAL amatuer class.)

Next, you need a class that would fulfill a classification for many faster newer riders and the recreational racers.  Current six year amateurs and some experts that race for fun would fill this category.  I'd have fair contingency and a couple of classes with a purse or certificate pay back.

This is where you could have a more diverse number of classes.  Then you can have MZ battles all day long.  

Then you could have your show classes.  Hey, there are people that actually come to the race track to try to go faster than anyone else.  Some of those riders work on their set up and spend a great deal on trying to build some kind of program to do events that have TV coverage, etc.

Put some money up, get the contingency wagon going.  This might actually LOOK interesting to a spectator that isn't a good friend of yours or a family memeber.  And it will show that their is something to aspire too with some reward.

As for growing the sport...

It WON'T start at the club level.  

Mladin, Bostrom's, Rainey, DuHammel, Zemke and some other names didn't do club racing in the US system to get where they were.  They were dirt trackers, did racing in foreign lands, etc. to get where they were.

Polen and Russell and James...those were guys that actively used the club racing system, but that was an era long out of reach of most of you.

The sport is growing from the top, but the club level has remained the same, other than adding a lot more classes...and paying amateurs purses and contingencies...which was traditionally unheard of...that was reserved for experts,,,and it has led to the corrupt system of sandbagging amateurs.

When a guy that started the year before has to race against a guy that raced for five years, goes expert, then "becomes" an amateur...so how do you explain that do your mom?  Your friends?  

If the system looks bad...

"My son got second to a guy that was a pro the year before but was moved back to his class because he said he would enter ten races a weekend...It's all about money isn't it?"

That makes the riders unhappy, and me too...a guy that doesn't have the money that some of the amateurs have...but some how I keep at this.  

Thoughts?

Rock.

Yea, all good thoughts here.

It is a bit of a conundrum though.. I think you wanna make club/regional racing attractive to the newcomers/AMs and wanna be racers, but don't give them enough that they would want to stay AM and sandbag. Like pointed out, maybe less contin. or certs only, etc.

I do like the ranges of classes, however, back to one thing SD said.. maybe you could get rid of the SBK classes.. does anyone race SBK that doesn't also race the GP races? They're not THAT much different are they?  At least in the LW div. I see all the same racers in SS, SBK, and GP.

Good points Dave, expect for the Bostroms not running club events (or others like Edwards, Russell, James etc)  The B's ran local dirt track in Cali, and even came to a couple of CCS SW events both in Harley and Honda support ride roles for testing, learning and having fun.  Nicky Moore who is in his rookie year of AMA Pro racing is getting in to the top tens and will get much better as his talent grows- bigtime club racer. Geoff May- big time club racer.  Zemke to my knowledge has not raced anywhere but the US.  The club or Pro-Am level as I consider CCS breeds many future top running pro's as does the dirt tracks of America.  Qualifying for UNGP is really all that is needed.  It is the only premier class we have at the current time.  It's grids usually filled with the fastest, most skilled riders on the best prepped, great looking machines of the region.  The only (okay, not the only but I have bored you enough...hey are you still there?) thing that could make it better is to lengthen the UNGP races and make a top ten plate system for the class to help racers that earn one earn sponsorship and show who is the 'fastest top ten' riders in the region.  I agree that there are too many classes, especially in LW divisions and Kevin already started to address that by combining classes or dropping them for '04.  But as long as CCS keeps getting good numbers of entries in a class it will stay around.  This has been an awesome thread by the way.

Club racing can be cheap track time....

But Bostrom's came from dirt track in their learning process.  Wasn't Zemke out of that same mold?  Nicky Moore's a dirt tracker too, right?  Jesse Janisch, Cummings, Young, Eslick...they learned how to ride because they had the hard competition of dirt track.  That's what makes them pretty darn good road racers.  The things from dirt track apply, just gotta get them to adjust their body positioning...

Roberts, Lawson, Spencer....

I was thinking today about May being one of the guys that came from club road racing....we'd have to add Jensen and Denning also.  But we don't see them running AMA stuff 'cause they can make more money, even if teams try to pay them, racing for Yamaha money.

Mladin's payout for winning at Laguna last year was $4k and some change.  The next weekend, Denning walked away with $8k from Yamaha after winning four races at Blackhawk Farms.

And the guy that spent the money to win the championship in that region at Blackhawk got?  

Well, he got a plate.  

haha dave, i had paper, didn't u see it,...........u lose! <scary laugh> muh hoo hahahahaha

that above statement and this statement is/was by jesse janisch, im on kevins computer and didn't realize that he was signed in.

Quotethat above statement and this statement is/was by jesse janisch, im on kevins computer and didn't realize that he was signed in.

Ssshhhhh........

Don't tell anyone.  Go ahead, make a few goofy posts and then watch Kevin's face as people walk up to him an say,  "What did you mean when you said on the board...."

 ;D

Well, one important thing to look at here is...what's going to change?!?!?  We can talk all we want, but let's face it, CCS is run by a greedy corporation that doesn't give a damn about us racers.   >:(  I'd love for some of the suggestions to come under serious consideration, but it won't.  

That's plain wrong...

There might be a corportation that is looking at CCS Racing as something that they can get a return for their money, but to say that the staff of CCS doesn't care, etc...  That's BS.

Since 1999, I have had three rules changed.  I gave input into purses for this year.  I'd say that I have some reasonable contact with some of the CCS staff.  And there are times when I don't agree at all with what happens.  And there are times when I eventually get my way.

If you've got ideas, get 'em out, let's talk, and one builds support for new ideas or changes to existing ones.

This is like racing...you can't win if you quit.  Winners never quit.

You're never gonna get anything changed telling yourself that they don't care...

I'm not talking about the CCS staff, I'm talking about Clear Channel.  ;)  I know the CCS staff cares, but the fact that they're so horribly understaffed tells me that the big dogs don't give a damn about anything but the dime.

Basically, does our ideas come down to saving money or costing money?  Saving money...SURE they can do that.  Cost?  HA, that's funny.

Anyhow, my opinions?  There still needs to be contingency and payouts in the Am class.  I spent more than 1000 dollars this past weekend at Roebling.  If I'm not going to get a shot at making some of that back, why in the hell would I be racing to begin with?  I'd go do a track day where I can get triple the track time for a quarter of the cost.  No, I don't expect to make money doing this, but it's nice to be able to make some of it up!  With that said, I fully believe that experts should get paid more.  I in no right think that it's fair that I get paid the same amount for an amateur win as I would an expert win.  Contingency is really up to the vendors, so I don't think we have a say in it either way.  But I think it all should pay further back in the field and more for experts.  

Less classes?  Yeah, I can definitely go along with that.  I don't think there needs to be a superbike class.  It's the same as GP, but without any money.  I run the unlimited classes and like it the way it is with no superbike class.  I wish Henry would get a GP class though for the Ams.  It sucks going all the way down to Florida for only two races.  It also sucks going all the way down there not being able to make a dime.  It's also going to suck for those good Florida racers that enter the Am GP at the ROC.  They haven't been able to get any points in GP and will be stuck at the back of the grid.  

Any other opinions?  Sure.  Daytona...take it off the schedule.  It hurts my points, but I won't race there.  It's too damn dangerous, ridiculously dangerous.  If anyone cares about racers lives, they'd take that track off the schedule.  I know people like racing there, but again...it's horribly dangerous.  

With the complaints out of the way, I'd like to say thanks to the CCS staff.  You do a lot with a little, and you've always been friendly.  As long as you don't loose my pre-registration I'll keep on keeping that opinion.  :P

QuoteAnyhow, my opinions?  There still needs to be contingency and payouts in the Am class.  I spent more than 1000 dollars this past weekend at Roebling.  If I'm not going to get a shot at making some of that back, why in the hell would I be racing to begin with?

     The whole amateur contingency subject has been argued to death many times, but the general reasons for wanting it eliminated (or greatly reduced) seems to echo the same thru each debate of the subject. For those of us that have been with CCS for a while, we have seen several trends that seem to continue like sandbagging (racers staying amateur when they should be going expert). This often times happens because of the contingency offered in the amateur classes and the ease of winning it for the sandbaggers. A 2nd but equally important reason for wanting it eliminated is the fact that many racers stay amateur because it's comfortable there. Why would someone want to fight harder than needed for a decent payout? When you go expert you will have to earn that money against tough competitors instead of cherry-picking the amateurs. If there were no contingency in the amatuer races, and larger/deeper payouts in the expert classes, I bet you would see ALOT more racers going expert sooner! This would probably help to eliminate the expert level amateurs who accumulate most of the race winnings through out the country year after year.

     Sadly though there is another trend that runs true, length of participation in this sport. So many racers have come and gone in the time that I have been racing with CCS that the 2-3 year expectancy of most racers staying with our sport seems very accurate. This in itself results in a problem of the vendors wanting to make the most money possible, so they pay-out in the amatuer classes. The theory behind this is that if you train someone to use their product during a vulnerable period (learning) that hopefully they will become long time users of that product and encourage others to also use that product. The vendors offer the contingency to amateurs hoping for a bigger profit from all the non-contingency earning amateur racers who will also use their products because they are on the payout sheet.

     I have seen many amateur racers who were very hesitant to go expert because they were either intimidated or felt they wouldn't be able to earn contingency anymore because they were "going to get their butt kicked" in the expert class. This is where higher/deeper payouts in the expert classes would encourage amatuers to advance. The amatuer class is where you go from crawling, to learning to walk, to starting to run. Encouraging racers to stay at the walking stage isn't healthy for keeping racers in this sport, which is what amateur contingency does.

     Honestly Clay, if you knew that you wouldn't make a dime from winnings/contingency until you went expert, wouldn't that encourage you to want to go expert as soon as possible? If you knew that the expert classes paid deep enough into the field to a point that you knew you could achieve, wouldn't that make you want to go expert ASAP? I thought I would get my butt handed to me when I went expert back in '98, but I was running top 5 at my 1st expert event! I believe that if the expert pay-outs were higher/deeper into the field that you would see alot more racers stay in this sport alot longer. In case you don't know the #1 thing that causes racers to exit this sport is massive debt or inability to financially continue doing it. Sadly the people you often times see leaving are the people that could have passed on valuable knowledge to the amateurs. There are not alot of veterans in this sport which in itself screams that there is a problem.

     In my opinion amateur contingency hurts the sport more in the long term by taking money away from the racers who continue to support the sport. Moving that money to help support more of the experts would help to keep more racers roadracing for longer. :)

I think that's why I say "more for expert, less for am".  But don't completely take it away from the amateurs.  I'm telling you, that contingency is what's keeping me racing!  If I hadn't won the money I had at Roebling this past weekend, it literally would have broke me.  I came home with two 200 dollar checks.  I put one in the bank which put me at -50 and one is being saved for Barber.  The contingency I made mainly from Dunlop is almost enough to pay for one set of tires.  I went thru almost 3 sets at Roebling.  I go out there to win and nothing else.  Winning costs money.  Again, that money I got is now what's making it possible to continue on and fight for the championship.  

In retrospect, I also see what you're saying.  I think it's disgusting that an expert level racer would continue to cherry pick.  I can't wait to go expert.  In fact, I was ecstatic to race with and beat experts in the SS and GTO races!  LOL  I know I won't make as much money next year though, and that also hurts.  I guess I see it both ways.  You can't take away money from the amateurs.  But you can't fairly give an expert the same for first place as you do an amateur.  

On the other hand, you don't want amateurs jumping up to the big leagues too quickly!  I'll tell you, sometimes it's scary racing in the am class.  Some of those guys don't have a clue what a "line" is.  Do you really want those guys jumping up to expert as soon as they can?  They should still be rewarded for a good finish, and to have an incintive to keep on working hard.  

With all of that said...how many people here race to make money?  I know I sure as hell don't.  I'm racing because it's my dream.  I'm racing because I want to someday be sponsored and fight in the big leagues.  I'm racing because I know I'm good enough, and can't imagine wasting the one thing I'm good at.  Money?  That just makes all the cash I spend a little more bearable.  :P

Couple points as a semi retired official ( basically I am not in a postion to effect any of this just been around long enough to know how most things work)

If you reduce/remove AM contingency/purse all the new riders will jump ship to those organizations that have AM contingency/purse.

Clay you say that CCS is not listening or making changes; this is mid season of the first year of adding qualifying to EX ULGP, CCS has held very firm in not making major changes mid year, don't expect any classes being killed or practices/qualifying changed until next year.. Have you heard official word that qualifying has been shot down? No there has been no official word for what happens next year.

Daytona dangerous? yes but every track has some elemnet of danger is Daytona the most dangerous motorcycle track in the states? no far from it based on deaths and injuries per racing mile and even based on injuries/deaths per year it does not rank very high. walls can look bad but placement is very key to injuries from impact with those walls.

gridding
by points is really who has the fattest wallet. in order to be gridded in front prior to mid season it's who gets their entry in first since if you post enter first weekend you are gridded in last wave you often will not move up enough until 2-3 races in to actually be gridded in the first couple of rows if you run winners lap times (which with traffic is not common). miss a race you are now gridded behind people you are faster than while your real competition was out front and had clear track. after mid season  you must have spent a ton on entries/tires/travel/racing to have front row points, also those that do grids based on points have a surcharge for post entry even more $$

by pre entry it is race by race if you enter only 2 races you enter those a month or so in adavance and you are normally gridded within the first 5 rows. If you are running the whole season that entering a race or two in advance is just budgeting and cheaper even if you post enter as there is no extra charge for post entry.

gridding is best done by qualifying but this is club/Pro-Am racing and there are tradeoffs; race time outweighs qualifying. classes out weigh qualiying for the time being as qualifying would be included in race fee whereas having an extra race is charged. would you be willing to double your entry fee for a race of equal distance that had qualifying? doubt many would and that is reality qualifying needs a minimum of 15 minutes to be effective a race takes 15-20 minutes. practice is not an option for qualifying as explained earlier.

Don't think of racing as any sort of entitlment just because you win at the am level or even the epxert level does not mean you are owed anything. I ran endurance races for 4 years no purse or contingency just pure racing for the love of being on a racebike average cost per year was over 15,000 that is almost 2grand a weekend. We ran hard and finished well most years 5,2,9(we quit mid year due to castrophic injury to a rider),6 (skipped last two rounds as riders flaked then I canceled the endurance team and sold bike). I atually don't like the purse and contingency  programs at all and I think they have hurt club racing more than they have helped. why? in order to pay contingency a vendor must charge more for their product to cover the payout club must charge more to pay purse. ridrs must now buy more supplies (bikes, tires, brakes, oil, fuel, etc) in order to beat the other guy who also spent $$ on supplies in order to win the contingency that is offered so that they can buy more supplies $$ and if you are out of top 5 or so you make 0 andyou most likely spent as much as the guy who took the 5-10-15-20% whatever in markup on products you used to pay his contingency when he won 1st place. basically contingency/purse has made club racing a have/havenot situation. I would prefer if the pricing was brought down no contingency offered and racing was more pure for the sake of being the best on the track and when you wanted to make money you went off to a seperate pro FUSA race that had the contingency and purses. so there would really be three levels of racers AM (beginners) EX (those preparing for pro compettion and seasoned riders) and PRO (those wanting to make money and compete against the tougher competition) the lack of contingency/purse on club level would reduce cheerypicking, reduce cost (noone would have to verify, send in, keep track, or recruit contingency sponsors) and I think make for and even more relaxed family atmosphere at the track ( you really are just racing for a piece of wood then), eliminate anyone having any conflict with medical or life insurance.

Is this at all possible not today club racing changed 20 years ago when Honda put serious money in club racing.

Sorry it is late and I tried to catch as many of typos/grammer/spelling errors as I could.

Quote.... I went thru almost 3 sets at Roebling.

Holy fuch, 2-3 sets/weekend!
WOW, makes me even more glad I race a small bike.

:D

Yup, you race a liter bike...you go thru tires.  :(

All good points from everyone.  They've all got plusses and minuses.  

QuoteThere still needs to be contingency and payouts in the Am class.  I spent more than 1000 dollars this past weekend at Roebling.  If I'm not going to get a shot at making some of that back, why in the hell would I be racing to begin with?

Contingency for amatuers is really new.  Purse payouts of any kind for amatuers is six years old?  Maybe.

The point of being an amatuer used to be that you gained experience to get those white plates.

Now you have sandbaggers from region to region.  Guys that move into another region to take the money.  Guys that spend unbelieveable amounts of money to be "amateur" champions.

Daytona off the schedule?  Never happen.  Without Daytona International Speedway, Championship Cup Series would have never existed.  Their involvement and help has been way to valuable to CCS.

QuoteIf you reduce/remove AM contingency/purse all the new riders will jump ship to those organizations that have AM contingency/purse.

Hard to do in the midwest where CCS doesn't have any competition.

If the structure that I proposed existed, it might work.  CCS should also have a product that attracts riders.  Would a new structure?

QuoteI would prefer if the pricing was brought down no contingency offered and racing was more pure for the sake of being the best on the track and when you wanted to make money you went off to a seperate pro FUSA race that had the contingency and purses.

DOT tires are more and more like real racing tires.  We were paying a little under $200 for a set of Dunlop K591's for 600 Katana's in 1988/89.  Paying a little over $300 for a set of radial tires for a 600 now is great.  The 591's didn't last long for Russell, Polen, and those guys then.  Fresher will always be faster.  Same goes today.

The contingency makes it attractive for a rider to try and enter fifty races a weekend to get points for the ridiculous championships.  Those championships would be fine if the last place guy got one point, rather than 31 points for doing one lap and finishing twentieth.

There are manufacturers that have brought down the prices of bodywork.  Hey, there was a time when we used stock bodywork.  

Bike prices have increased.  My 1988 Katana retailed for $4k...new R6's $8k.  

When I started racing in 1987 - entry fees - $30 for the first entry, $20 for the second, $10 for the third...they went up that year too...

Purses are the things that have not went up.

In the early 70's, Yamaha contingency payed out $2500 in the 250 class for the win, and $3500 for the 350 class for the win...TD3's (Yamaha 250 GP bike) cost about $2500, and Yamaha TR3's (350 GP bike) cost $350.  

My first AMA race was in 1988.  There were complaints then that the Superbike purse was lower than the 250 GP purse from eight years before.

Experts are pros.  That's all there is to it.  Fritz Kling still has a CCS or WERA expert license.  He can go race Suzuki money, etc.  So can Robert Jensen, Denning, Chuck Sorensen, Mark Junge, Jesse Janisch...

And Stumpy, Jeff Kufalk, Sean Wyatt, and Benji Thornton.

Now of the four above, who wants to run "pro"?

Who doesn't?

The current expert set up needs to be changed to reflect the change in the playing field.  Certainly there are guys out there that have ran pro races, do run pro races, or would like to run pro races.  Their level of mental and mechanical commitment is different from many racers.  They should be rewarded with something that would help them and the show, even if it is a "sportsman" event...some of which still pay $500 to $1500 in contingency money.  

For those that don't want to run "pro" develop that "sportsman" tier for "non-amatuer" and "non-pro" (and maybe that's the best way to look at them).  We all know the guys that ride well and don't need to be yellow platers.  And there are those guys with expert plates that do honestly do this for the fun and community relationship.  

Do I have any takers on building a rules plan on this?  It's time to start talking.

QuoteGuys that spend unbelieveable amounts of money to be "amateur" champions.

And there are those guys with expert plates that do honestly do this for the fun and community relationship.  

Well Dave,

As I look at Paul's amateur championship trophys from last year, I am certainly glad that he was able to have the opportunity to obtain such an accomplishment.  Don't take anything away from that.  Unless Ed Key or Brian Lacy decide to retire, chances are Paul would not be able to earn the expert championship due to size, skill, and bike development.  Did Paul sandbag to stay amateur one more year....  No, he only had 8 weekends of racing under his belt prior to last year and a winning percentage in the 300's (yea, he sucked and he knew it).  Did he send in a petition to stay amatuer, yes, because of the above reasons.  So... for the 2003 season, we ran the full schedule, won a number of races and was in the top five of all races entered except for one.  Paul is now an expert.

If you take away any incentive to stay amateur, you will have those moving to expert long before they are ready.  In a double points weekend, the 750 points to qualify for expert status would not be that hard to accomplish.  Then, these riders without enough race experience, will be running in the expert classes.  Just think about the racer's meetings when the decide to combine both the expert and amature classes or practices.  I hear many experts saying that they don't want them combined because it's too dangerous.  

Becoming an 'expert' is not the big ego boost that you may think it is.  As you said, there are those who run just for the fun of it and Paul is one of those.  

Dawn   :)

     I may not have expressed clearly what I meant by amateurs who should move to expert status sooner. What I meant was those that race more than 2 seasons as an amateur. There have been too many racers that sandbag and run multiple race organizations as an amatuer but limit the number of races in each organization to a point were they wouldn't get bumped up to expert or could petition to stay back. Those people really ruin it for the up and coming racer who may think that they aren't up to speed with the faster amateurs of similar experience, when actually they are racing against expert level amateurs. This could make them think they should stay back another season when they really are ready for the move.

     I too believe that inexperience around dramatically faster riders could cause problems with some of the lesser experienced racers. But if you think about that we already have this situation currently with the combining of some of the fastest classes at every event. I much prefered the days when amateur classes and expert classes were run seperately. But today we have so many classes that this is no longer possible, so we have combined classes which result in the slowest amateurs being lapped by the fastest experts mid-race at an 'on fire' pace.

     As I have expressed a number of times before I believe that the expert upgrade should be based on a combination of experience and lap times as compared to the fastest experts lap times in that same class at that same event. This would be a good way to weed out the multi-year sandbaggers and be more of an accurate measuring stick of ability. Much in the same way that qualifying places you on the grid based on your lap times, upgrading by comparing lap times of amatuers to experts in the same classes at the same event would be hard to dispute. I believe that a fast amateur should be allowed to complete a season once they have reached the 'bump' point to go expert based on lap times. I also believe that this would be a useful tool for CCS when an amateur wished to upgrade to expert mid-season. Just establish a 'bump point' lap time percentage as compared to the experts, similar to what the AMA does to determine the slowest lap time allowed on the grid for the race based on the fastest qualifier time. I believe this would also work well for the system SD proposed of a 3 tier class structure in determining eligibility for the upper most level, just a lower percentage of the fastest qualifiers time would be allowed to race.

Thanks for the clarification Mike.  You have some very good points.

Dawn   :)

Dave, I like your ideas.  I like mine too.  30, 20 and 10 for race entries?  I could only dream as much.  :(  Damn, I paid 330 dollars for my 5 race entries last weekend at RRR.  :(  I won't let go of the idea that you still need contingency and purses for the amateur class.  I also still believe that experts should get paid more and deeper in the field.  

If I win my races at the ROC, I'm going to look at them as a huge accomplishment.  The guys who I'll be racing against out there could run top 5 expert at most events.  This is my first year ever racing.  It's also a tight points race between myself and my team mate Donald.  (Speedster)  I'm thoroughly enjoying it too!  This year in the SE, just showing up at all of the races won't win you an amateur championship...you've got to fight for it.  LOL  I know some of the Florida guys that are going to be hard to beat down at the ROC too.  Anyhow, I ramble on.  I guess I'm with Dawn in saying that an amateur championship for me is something special.  If I win, I will have taken a championship in my first year of racing and will be a first year expert.  That gives me alot of pride, and I'll wear it happily.  ;D

Why?  Noobs and guys that kind of get it.  Combine that with guys that kind of get it and the guys that are trying to race for some potential manufacturers contingency money...  

There are amatuers running around Blackhawk Farms Raceway on 600's doing 1;50's.  I'm into the eleven's.  I can do a 2:06 in my old Ford Van on the track damp, while eating sunflower seeds, and not going over 60MPH in the straights.

I can imagine the terror of approaching a rider in the 1:50's wondering where they are going to go.

I also am very aware of the discomfort that a rider in the 1:50's, 1:30's, and 1:20's feels when being approached from behind by faster riders.

We can't make classes for everyone.

But there was a time not so long ago that the jump, even financially, to AMA Pro wasn't so bad.  Now, the cost of admission has gone up.  With people like "No Limits" taking privateer budgets to new heights...and taking cash and support that was once distributed out to more than one team...the club level competition is a bit different.

Robert Jensen and Larry Denning have no reason to go to AMA events.  I don't unless my program takes me to such a venue to create some kind of return for my program that would be beneficial because of the exposure to a larger base of attendees.

CCS hasn't been affiliated with the AMA since 1994.  I think it's time to start acting like a feeder, and it's not so much any more, and recognize that CCS needs to stand alone and offer something different and unique in the market place that will satisfy more riders, create a more level "playing" field for the various skill levels of the riders there.  That will keep riders in longer, creating a little less turn over, more entrants, maybe more spectator interest (or at least create some interest), and that will keep CCE making a little money.  Might even be enough there that Kevin Elliott can offer some more purse paying classes.

QuoteI won't let go of the idea that you still need contingency and purses for the amateur class.  I also still believe that experts should get paid more and deeper in the field.  

Clay, if I'm getting the impression that you're a fair rider, you'd probably wouldn't be in my "amatuer" classification.

Amateurs - New riders.  Limited experience.  Bump to next level based on riders desire to move up and approval by referee, etc.

Example...guy doing 1:53's at Blackhawk...he's going to stay there.  Benji Thornton - shows up and is competitive.  You're gonna make Benji stay in the amateur class for a short period of time to know that he's safe to move on.

No purses, no contingency, very limited classes...maybe only by displacement with the opportunity to bump up a class.  No championships.

Sportsman?....I don't have a cool name.  Junior, expert, etc...just understand that it's the next step up.

Yes, we can have contingency and maybe some purses.

This category might be the destination for most racers.  This is the "we're racing for fun.  These riders "get it".  They are having fun, they are chasing a championship.

In recent years, I've watched riders become emotionally and physically drained with the mental problems in trying to run up front as current experts.  It's just not their cup of tea.  The jump can be big.  For some, they thrive, but that isn't everyone.

The sportsman class, like I said, would be the destination class for many riders.  Dawn, this might be where Paul would be.  

There would be more opportunities for a diverse selection of classes.

Pro?...wouldn't be any different than the current expert riders, but it would have to be a little different.  

You couldn't "force" a rider into this category.  I would expect less races, longer races, potential qualifying, a fair purse, and higher entry fees.  

I await more input...

Ok, now that I understand it more, that sounds like a great game plan Dave!  Personally, my only goal is to "make it" someday.  I'm working hard because I want to race in the big leagues.  I want to be the next Geoff May or Josh Hayes.  I know I'll never be factory sponsored (I'm too old at 27  ::)) but the privateer programs are really starting to take off.  I can't wait to go expert.  I'm still really enjoying this year racing in the amateurs, but I know that no one cares what I do here.  A program like you've suggested really could help those of us out that want to keep moving up the ladder.  

So, I assume you have to "prove" yourself in the true amateur leagues before you can move up to the sportsman rank?  That's the biggest kicker for me.  I think you should be stuck in the lower levels until it's noticeable that you're ready to move into the bigger/better group.  I tell you, I've lost so many holeshots this year because I was scared not knowing what that guy in front of me was going to do.  I look forward to being able to trust those guys around me to hold their line.  I also look forward to the greater challenge.  :)

QuoteThis category might be the destination for most racers.  This is the "we're racing for fun.  These riders "get it".  They are having fun, they are chasing a championship.

Yep, Paul would definately be in the "sportsman" class.  He has no desire to run 'pro', he's just looking for some friendly competition and to see who can out BS who after the race.

Dawn   ;)

Ok, so I've got two people interested...LOL!

Next step is to come up with some really specific ideas on the matter...

I think we'd need to move something over to Rules & Regs?

Well, the best way to get these ideas out would be to make an announcement about them at the big races like VIR/Barber/RA and such.  I don't know, pass out flyers at the front gate and such.  Discussing this on the BBS is discussing it with only a very small majority of the actual "family".

QuoteWell, the best way to get these ideas out would be to make an announcement about them at the big races like VIR/Barber/RA and such.  I don't know, pass out flyers at the front gate and such.  Discussing this on the BBS is discussing it with only a very small majority of the actual "family".

     Even though those of us regulars here on the board represent only a small portion of the racers thru-out CCS, word of mouth by us could maybe work wonders. But also if there are too many people involved it would probably never get anywhere because you can't make everyone happy. If we have fewer people debating the subject based on what they are hearing at the track, maybe we could get somewhere.

     At this time I would probably persue the Sportsman class due to money constraints (looking to buy a house). But the 'go fast bug' has been biting at me on and off this year, so I don't know about next season? The recreational racing as of late is needing something more, so maybe next season? I'm going to have to put my head down 1 of these events and see if I can still go fast.

     So Dave, if I remember right when this issue was being discussed before you said that a racer wouldn't be able to bounce back and forth between the top 2 levels, is this correct? I would be concerned that if someone wanted to 'go hard' in the 'Pro' classes that there wouldn't be enough of a variety of classes that they could be competative in without having multiple bikes. What would you suggest as an answer for this? What type of classes would you suggest for the 'Pro' classes? What type of bikes would be allowed in those classes? Would there be requirements to race in the 'Pro' races, other than at least being of the Sportsman level?

QuoteSo Dave, if I remember right when this issue was being discussed before you said that a racer wouldn't be able to bounce back and forth between the top 2 levels, is this correct? I would be concerned that if someone wanted to 'go hard' in the 'Pro' classes that there wouldn't be enough of a variety of classes that they could be competative in without having multiple bikes. What would you suggest as an answer for this? What type of classes would you suggest for the 'Pro' classes? What type of bikes would be allowed in those classes? Would there be requirements to race in the 'Pro' races, other than at least being of the Sportsman level?

You'd have to allow bouncing of some kind.  At a point, a rider may just want to "have fun."  So, keeping them a "pro" might just force them out.

Classes for "pro"...well...something like the premier classes of FUSA/AMA Pro.  Thunderbike type class, a 600 class, a 750 class, a 1000 class.  Something for big twins.  No F40 stuff.   GP bikes.  

I really don't know all the specifics...  I'm makin it up...

Big kicker on making three classes, I forgot to mention before, is that you have now diluted the upper and removed the lower part of the rider demongraphic and thus only class that would qualify for contignency would be the middle class(Junior Ex/ Sportsman, whatever).

Eric,

Although I have not read everyone notes thoroughly, I believe Dave's idea would be great.  Let's face it, there are riders that like racing more than going to track days, even if they will never collect contingency for anything.  They are racers that will never aspire to becoming pro's, which is fine, but that doesn't stop them from competing.  Then there are those that do race professionally and at the club level that would benefit from a profittable skills-based, professional quality (race distance and program appearance and development requirements) that will make CCS more money and attract more attention to both CCS and FUSA.

I volunteer to donate $15 to the generation of a mailing circular (1-pager) that CCS or CCS racers can send to the membership to propose these changes before the open issue period this Fall.  This should probably be completed by the end of August to allow for more discussion.

Yeah, you can't knock out all of the classes and run it like FUSA.  I say, take out the superbike races and give that time to the "amateur" racers.  Take away a paying GP for the "sportsman" class and add a little bit of a payout to SS.  I don't know...something though.  

I guess the biggest thing is, being a "poor" racer I can only do so much.  I can only have one bike, so I depend on alot of the classes to allow me to race.  

i was thinking something along the lines of every 1st year rider goes in2 a beginner classification.  If that rider is 1 who is by far that amazing the head guy at the racetrack or at ccs would make the decision 2 move them 2 amatuer.  ppl could only b in the beginner class 4 there 1st year and they are then put in2 amatuer.  after that they could stay amatuer as long as they wanted unless they have reached a certain lap time at a certain track, more then likely blackhawk, since midwest is there the most.  expert is the final rank, have lightweight class, all sv's buells' and wat not in that class, then middleweight, heavyweight, and unlimited as the only classes.
idk, i just thought that it would a good idea in my mind.

It may not be obvious from most of the responses, but the bulk of the fields don't get any contingency, so for many this argument doesn't even apply.  Although most do strive to achieve better results, it takes time to get there.  This is my 4th season and I have never collected contingency, but I finished 4th in the LWGP championship and my laptimes aare continuously getting better.  

At this point, I know where I want to compete, expert/pro.  I am learning a pace that will allow me to improve every weekend, so maybe I will be a top 5-8 competitor soon.

I think many of the things we have proposed are good for CCS in general and bad for some competitors in others.  But it would become a system of it's own, where racers truly rise up through the ranks.  If you want contingency, race at a level that allows it.  If you just want wood, which is what most 4th and 5th place finisher get anyway, stay an amatuer.  

Please don't be offended, but a racing system of advancement shouldn't be based on a lazy few.  It should have some level of integrity that says, this racer is qualified, not by points, but by achievement.  Most FIM licenses aren't granted unless you have had a National Championship of some sort at least at the AMA level.  What does that tell you about the expectations of the classes?

If we check ourselves, we may find that we are better at this sport than we give ourselves credit for.

I am one of the people who probably belonged in expert, but chose to stay Am for a few rounds.

25% of the reason - the contingency.  Since I was fast enough to be in contention for a win, it almost felt silly go throw away the potential to make back several hundred bucks a weekend.  $180/win for two GT races (GTO, GTU), $70 in Michelin money, plus whatever else I'd collect from VP, Hotbodies, etc.  Hell if I played my cards right, I could MAKE money at it, running as an Am.

The remaining 75% - I only raced 2.5 weekends in 2002 (my first weekend, I ran ONE class... hence the ".5")  My first weekend in 2003 I crashed in morning practice, breaking my shoulder.  I eventually ran 2 weekends in 2003 - Barber in August and Daytona ROC.  Starting off the 2004 season, I knew I wanted to go expert mid-year.  I just wanted to get myself back in the game a bit.  Re-acquaint myself with riding and racing.  

Had there not been ANY Am contingency, I still probably would've run Am for a few rounds this year.  Maybe just not as many.  The contingency made it MUCH easier to not rush up to expert.

Now that the season is 1/2 over, and I STILL have not seen any of my Michelin contingency yet (should be close to $600 by now) I realized that it was the contingency keeping me there.  I wanted to go faster, get better, go beat the guys that everyone looks up to at a MW regional event... Hall, Janisch, Rosno, Purk, Tez, etc.  Rather than sit around and wait for money that, my luck, won't show up until December, I decided to say screw it and bump up.

And I'm glad I did.  Expert has been good for ~2 seconds.  I should've moved up sooner.  I am learning a tremendous amount each time I set foot on the track with the rest of the white plate guys.  I can't wait for Barber - I want to hit the FUSA classes and see what I can do.  With any luck - I will have my AMA license in time to run at least a partial season next year.  I don't expect to be the next Ben Spies, or be the next Yamaha factory guy.  But I have the desire to always improve, always do better.  Can't do that unless I continuously look to race against faster guys.

My vote, based on the current class setup?  Drop Am contingency.  OR lower it considerably.  Michelin drops to $20/win from $70.  Then crank the expert stuff up.  Give the Ams a little something to show the appreciation for using the product - but not enough to keep them staying Am longer than they should be.

Or - roll with a class setup like SD has proposed.  Dave - you have email.

Jim

It's getting pretty bright in this area of the www.

 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

QuotePlease don't be offended, but a racing system of advancement shouldn't be based on a lazy few.  It should have some level of integrity that says, this racer is qualified, not by points, but by achievement.

Agreed - my feelings exactly.  

Jim, Sean...

Recognize that neither of you would have been in my first tier classification that has no contingency.  You would have both been in the second one with contingency and some purse money.  So, you would have been racing with some pretty fast company, but I wouldn't see myself in that classification...I'd be looking for the money classes.

I have to admit i didn't read every post on here.I was at Gingerman this past weekend. The grids didn't seem very large to me , my impression of what i witnessed was that there were really no experts out there.If you take away Brian Hall,Larry Denning ,Joe Gill, Taylor Knapp ande Jesse Janisch .
Joe gill won one race cruising around do hi 25's fell down with about a 12 sec lead in the last corner,picked up the bike, at about the 4th lap of 8, was about 12 sec behind then , passed the leaders and won by over 6 secs. His fastest lap was a 24.5 after the crash.Maybe some of the faster experts were not in attendance? When i think back to the mid 90's there were 12 guys that could run near the front and be maybe a sec only off the pace.The riders I mentioned earlier could all do 24's and with the exception of Knapp and Hall did 23's.In my opinion they are moving riders up to soon. I think we need a class structure like Loudon where there is a junior class.  Jim

I'm for the change, and understand I still may not qualify, but if I petitioned to be moved up, unheard of I know, then that is my choice.  That's the essence of an advancement system.

Maybe this should only be done on an experimental basis at tracks that have track championships, like Blackhawk and Loudon.  These track generally have enormous attendance, and could probably survive the class shuffling without a lot of problems, Although, a weekend in which attendance is light might make experiementing much simplier.

I like the idea of a three tier class structure a lot!  

Maybe I missed this in some of the earlier posts, but would the first and second levels race a 2 wave race as is sometimes done with expert and ams now?  If not, how could you get all three classes run in a weekend?

Also, is there any way to put this proposal in front of CCS and get a vote on it?

Again, I say we proactively create (write and pay for) our own mailer, get it to CCS, then have them mail it to the membership.  We can get the members opinion and make CCS aware of what we are suggesting.

At the Mid-Ohio AMA race, I spent some time talking to Kenny Abbott.  Just from talking to him, I think I am beginning to understand the madness of his job within CCS and CCE.  He is very enthusiastic about his job, but he gets stifled by upper management, as we all do.  However, I think if the membership were to be proactive in planning and cultivating new ideas for how to develop CCS, with reasonable lead time, then we could off load most of the work from the CCS staff, which might make things happen for us.

I think there is no reason you cannot havea competitive amatuer class. Contingency is not the answer here.  The answer is quite obvious- as an amatuer spend less money on brand new bikes, high tech paint jobs,  a 25 foot plus race trailer, the trcuk necessary to haul that beast, race gas and slick tires.  

Spend more money on track days, instruction from schools, better handling components on the bike, and pre-entries!

The reason a racer usually only lasts 3 years is due to overabundant enthusiasm.  I see way too many amatuers (read most) who are spending way to much money to go slow, crash their brains out and destroy equipment that is not even paid for.  The riders I see who have been doing this for 5+ years started out kinda slow, in a peice of crap pickup, using second hand bikes (even third and fourth hand FZR's) and slowly and methodically grew within the sport.  Not all of these riders are super duper fast- but they compete every time they are out on the track and do it well.  More amatuers would be able to move to expert if they showed better judgement in the first year or two of racing.  There is absolutley no reason for an amatuer to rack up $25K on the credit cards in one season of racing!  It happened to my best friend and 6 years later of no racing he has paid it off. Three classes just makes smaller classes.  Combining level one and two on the grid then racing level three seperately still makes for a few extra races by the end of the weekend.  It is hard enough to get what we have now.  I bleieve you all when you say there is a problem.  If there is not a problem we have no reason to strive to be better- but I really don't think making three rider classifications or shelling out a bunch of cash to amatuers is the way.  

I thought about this and tell me what you all think of this.  Instead of a third rider classification, what about a 'Threshold' class.  A class where the truly uninitiated racer, or the guy who just has progressed as far as they will, can race.  Maybe hold it twice in one weekend scoring it like outdoor motocross on the two finishes.  The new rider gets three weekends in this class.  If they are ready to move up sooner- they may.  They may not race any other class during the weekends they are in the 'Threshhold" class.  Once they have moved out of threshold racing- they can only go back if allowed by the race director of the region and only due to safety concerns for the racers.  No contingency for this class.  Maybe set a minimum time and once met- auto move up to amatuer.  This way you do not pollute the amatuer ranks where true racecraft is learned with guys that are not ready and could pose a danger to others.  I also believe if contingency is given for amatuers, that any amatuer lapping in the same time (now that we have transponders) as the top 75% of experts consistently gets bumped- no whining, no ?'s , no sandbagging.  This frees up contingency gfor true learning amatuers.  Just an idea of course.

Ok, I know I started this thread with the qualifying question, but I think S. Dave has some excellent points that I would like to add to / touch on.
First, let me say that the am/ex question also boils down to desire or pride, I was informed upon my return from about ten years off that I would have to do rider school and return as an amatuer.  Not happy, I decided to buckle down and ended up turning 16's @RRR in rider school, earning my white plates back before any racing.  Some people like challenge, some don't, I was just afraid (no offense) to be in the back of a pack of yellow plates.
To the new organization point, I think the 3 tier idea is good, but I think we all need to concentrate on an idea that has been kicked about in all forms of European bike racing and that is "owner/operator".  A race organization owned, managed, operated by racers.  A 100% return to the people who deserve it, the riders !  Who better to market to spectators?  Who better to make decisions on purse structure?
You can't tell me that if an organization like this existed and was properly marketed that we couldn't pull in a few thousand spectators per event... that is at least an extra 20K to divy up among the racers.  I honestly believe that if this existed, you could be in the black if you finished top 5 every event.  I know the logistics are daunting, but I know some very smart racers (myself included :) ) who could do it.

Any takers?

 ;D

I'm game.  I posted a note about a year ago about a hostel take over of CCS.

Maybe what we should try to do is figure a way we can gain greater influence in the rule making and the future direction of CCS, especially related to rider skill level and race distance/purses.

Food for thought...

Is this an amateur/expert problem in CCS or a CCS/AMA problem?  Guys that are competitive in AMA races are doing club-level stuff because that's where the money is.

There are pro classes now--it's FUSA and AMA.

Heather

SDub (Stumpy's wife),

Good point.  Personally, I would like to live the fantasy of racing professionally, and being competitive, even if it not in the AMA.  Car racers can make a lot more money than motorcycle racers, while racing less than we do on weekends and participating in very small organizations.  Maybe it's the fans, manufacturers and the promoters that make small venue car racing so popular.  How do we get that racing where and how we do it?

QuoteCar racers can make a lot more money than motorcycle racers, while racing less than we do on weekends and participating in very small organizations.  Maybe it's the fans, manufacturers and the promoters that make small venue car racing so popular.  How do we get that racing where and how we do?

Clarify this point.....

Are we talking Nascar vs. AMA? or are we talking at the club racing level?  

If it's the club level, where are you getting your data?  When my family was racing cars...  you MAY break even on a weekend, but it's still money out of your pocket.

Dawn  

First, Jim...

Yeah, the turn out at Gingerman is kind of a joke.

Car racing is very expensive.  For local races at Madison, Wisconsin, I had guys that would buy $14 a gallon race fuel from me to put in their $40k motors.  Haulers, trailer, tires, wheels, multple shock set ups...

For a purse kind of like Unlimited GP.

Racers running a program?

I'm sorry, but that's a joke.  AHRMA has a committee run their stuff.  People are elected, etc.  You need someone that is a dictator there to make decisions, right or wrong.  

If you went to the race track for a club race and polled twenty people about their suspension set up, I'd bet that you'd nearly come up with the wrong answers everytime.

Car racing is done like this....  You go to the people with real knowledge...a shop that specializes in this kind of racing, etc. and you talke with them and maybe work with them.  Bike racing seems to work like this...noob goes to his dealership and gets bad information, generally, and then gets maybe gets hooked up with the new amatuer champion...who might not know anything.  There is a great lack of respect, and sometimes contempt, for shops that have actually performed at the highest levels in motorcycle road racing.  There's this feeling that riders think that they are "new" or something and that they can "figure" it all out on their own.  

A smarter guy goes to a particular shop, and makes the investment.  Guy goes fast, now it's "'cause they go money..."  

Pro classes?  As an expert, you can buy your FUSA license...get some points and you can get your AMA license.

Dawn,
I am not extremely familiar with car racing, but I saw a flyer for what looked to be a locally run and promoted event.  The purse was paid out to like 24th place.  It wasn't much money, but the concept of being able to pay purses so deep was the premise of my point.  Car racing itself is understandably more expensive, but that doesn't change my perception that a car racer can "win" more money than a motorcycle racer for racing less per weekend.  There's got to be a reason for it: higher fees, more and regular spectators, richer sponsorships.  The money's got to come from some where.

Dave,

I've got my FUSA license, but that doesn't make me competitive.  I still have many things to learn.  For the last two seasons I have taken some risks with my choice of racing classes.  I was trying to teach myself things, mainly how to ride, then realized that I needed to settle my focus and get some help.  I also wanted become more embedded in the sport, so I've been attending as many pro races as I can afford to just so I can be exposed to what I think I want to aspire to.  

I firmly believe, it's not the tire choice, it's the riding technique and how you setup your bike that will make you faster.  An important part of that is whom you listen to.  I'd like to thank you for all of the attention you've given my racing effort.  I know it's largely because of your help that has helped me shave massive amounts of time off of my laps.  

For someone who really only started riding bikes 4 years ago, I'm not doing too bad.  

Sean, thanks.

Competitive...ah, good one...

Define it?

I started riding at eighteen years of age in August of 1986...Made the commitment to go racing that December, and started in April of 1987.

Being competitive has to do with personal victories often times.  Afterall, there is only one real winner.

Really, we're just competing against our bike, the track, and our lack of knowledge sometimes...some find the knowledge.  Others don't seek it out.

Amatuer/expert problem a CCS problem?

Good question.  It's been this way for a long, long time.  But has the market changed.  I remember once that a particular school program owner commented on how the bikes got faster and faster every year, but the noob lap time remained the same.  Take those bikes to the same places with the racers, and the times have dropped...not as much as you think, but they have dropped as the technological improvements came.

And I would agree...the "slower" riders have a reasonable set feel for how fast to go.  Might be related to a general average of physical reaction time...something.  Meanwhile, some riders know the places to get the set up knowledge, and then exploit it.  I'm not gifted.  I'm pretty average, but with my experience and knowing where to get more knowledge...I can go pretty quick.

Would having a good group of faster riders competing in an event that had a reasonable purse event after event be more attractive to a potential specator?  Would a reasonable purse be more attractive to certain riders?  Would some riders be satisfied with having more of a laid back racing structure?  

Dave,

I won't say much in response to last set of questions, I want to see what others have to say.  I do see one underlying thread in all of your questions though, and that is that we are racers trying to "guess" what spectators (the none racing type) want to see at an event.  Are any of us good at guessing that?  How do we get "good" at it?

What do they want to see?

I'll run...

Who's seen a GSXR1000?  Yeah, big deal.  And Yosh GSXR1000 is certainly pretty interesting.  But Mladin hustling it around...now that's interesting.

Personalities are important.  What really blows is when the competition at some tracks rages around "points"...it's good to see someone win.  And go fast to do it.  Was it exciting to see the lap record get set?  The people doing it are part of the personalities.  It's good that we're at least getting some track side interviews at Blackhawk.  Puts a voice with the helmeted head.  Stuff like that is good.  

Local car tracks...those guys aren't Matt Kennseth or anything, but they come back week after week.  That's good...they are the personalities.

Good racing can breed personalities too.

Presentation is king. Our regional events might as well be junkyards.

Maybe we should each pick a personality (characher) like the WWF has.  :)

That could make for some exciting racing. :D

Maybe as a riders' group we can make Blackhawk event as popular and as promoted as WSMC events.  They have the RRW.com 250 class, the Toyota 200 qualifier and finale, and a few other premiere pro spectacles.  I think there should be a Blackhawk 250K or something again, some sort of fan day, some sort of season long qualifying promotion with all qualifiers battling it out at a local finale.  That last idea can really build a promotion within itself.

Let's build a better MW region.  Run some experimental programs next year and see if they can be expanded to other regions in the future.

ecumike,

I've got mine - Monsta da Cycle Psycho!

I have seen a few interesting points and would like to address them.  First, as far as an organization run by racers- CCS is run from the top down by many former and some current racers.  Anyone that thinks Kevin does not do this from the deepest regions of his heart are wrong.  Yes CCS is owned by Clear Channel and that has it's good as well as bad points.  Spectators- this is one we have been try ing to figure out for a long time.  Our best spectator turn out came the Sunday after the AMA Supercross.  We advertised on the Jumbo $5 off to stub holders.  It worked great!  Advertising on radio and in print is expensive as it gets and not worth the return at this point.  WSMC does not get any more spectators than a in the red CCS event in the middle of the summer here in Phoenix( translation- such a bad turnout racers don't even show).  WSMC does a lot of handshake deals and also has the Huth family who owns the track driving alot of what happens wiht sponsors.  Most tracks we go to as bike racers- we are second class citizens and they just wish some IRL team would rent the track for twice what we pay.  Now I have some ideas to get spectators in and I would like to know what everyone thinks.  First, have someone (in my region it will be me) send in a blurb and results (no negative info-just good stuff) into RRW after the event.  Continued next post.

Second- if you have first time guests coming out, try to have them there at least for the UNGP races and some of your regions premiere events.  You can try to get us on public acces cable like Wayne's World (Tried that here and the guys went flaky after the first event.)  Quit complaining about the gate fee.  If you want purse money and not $100 race entries- that is where some of that ching comes from.  Talk to your announcers and keep them informed about things throughout the day.  We can't get around with such short mic cords!  If your announcer gets crabby about people coming to talk to them- get them fired- it is thier job.  Make it a show not just a race-wave on cooldown laps.  I know it feels dumb like you are showboating but the non racer crowd loves it and if you all do it you will not feel silly.  Keep your pits clean.  I have seen the cleanest pits from the poorest racers and some of the most trachy from the richest.  Tidy it up and this goes for your help.  Keep shirts on, the cussing down and the sauce away until quitting time- look sharp for the uninitiated.  Some one mentioned it looking like a yard sale and they are right.  Good presentation can enhance any budget racers appearance.  Lastly, expect the same from you CCS staff.  Be polite and realize stuff happens- but if you see something or have a suggestion- pipe up and if they don't want to hear it let Kevin know. Just remember not every suggestion will be acted upon but we can at least act like we tink it's a good idea right? :o  If no one in your region is promoting the sport- give it a shot. You will get no budget (just like us) but if it works, maybe CC will see it and BUY into it.  I am really open to suggestions.  In the Southwest region we probably have one of the largest motorcycle communities in the country, rideable weather year round (unless you ride a Harley- 80 degree sunny days only please) and we are lucky to pull over 75 true non-connected to the sport spectators.  Let's keep the ideas flying here- I have heard some good suggestions already!

At Blackhawk, the management loves us as motorcycle racers...and they are hardcore SCCA GT1 competitors.  

Events need to be around the same time of year every year.  That's how AMA events succeed.  FUSA events even work that way.  The FUSA Loudon Classic is the same time as the AMA Loudon event.  

Announcers are good.  I keep mine informed.

We have a good amount of good guys that make the show look good.  

Bad side...we have pretty big entries, but we have no one writing about it.  So, unless you beat your own drum, which I do, no one may ever know what you did at Blackhawk.  This was the same problem fifteen years ago at Blackhawk.  That IS a CCS problem.  People have tried to do it, but there were issues on who's ownership the writings were, etc.

Did I mention the fact that I'm a road racer and that I find a seventy race format dull and boring.  Unless I'm racing in thirty races, I'm sick and tired of the event by about race seven.

PROMOTE YOURSELF...TAKE A GOOD LONG LOOK AT THE PRESENTATION THAT YOUR PIT DISPLAYS AND ASK YOURSELF WOULD YOU GIVE THIS GUY MONEY. I am lucky to have a sponsor ...in return I keep my equipment in showroom condition as well as do at least 20 promos a year,(away from the track)I see riders that are faster than me on equipment that looks like crap wondering why nobody wants their name on their bike.If you want to be supported as a pro you must look like a pro.Everyone wants to back a winner.It may make you feel better to say you beat so and so on your beat up piece of crap but it won't get you sponsors.Image is everything...look at Kyle Petty,the highest paid midpack driver,but he has game.Insted of decking the head on your motor to get 2hp,clean and paint your bike and ride allitle harder...just my 2cts. :)

I'm with hooter on this one. The first year I had My X FUSA bike, the local dealer asked me to loan it to them for the show at the civic center because it was clean and pretty. Being honored I said sure and thought it was cool. Later they redid my heads for free. I'm an amature doing this for sport and just acting and looking presentable WILL help you continue.
  Then, when I helped out at a demo ride, (which I had a ton of fun doing) I was introduced as a dealer sponsored thunderbike rider (remember I'm an old idiot amature having fun) I was later payed by a fresh engine. Just being a normal friendly guy and keeping your stuff clean, can be something a local dealer will talk about being associated with. It can pay suprising dividends.